Ice dance query around Domnina&Shabalin's meteoric rise

La Rhumba said:

Is it the case that in America you don't have secret Judging anymore? I heard that was changed for domestic competitions?

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The US never used secret judging for domestic competitions.

When hosting ISU-sanctioned international competitions, they have to use ISU rules.

chuckm said:

Yes you can. Look at the Ice Dance protocols for the JGPF. The judges are not secret in the JGP. Judge #1 on the Panel list is #1 on the protocol.

Have fun booing.

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I haven't checked this and I probably wont. However, can you tell me if it is the same judges thoughout the various phases CD, OD, FD? and are Names given?

Joe

gkelly said:

I'm not going to get into the question of what defines a sport.

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Understandable!

I do think that we've seen a lot more unpredictable results post-1998 with required elements and required fall deductions, and especially post-new judging system, than used to be the case....

With the new system, overall impression is less important than in the old, and the details are more important. So there's less room for preconceptions to overshadow the actual performances.

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Good. Score one for COP.

Never as much as in freestyle, but then the actual performances in dance don't tend to be a volatile -- most of the elements are such that mistakes don't cancel out all or most of their value the way falling on or popping a jump does. So basic skating skills and presentation, which are more subjectively judged, play a bigger role in the judgments. And those things tend not to change hugely from one performance to another and to improve gradually with experience, until injuries, aging, etc., start to hold the skaters back.

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Very interesting. That IS different. I don't really understand how performances by the same team could fail to differ over time, though. That's very counterintuitive, but maybe when I learn more....

Even in the old days, it wasn't totally predictable which teams would move up over time and which wouldn't. New teams on the scene might debut a little lower than experienced teams of the same skill level, or a little higher if they're political support was especially strong...

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Their political support??? That's what I mean. That shouldn't be considered normal (IMHO)!

Beginning ice dance fans might have only 2 or 3 criteria to judge which teams they think are better than the others ... Experienced judges might be considering 20 or more criteria to make their decisions, although each will have their own priorities of which are most important.

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Fair enough.

But as for reasons why people watch:

1) Because they enjoy the intrigue of a contest of politics/perception, real or imagined, as much as they would enjoy a contest of technique. Perhaps more -- it's easier for fans who without much technical training to come up with political explanations than with technical explanations for results they don't agree with, and fun to feel morally superior to the judges.

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I hope this is tongue in cheek. It would be a terrible argument for a sport. (Pace Mathman!)

But more important,
2) Because they enjoy the actual skating for its own sake, apart from what the judges think.

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Sure, that's a given - but surely it is a problem if there is often a gap between the judged results and what spectators - even knowledgeable ones - think the results should have been.

Anyway, thanks for your informative post. I'll keep all this in mind!

Joesitz said:

I haven't checked this and I probably wont. However, can you tell me if it is the same judges thoughout the various phases CD, OD, FD? and are Names given?

Joe

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The Panel is listed for each segment, and it is always the same names in the same order. So the judges listed in the protocol are the same ones as in the panel listing.

I want to thank everybody who posted for a very interesting thread. There isn't much to add...so of course, I'll add it:

1. The Kerrs- The Kerrs would do themselves a huge favor if they would arrive at their GP events well trained. At Skate America this year, they performed poorly and finished 5th behind G&P (US), P&B (FR), and M&Z (US), all teams that they have beaten in the past. And they did something similar at SC last year. Showing up well trained right out of the gate is something the DomShabs did, and the Kerrs didn't do this year. Moving up the ice dance ladder is tricky enough without making it harder this way. (Check out John's recent diary, http://www.sineadandjohn.com/diary.asp, where he confirms this, saying:

We were a little off the pace at Skate America and we really did not deserve to be in the medals as was our pre-stated goal

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.

2. The rules change. This year, a step sequence was dropped in the FD and changes were made in the lifts. These were changes that favor good lifting couples (D&L, DomShabs, K&N) and don't favor good step couples (B&A). B&A's lifts have never been particularly innovative, and it's affecting them this year, as well as the tacky redo of the 1988 That's Entertainment dance of the Becks of Austria (JohnnyCoop is right on this) Plus B&A arriving at the Grand Prix undertrained has been bad for them, too.

3. The rise of the DomShabs-It's always been the case that the designated 2nd couple from a country has no political advantages (Canada & Russia do this). The meteoric rise is more like undergraded a bit last year + overgraded a bit this year = big apparent change. Plus this year's rules are more favorable to DomShabs than last year's.

