Ban on Carolina Kostner Over

jiggs · Mar 4, 2015

I don't understand how it is so hard for some people to give her the benefit of the doubt. I mean ... how many partners have affairs while being in an ongoing relationship, without the other one knowing or suspecting anything is wrong? If you trust your partner, there is no reason to be suspicious.

Carolina said in an interview that she never discovered anything suspicious in her fridge. He hid the drugs in a vitamin box. Why would she go and check if she didn't suspect anything was wrong? Athletes take vitamins all the time, nothing unusual. If my partner keeps a vitamin box in my fridge, why on earth would I go and open that box to check if they are really vitamins? I am sorry but if you trust your partner, no one would do that.

karne · Mar 4, 2015

The simple answer: because Caroline herself was an athlete and bound to the same rules. She should have known something was up when he asked her to lie and she KNEW he was breaking the rules. She KNEW she could be in masses of trouble if she was caught. And so she was.

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 4, 2015

I see no reason to not give Carolina the benefit of the doubt. Especially considering how crafty someone hiding their drugs can be. :biggrin:

Mafke · Mar 4, 2015

karne said:
The simple answer: because Caroline herself was an athlete and bound to the same rules. She should have known something was up when he asked her to lie and she KNEW he was breaking the rules. She KNEW she could be in masses of trouble if she was caught. And so she was.

I would assume that she thought she was lying about his location because he slipped away from where he was supposed to be in order to have some quality alone time with his girlfriend. This is hardly the crime of the century for anyone who's ever been in a romantic relationship

How many people on this board have never misled anyone about where they or a person they're in a relationship with spent the night?

Icey · Mar 4, 2015

psusanne said:
Yes, but I think that we agree, that this kind of offense is rarely punished. I posted a link yesterday, I think it covers the whole topic rather nicely.
http://www.newyorker.com/news/sporting-scene/carolina-kostner-anti-doping
It points out, that this case is really unique and that American governing bodies regard the area of boyfriends and girlfriends as “slippery slope".

In Kostner's case, an American governing body is not involved, but an international and Italian one, so what American governing bodies think is not relevant.

Buttercup · Mar 4, 2015

karne said:
Oh, AsadaFanBoy, don't even try. Apparently because it's Precious Perfect Carolina they should have let her off with nothing and bowed her out of their offices, awed at such a sweet, pure presence.

Oh, please. I'd say the same thing if it were darling delicious Max and Josh or one of your Australians who must never be criticized. It's simply a different point of view than yours regarding doping issues, and your mocking it is really getting tired.

I believe that Kostner's infraction is minor, there is no concrete evidence that she knew what Schwazer was doing, and certainly she did not commit a crime, contrary to what the fan boy thinks.

karne · Mar 4, 2015

Mafke said:
I would assume that she thought she was lying about his location because he slipped away from where he was supposed to be in order to have some quality alone time with his girlfriend. This is hardly the crime of the century for anyone who's ever been in a romantic relationship

How many people on this board have never misled anyone about where they or a person they're in a relationship with spent the night?

How many of the people on this board have been bound to rules that state they must be in a certain place at a certain time at peril of their sporting career?

karne · Mar 4, 2015

Buttercup said:
It's simply a different point of view than yours regarding doping issues, and your mocking it is really getting tired.

And the constant "poor innocent Carolina, her boyfriend is such a scummy douchebag and it's all his fault" is getting really tired too.

Buttercup · Mar 4, 2015

karne said:
And the constant "poor innocent Carolina, her boyfriend is such a scummy douchebag and it's all his fault" is getting really tired too.

If the shoe fits...

He was a lying doper who put her in a bad position, then threw her under the bus to further his career. She is better off without him.

Mafke · Mar 4, 2015

karne said:
How many of the people on this board have been bound to rules that state they must be in a certain place at a certain time at peril of their sporting career?

More evidence that the tyranny of the anti-doping Stasi leads to the deprivation of normal human reactions. Emotional connections are subordinated to obeying authority figures who micro-manage your life and can rifle through your excretia at any time they wish.

It's a corrupt system and will only get more corrupt and inhuman.

Mafke · Mar 4, 2015

Buttercup said:
He was a lying doper who put her in a bad position, then threw her under the bus to further his career.

That it has so far worked is more evidence, if any were needed, that the anti-doping regiment is out of control and corrupt.

solani · Mar 4, 2015

Icey said:
In Kostner's case, an American governing body is not involved, but an international and Italian one, so what American governing bodies think is not relevant.

But their opinion is very interesting to know, because of the fact, that the US is the only country imho that really takes the anti-doping war as serious as it should be taken. They try to get instigators, the trainers, the corrupted labs. That's why I mentioned it.
And I know that my opinion is not relevant in this case and I'm content to know that your's isn't either. :dance:

Buttercup · Mar 4, 2015

psusanne said:
But their opinion is very interesting to know, because of the fact, that the US is the only country imho that really takes the anti-doping war as serious as it should be taken. They try to get instigators, the trainers, the corrupted labs. That's why I mentioned it.

There are countries that have criminalized doping. Seems pretty serious to me.

But this "war" rhetoric is exactly the problem. It's not a war. Dopers are not ISIS, they are not combatants, they are (in most places) not even criminals. They are not evil. What they do is unsportsmanlike and against he spirit of fair play, but in the grand scheme of things, it's really not particularly important. An approach like yours is what leads to over the top enforcement (remember the Raducan case?), obnoxious testing (yes, do let's test the guy on his honeymoon or the father making funeral arrangements for his child), and reliance on the equivalent of jailhouse snitches (have the dopers inform on one another, who cares if there's actual evidence to support these allegations). Not to mention, it leads to looking at everyone as a potential criminal who's guilty even if it's only by association ("Kostner should recognized Ferrari/known what Schwazer put in her fridge/figured out what he was up to/BAN HER!!!).

