Judging controversy

rinkmaster · Feb 11, 2007

kittycat26 said:
It sounds like the Tara Lipinski effect to me. I unfortunately was never a big supporter of the view that spaz and spunk should equate to heightened second mark scores. Unfortunately it is a view the judges have embraced, and Lipinski and the Hughes sisters are pinnacles of evidence of this.

I totally disagree with you here kitty. Flaring up a program with facial movements such as smiling (when it is appropriate), eye movements, being happy and even sad at times, if it helps sell the program then it enhances the value of the program. I believe choreography goes alot deeper then properly timed arm waves and crossovers that land on the beat of the music. Skaters with great charisma on the ice are what I love. As I stated, they should sell the program as much as they can, and should therefore be rewarded for those spunky movements, they may not be things they do with their skates but they unquestionably increase the overall performance value.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 11, 2007

Mathman said:
The supposed rationale was that if the judges were anonymous then they wouldn't have to go along with the deals brokered by their federations.

For instance, suppose we had had the benefit of secret judging at Salt Lake City. Gailhauget calls up LeGougne and says, OK, I just got off the phone with Piseev and the deal's on.

LeGougne could have said, "Oui, boss," but then doublecrossed him by voting for Sale and Pelletier anyway, hehe, and no one would have been be the wiser.

In this way, fair judging would have prevailed.

Something like that. :scratch:

All this is about collusion. I think CoP ended that, although if there is a will there is a way.

I think what people are talking about is prejudice not collusions. Russian judges and Muslim judges will continue to favor a leading Russian skater. American judge will favor a leading American skater. This can almost be called FACT but it must be done when the contest is close. Watch the -3s come out if there is a slip by someone a judge would like to down.

Joe

iloveaxel · Feb 11, 2007

Joesitz said:
I think what people are talking about is prejudice not collusions. Russian judges and Muslim judges will continue to favor a leading Russian skater. American judge will favor a leading American skater. This can almost be called FACT but it must be done when the contest is close. Watch the -3s come out if there is a slip by someone a judge would like to down.

Joe

I agree. This sport is still too Euro centred. I mean there are just too many European judges which is unacceptable considering they are no longer the dominant power in figure skating.

European countries will only have 1 lady, 1 guy, 1 pair, 2 dance teams that are truly competitive for medals at the upcoming worlds. The remaining competitive slots are going to China, Japan, South Korea, U.S. and Canada.

But the majority of the judges are still from European countries including some very obscure countries who have no elite skater. This is really not fair to all Asian and North American countries considering the country bias.

chuckm · Feb 11, 2007

Of course there was one judge who gave Buttle all 8's--ranging from 8.00 to 8.75. No bias, there. :sheesh: No judge gave Lysacek marks anything close to that.

Several judges gave Lysacek 6.75 in Skating Skills (including the judge who gave Buttle all 8s). There's no doubt in my mind the judges are playing games and making alliances.

Mathman · Feb 11, 2007

Joesitz said:
All this is about collusion. I think CoP ended that, although if there is a will there is a way.

I don't see how the CoP has any effect on collusion whatever. If judges and their federations want to get together and scheme, what is there in the new judging system that hinders them?

I'm not saying that there is a lot of collusion going on, just that neither of the judging systems has/had any way to guard against it. In the end, we are dependent on the basic honesty of the judges.

Mathman · Feb 11, 2007

chuckm said:
...No judge gave Lysacek marks anything close to that.

Although judge number 8 did his best. Any guesses as to which judge was the American?

iloveaxel · Feb 11, 2007

chuckm said:
Of course there was one judge who gave Buttle all 8's--ranging from 8.00 to 8.75. No bias, there. :sheesh: No judge gave Lysacek marks anything close to that.

Several judges gave Lysacek 6.75 in Skating Skills (including the judge who gave Buttle all 8s). There's no doubt in my mind the judges are playing games and making alliances.

Do you have a country breakdown of judges at the upcoming worlds? I am VERY annoyed that countries such as Austria, Slovenia and a couple of ex-Soviet countries who have never produced elite skaters continue to get on the judges panel every time. You can imagine what scores these guys are going to toss out if the competition is between an Euro skater(s) and a North American or Asian skater(s).

This is very UNFAIR.