4. Cultural tastes-The best example I can give of this is the Canadian commentary on the waltz CD in 1998. A side by side comparison is given of Bourne & Kraatz and Grishuk & Platov. B&K are spot on the beat, but their leg lines do not always match. G&P deliberately miss the beat to get a better leg line. Both couples appear to be intentionally doing these things. My crackpot theory on this is that the roots of North American ice dance tend to lie in Fred Astaire, musicals, ballrooms & tap more than ballet. A tap dancer off the beat is a terrible thing and oh so obvious. And leg line in fast tapping is not of high importance or even achievable. Ballet seems to be the main roots of Russian dance-leg line is all (or why else invent toe shoes, I say).

And so we have fast stepping, spot on the beat, B&A and bendy girl no steps K&N and lovely line Domnina. In some ways they are competing in different sports entirely.

And another effect is that in the musical/tap frame, the key dancer is the Guy (Astaire/Agosto, for example) and it's OK if the girl just follows & keeps up, and in ballet it's OK if the guy is just a third leg (can we say Kostamarov/Goncharov), but the girl must be stunning and have great leg line (can we say Grushina). So it's not OK for Belbin to be the lesser of the two with not as good leg line in the ballet frame.

Judges and for that matter audiences can't help but by affected by what they truly prefer. So NA judging and European judging in dance is just not going to be that uniform.

5. Another couple that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is Davis & White, the only couple this year to achieve all level 4's in a Grand Prix event. They are doing a more interesting Polovetsian Dances routine than DomShabs, too. While they won't be a factor at Worlds this year, they have improved hugely this year, and if they keep this up, the dogfight at US nationals in dance is going to be Intense for the 2nd & 3rd spots.

Fascinating read, as usual, Doris.

I particularly liked the comparison of N.American and Russia differences in ballroom dances,. I being a N.America always look for Fred in the competition.
However, that works for the waltz, it does not work for Latin dances which so few skaters can manage except to mimic hollywood version of a latin dance.

I'm not sure about polkas, quicksteps and fox trots, which do not have a hold in balletic dancing. And then there is the pasa doble which requires classic spanish lines as well as arms and attitudes.

Joe

I really rather think that the old arguement about "The reason why the Russians are always so successful in Dance is due to style/technique preferences by European judges" is a little outdated, at least at the present time. It was one thing back in the days of couples like Usova/Zhulin, Klimova/Ponomarenko, Annenko/Sretensky, and several others. However, I do not think that Domnina/Shabalin by any stretch, at this point, are even CLOSE to that level so I don't think this "style preference" has too much to do with their elevation, especially since right now there are other non-Russian European couples who are doing it just as well if not better.

BTW, the Becks were Austrian, not German.

I don't buy the argument that the "#2 couple" must wait for the "#1couple" to retire before they can move up the rankings in ice dance or be recognized.

Belbin & Agosto were the #2 couple to Lang & Tchernyshev but that did not stop ISU judges giving them higher marks when both teams went head to head at the Four Continents and World Championships.

Annissina & Piezerat were the #2 couple to Moniotte & Lanvanchy but that did not stop ISU judges giving them higher marks in head to head match-ups.

I think the reason that Dubreil & Lauzon were never able to overtake Bourne & Kraatz in competition was simply that they were not good enough to do so.

The person who pointed out the rules change this summer decreasing the value of footwork and increasing the value of lifts may be on to something. This rule change has hurt the scoring potential of Belbin & Agosto who have the toughest footwork and helped couples like Dubreil & Lauzon who are weak with footwork but strong with lifts.

Domnina & Shabalin are strong with neither footwork nor lifts, so I still think their rise as with so many Russian couples is primarily due to politics.

layman said:

I think the reason that Dubreil & Lauzon were never able to overtake Bourne & Kraatz in competition was simply that they were not good enough to do so.

The person who pointed out the rules change this summer decreasing the value of footwork and increasing the value of lifts may be on to something. This rule change has hurt the scoring potential of Belbin & Agosto who have the toughest footwork and helped couples like Dubreil & Lauzon who are weak with footwork but strong with lifts.

Domnina & Shabalin are strong with neither footwork nor lifts, so I still think their rise as with so many Russian couples is primarily due to politics.

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I would agree with this with a few minor additions....Dubreuil/Lauzon never passed Bourne/Kraatz while they were both skating because at the time D/L were not as good. Now I think it would be a lot closer.

I disagree with saying D/L are weak in footwork. They struggle sometimes with twizzles, but actually have excellent and difficult footwork. Their strongest point is their lifts.

Dom/Shab's rise this year is so apparent, in part (to me at least) because they are not outstanding in any way.

I went back to look at the order of finish from last years worlds:

Leaving out those who have retired:

DenSta
DubLau
BelAgo
DelSchoes
DomShab
Faiella Scali
Gregory Petukhov
Kerr & Kerr
Khoklova Novitski.
Beier and Beier
Fraser/Lukanin (are they still skating?)
Pechalat Bourzat
Matthews & Zavozin


Considering that Belbin / Agosto and the Kerrs both had preparation problems this year, the more questions might be:

What is behind the meteoric rise of Khoklova/Novitski?
What is behind the meteoric fall of the DelSchoes and Faiella Scali?

Or why can the DelSchoes never seem to get a break?

As to Dubreuil / Lauzon
At NHK, their 3 step sequences were 2 level threes and one level two. At the Grand Prix Final, the caller gave them one level two, one level three and one level four. They are not the top of the trees for steps, particularly in the twizzle sequences where they lapse into connected three turns occasionally. OTOH, their lifts and the DenStas are the best in the world IMO.

DORISPULASKI said:

Or why can the DelSchoes never seem to get a break?

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If I were important to the cosmos, I would say because they are one of my all-time favorite dance teams, and that is the kiss of death. But I'm not that important to the cosmos.

DORISPULASKI said:

Or why can the DelSchoes never seem to get a break?

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They've inherited Bourne and Krantz's title "Judges' bitches"? I gather they've displeased some Powers That Be and are treated accordingly.

I liked them better than any of the podium finishers in Turin (in the OD I thought he was the only male with anything like a true Latin (as opposed to ballroom phony latin) line.

La Rhumba said:

No you're not, that does apply, and IMO was the reason why D&L did not win Worlds last season, even though they deserved to, but sadly for them it was DenStav's *turn*.

Unlike chuck though, I do believe that Worlds this year is fairly open, in that it really depends who skates the best as to where the medals end up - even Gold - but call me a cock-eyed optimist!

I also still have hope that if DelSchoes pull off a great performance they can make the podium.

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Well i don't think D/L deserved to win gold last year, nor they do this year. And they have been always at least 3-4 places behind Den/Sta, so should be happy(and they were happy) with their silver medal

I got the impression that D/L were disappointed with their silver medal last year. Really, that's why they are still skating this year--they want the World Championship they believe they deserve, and the OGM in 2010 as well.

I do not feel that they are on the same level as Den/Sta, DelShoes and B/A. They still struggle with footwork and twizzles, and they do not have the speed of the other top teams. They stumbled in both of their last two FDs but do not seem to be penalized as harshly as the other teams.

I think that D/L are doomed to be disappointed once again. They will likely be passed by Den/Sta at Worlds, and by DomShabs as well. DomShabs beat them in the FD at the GPF, and were just 0.20 behind them overall. DomShabs have scored higher with each performance (in at least one segment of the competition) and seem destined to improve again at Worlds.

chuckm said:

I do not feel that they are on the same level as Den/Sta, DelShoes and B/A. They still struggle with footwork and twizzles, and they do not have the speed of the other top teams. They stumbled in both of their last two FDs but do not seem to be penalized as harshly as the other teams.

I think that D/L are doomed to be disappointed once again. They will likely be passed by Den/Sta at Worlds, and by DomShabs as well. DomShabs beat them in the FD at the GPF, and were just 0.20 behind them overall. DomShabs have scored higher with each performance (in at least one segment of the competition) and seem destined to improve again at Worlds.

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People say this over and over, and I think it may have been true a few years ago but isn't any longer. They do not struggle with footwork. They have excellent footwork. And they do have equal, if not better at times, speed to the other top teams you've mentioned. I don't know if you've seen them in person recently, but if you have, this part is undeniable. They do struggle with twizzles at times. As for not being penalized for mistakes as heavily as other teams, that's just simply not true. How do you think they were beaten in the FD by Dom/Shab? They scored about 4-5 points lower than their other two season outings — because they had errors.

As for being doomed to disappointment...I fear you are correct, but hope you're wrong, lol. I like their programs best of all the top teams this year and am rooting for them to win that world title. But I think Denk/Stav are undeniably the favorites at this point, and the judges are just looking for a way to elevate Dom/Shab.

rain said:

But I think Denk/Stav are undeniably the favorites at this point, and the judges are just looking for a way to elevate Dom/Shab.