R.D. · Feb 11, 2007

well we're not in the situation yet so I say why fret about it?

chuckm · Feb 11, 2007

Mathman said:
I don't see how the CoP has any effect on collusion whatever. If judges and their federations want to get together and scheme, what is there in the new judging system that hinders them?

I'm not saying that there is a lot of collusion going on, just that neither of the judging systems has/had any way to guard against it. In the end, we are dependent on the basic honesty of the judges.

That is the problem in a nutshell. We have seen blatant cheating from some of the ISU judges in the past, even when we knew who they were and what scores they were giving. They are still judging and now they are free to cheat and collude with no interference whatsoever. Do leopards change their spots?

chuckm · Feb 11, 2007

Mathman said:
Although judge number 8 did his best. Any guesses as to which judge was the American?

At least judge #8 didn't give Buttle marks in the 6's to go with three 8s for Lysacek. Judge #5 gave Buttle five 8s and gave Lysacek two 6's. And judge #4 gave Buttle all 7s and 8s and Lysacek all 6s, while giving Lysacek two -GOE and no +2s, but no -GOE and lots of +2 to Buttle.

Mathman · Feb 11, 2007

iloveaxel said:
Do you have a country breakdown of judges at the upcoming worlds?

Here is the judges' draw for Worlds (scoll down to page 6).

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-178981-196199-113334-0-file,00.pdf

For instance, for ladies these countries will be represented (some with only one phase of the competition, some with both): Austria, Canada, Croatia, Estonia, Finland, France, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Korea, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, Turkey (Go Tugba!), USA.

Actually, I don't see any way around having a lot of European nations represented. There are a lot of countries in Europe.

In a way, maybe it is good to have the contest judged by countries that do not have any horse in the race. They have no reason to cheat for anyone.

iloveaxel · Feb 11, 2007

Mathman said:
Here is the judges' draw for Worlds (scoll down to page 6).

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-178981-196199-113334-0-file,00.pdf

For instance, for ladies these countries will be represented (some with only one phase of the competition, some with both): Austria, Canada, Croatia, Estonia, Finland, France, Hungary, Italy, Japan, Korea, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, Turkey (Go Tugba!), USA.

Actually, I don't see any way around having a lot of European nations represented. There are a lot of countries in Europe.

In a way, maybe it is good to have the contest judged by countries that do not have any horse in the race. They have no reason to cheat for anyone.

That's not going to work either. Many of these European countries such as Austria, Croatia, Estonia, Slovakia, Sweden, they don't really have any horse in this race. But due to human nature, most of them will be emotionally attached to European countries who actually have a horse in the race.

I found this is quite annoying. Can North Korea send a representative ? Seriously, Asian and North American have so many legitimate medal contenders, but they only have 4-5 representatives. This really sucks. It's wondering where are ISU's major financial sources?

chuckm · Feb 11, 2007

However, you could envision Russia colluding with Japan and/or Korea and exerting influence on the Eastern European judges to ensure that US skaters have no chance at the podium while boosting the placements of the Asian and Russian skaters. Easy to do if you get enough judges to play, and not so easy to detect. And by announcing the judges way ahead of time, there is ample time to forge alliances for mutual support.

Anyone who think similar games are not being played in Ice Dance has got to be delusional. Already there are rumblings that podium spots are being reserved for the top Canadian and Russian teams. That could extend to quid pro quos in other disciplines as well.

iloveaxel · Feb 11, 2007

chuckm said:
However, you could envision Russia colluding with Japan and/or Korea and exerting influence on the Eastern European judges to ensure that US skaters have no chance at the podium while boosting the placements of the Asian and Russian skaters. Easy to do if you get enough judges to play, and not so easy to detect. And by announcing the judges way ahead of time, there is ample time to forge alliances for mutual support.

Anyone who think similar games are not being played in Ice Dance has got to be delusional. Already there are rumblings that podium spots are being reserved for the top Canadian and Russian teams. That could extend to quid pro quos in other disciplines as well.

I think it's not going to be that simple. The focal point is going to be ice dance. Since at least three European pairs have legitimate shots at gold medals, the ramification is going to be nasty.

So it's very possible, for example, the Bulgarian federation will ally with asian countries such as China, or Japan or South Korea(I haven't read the roster yet), in return, Bulgaria, if they do have judges in ladies or pairs will help Japan/South Korea/China.

My point is since the competition in ice dance is so brutal, the country-based mathematics is going to be extremely tricky. European countries are not going to be a bloc this time around.

Mathman · Feb 11, 2007

What exactly would the power brokers offer to, say, Croatia, to make them want to play along? Some crumbs from the ISU table, like a seat on some subcommitee?

I can see how Korea might be tickled to have a Korean champion, but I can't see how it would benefit skating in Estonia to have a Russian one.

iloveaxel · Feb 11, 2007

Mathman said:
What exactly would the power brokers offer to, say, Croatia, to make them want to play along? Some crumbs from the ISU table, like a seat on some subcommitee?

I can see how Korea might be tickled to have a Korean champion, but I can't see how it would benefit skating in Estonia to have a Russian one.

Maybe some financial incentives?

BTW, I'm reading the judges roster, it's very intriguing. Let's take Bulgaria for example since that Bulgarian couples already claimed they would 'have a judge' at worlds. So naturally, I can imagine the Bulgaria will go along with China/Japan since China/Japan has a vote in dance and Bulgaria has a vote in pairs/men.

South Korea will gain nothing from allying wiht Bulgaria. This is just one example.

German pair will probably also get a boost from Polish and Russian judges. Russia is going to sacrifice their pairs in exchange for ice dance.

Overall, I think bulgaria is really in danger in ice dance, Russia definitely has an edge, but there are just too many variables.

I am still doing some math. In pairs, I believe China, U.S., Canada, possibly Bulgari, Australia or maybe even UZB will get along to push for their own pairs.

But countries like France, Germany, Poland, Russia, Ukraine will get together to push for that German and other European pairs. So it's pretty much a wash.

Anybody voluteers to do a bit analysis on ice dance which is the most complex matrix.

chuckm · Feb 11, 2007

Mathman said:
What exactly would the power brokers offer to, say, Croatia, to make them want to play along? Some crumbs from the ISU table, like a seat on some subcommitee?

I can see how Korea might be tickled to have a Korean champion, but I can't see how it would benefit skating in Estonia to have a Russian one.

...but with a quid pro quo, the Estonian Junior Ice Dancers might finish a place higher at Junior Worlds, no?

gio · Feb 12, 2007

iloveaxel said:
That's not going to work either. Many of these European countries such as Austria, Croatia, Estonia, Slovakia, Sweden, they don't really have any horse in this race. But due to human nature, most of them will be emotionally attached to European countries who actually have a horse in the race.

European countries aren't that emotionally attached! Rivalries between European countries exist!!! Poland and Russia, Poland and Germany, Italy and France, Italy and Croatia, UK and France... For political and geographical reasons. I don't know how can this affect Figure Skating, but for example I think the UK judge is more attached to the US skater than French skater.
The former Soviet countries aren't that attached either. Do you think that Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia will vote for Russia? I don't think so.

I don't know if there are other factors too. I have to say that I didn't analyze that much the judge blocks.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 12, 2007

In a way, maybe it is good to have the contest judged by countries that do not have any horse in the race. They have no reason to cheat for anyone

hmmm. What about collusion? They could make big bucks.

Joesitz (RIP) · Feb 12, 2007

gio said:
European countries aren't that emotionally attached! Rivalries between European countries exist!!! Poland and Russia, Poland and Germany, Italy and France, Italy and Croatia, UK and France... For political and geographical reasons. I don't know how can this affect Figure Skating, but for example I think the UK judge is more attached to the US skater than French skater.
The former Soviet countries aren't that attached either. Do you think that Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia will vote for Russia? I don't think so.

I don't know if there are other factors too. I have to say that I didn't analyze that much the judge blocks.

Gio - I think that is more political than social. There is an element of commeraderie between some judges. Certainly, for example, between Russia and Kazakstan, etc.

Joe

Judging controversy

rinkmaster

Joesitz (RIP)

iloveaxel

Match Penalty

chuckm

Mathman

Mathman

iloveaxel

Match Penalty

R.D.

chuckm

chuckm

Mathman

iloveaxel

Match Penalty

chuckm

iloveaxel

Match Penalty

Mathman

iloveaxel

Match Penalty

chuckm

gio

Joesitz (RIP)

Joesitz (RIP)

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