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Why would the judges be looking for a way to elevate Dom/Shab? What is so special about this team? Or is it yet another political situation?

Well, that's exactly the question this thread has been devoted to.

Politically, of course the Russian federation and Russian judges want to see Domnina/Shabalin place well. Just as the Canadians want it for Dubreuil/Lauzon, Americans for Belbin/Agosto, the French for Delobel/Schoenfelder, etc.

Whether the Russians are successfully able, or even trying to, politick judges from other federations into wanting to elevate the Russian team apart from how well they skate in relation to their competitors is another question.

Observers who are unimpressed with Dom/Shab's skating and/or avid supporters of any of those competitors are inclined to look to politics to explain results that they don't see themselves in the skating.

But that doesn't mean that the judges might not be honestly impressed. They've always had very good body line and soft flow on the ice, and if their power or other skating qualities on the ice, which are hard for us to discern on video, have also improved, it wouldn't be surprising for judges to start scoring them higher.

See DorisPulaski's point 4 in post #85 in this thread for explanations about why some fans and some judges might prefer Belbin/Agosto and others might prefer Domnina/Shabalin, among teams of that age group and skill level.

I don't doubt that both teams are being supported by their own federations as medal prospects for 2010.

rain said:

People say this over and over, and I think it may have been true a few years ago but isn't any longer. They do not struggle with footwork. They have excellent footwork. And they do have equal, if not better at times, speed to the other top teams you've mentioned. I don't know if you've seen them in person recently, but if you have, this part is undeniable. They do struggle with twizzles at times. As for not being penalized for mistakes as heavily as other teams, that's just simply not true. How do you think they were beaten in the FD by Dom/Shab? They scored about 4-5 points lower than their other two season outings — because they had errors.

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Sorry, but I don't see better footwork OR better speed in D/L. Two stumbles in 3 FDs so far this year? Not a good record. Their FDs last year and this are much, much slower and more leisurely than anything the other top teams are doing. That they are stumbling at such low performance speed doesn't point to an improvement at all.

As for D/L's scores in relation to the other top teams, let's look at them.

100.12, 97.78, 101.12 DenSta SA, TEB, GPF
98.81, 97.38, 95.50 D/L SC, NHK, GPF
93.13, 94.99, 96.17 DomShabs CoC, CoR, GPF
97.72, 89.20, 91.72 DelShoes TEB, CoR, GPF

Bear in mind that D/L got a 1.00 deduction for an extended lift at the GPF, so their score before the deduction (compared to SC and NHK) was 96.50. That is not 5 points less than their previous scores, and just 0.88 less than their score at NHK. Considering that Marie-France had a BAD stumble on the twizzle (and nearly fell), that 0.88 was a small price to pay, compared to the blow DelShoes took for Olivier's momentary foot down at CoR.

What is most interesting is that DomShabs are the only team among these 4 that had consistently HIGHER scores from one competition to the next. Anyone who thinks DomShabs won't be on the World podium better think again.

lanadd said:

Well i don't think D/L deserved to win gold last year, nor they do this year. And they have been always at least 3-4 places behind Den/Sta, so should be happy(and they were happy) with their silver medal

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That was my honest opinion as a Den&Stav fan of old, and not previously a D&L Fan till last year's Worlds. I felt that watching TV [all 3 sections on Eurosport] and later reading Albert Saadi's live report in Skatewatch, a British newsletter, of a reporter whose opinion I respect, and I would also class as *neutral*.

My post was replying to Spun Silver, who asked why in Dance a couple who aren't expected to win, but produce a stunning performance, still can't win, as opposed to Figure Skating. IMO last year's Worlds was an example of that - not as blatant as Moniott & Lavanchy not winning over G&P at 94 Worlds - but nonetheless it was evident that DenStav had slight errors and were slightly *off* whereas D&L were flawless, but were never going to win - thus is the way of Dance comps.....However I do not begrudge DenStav's world title at all, as IMO they should've won in 2004 but were denied, so you could say it all evens out, but that shouldn't be the case should it?

There is a translation of an interview with Domnina/Shabalin on FSU in which DomShabs acknowledge that the ascendancy to being the #1 Russian team was a factor in their elevation to the status of medal contenders.

http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=45706

So it seems politics does play a major role in ice dance. Of course, being the #1 Russian team carries a lot more weight than being the #1 Canadian team or the #1 French team or the #1 US team......