Kostner had to go to the door, because Oberstdorf presumably was her whereabouts for testing. From the moment she did, she had no good options: either lie and betray her responsibilities per the anti-doping code, or tell the truth and betray her romantic partner. If I were in her position, I probably would have sent him off to be tested in Racines, too.

solani · Mar 4, 2015

Buttercup said:
There are countries that have criminalized doping. Seems pretty serious to me.

But this "war" rhetoric is exactly the problem. It's not a war. Dopers are not ISIS, they are not combatants, they are (in most places) not even criminals. They are not evil. What they do is unsportsmanlike and against he spirit of fair play, but in the grand scheme of things, it's really not particularly important. An approach like yours is what leads to over the top enforcement (remember the Raducan case?), obnoxious testing (yes, do let's test the guy on his honeymoon or the father making funeral arrangements for his child), and reliance on the equivalent of jailhouse snitches (have the dopers inform on one another, who cares if there's actual evidence to support these allegations). Not to mention, it leads to looking at everyone as a potential criminal who's guilty even if it's only by association ("Kostner should recognized Ferrari/known what Schwazer put in her fridge/figured out what he was up to/BAN HER!!!).

Kostner had to go to the door, because Oberstdorf presumably was her whereabouts for testing. From the moment she did, she had no good options: either lie and betray her responsibilities per the anti-doping code, or tell the truth and betray her romantic partner. If I were in her position, I probably would have sent him off to be tested in Racines, too.

I agree, the dopers aren't the problem. I actually believe Schwazer when he says that the pressure he was under to perform well was unbearable. The problem is the corrupted system behind, the medical staff who fidget with peoples health and life, the trainers and associations who only want to see results. To me it's a war because people die. Last week a young russian biathlete died because of a heart attack (no pre-existing condition known), we don't know wether she doped or not, but it's highly probable (that last scandal about organized doping in Russia, endurance sports, german tv journalist, ..).

In my opinion the thing with Kostner going to the door is pretty easy: She shouldn't be treated as an athlete in that case, because she was not involved in Schwazers training, she didn't have the same trainer or anything, she was just his girlfriend and should be treated as such.

Buttercup · Mar 4, 2015

psusanne said:
I agree, the dopers aren't the problem. I actually believe Schwazer when he says that the pressure he was under to perform well was unbearable. The problem is the corrupted system behind, the medical staff who fidget with peoples health and life, the trainers and associations who only want to see results. To me it's a war because people die. Last week a young russian biathlete died because of a heart attack (no pre-existing condition known), we don't know wether she doped or not, but it's highly probable (that last scandal about organized doping in Russia, endurance sports, german tv journalist, ..).

In my opinion the thing with Kostner going to the door is pretty easy: She shouldn't be treated as an athlete in that case, because she was not involved in Schwazers training, she didn't have the same trainer or anything, she was just his girlfriend and should be treated as such.

Thank you for clarifying. That's a far more nuanced position than my original interpretation, and while I dislike the "war" label, I tend to agree otherwise. I really think that the emphasis needs to be on ensuring athletes train in a medically sound manner & promoting fair play by various initiatives aimed at achieving a more level playing field. To me it looks like a lot of the doping oversight and enforcement at the moment is focusing on the wrong people and wasting money better spent elsewhere in the process.

solani · Mar 4, 2015

Buttercup said:
Thank you for clarifying. That's a far more nuanced position than my original interpretation, and while I dislike the "war" label, I tend to agree otherwise. I really think that the emphasis needs to be on ensuring athletes train in a medically sound manner & promoting fair play by various initiatives aimed at achieving a more level playing field. To me it looks like a lot of the doping oversight and enforcement at the moment is focusing on the wrong people and wasting money better spent elsewhere in the process.

It's a war to me, because the "bad guys" are trying to gain and unfair advantage and the "good guys" are trying to catch them. And the athletes in between get hurt. A lot of money is involved. The dopers think that they're doing it for themselves maybe, but they're also the victims of a corrupt system and some of them get serious health problems. All lose, not only the clean athletes, except the one's making the money (Do you know Victor Conte f.e.? I read that Dr. Ferrari is also well off)
What I want to say is that the anti-doping enforcement is on the right track overall, they have to get the instigators.

But what they're doing to Carolina in Italy ist outright ridiculous. I trust the CAS to handle both appeals in a wise manner.

AsadaFanBoy · Mar 4, 2015

jiggs said:
I don't understand how it is so hard for some people to give her the benefit of the doubt. I mean ... how many partners have affairs while being in an ongoing relationship, without the other one knowing or suspecting anything is wrong? If you trust your partner, there is no reason to be suspicious.

Carolina said in an interview that she never discovered anything suspicious in her fridge. He hid the drugs in a vitamin box. Why would she go and check if she didn't suspect anything was wrong? Athletes take vitamins all the time, nothing unusual. If my partner keeps a vitamin box in my fridge, why on earth would I go and open that box to check if they are really vitamins? I am sorry but if you trust your partner, no one would do that.

Did I say she would open the box to check if they are vitamins?

It's called CURIOSITY.

Part of the human condition.

I don't know why that is so hard for some of you to believe.

"ooh vitamins? Can I try one? Are they better than the kind I take?"
or better yet
"What's this unlabeled thing sitting in my fridge?"
"Mind if i have some of those ____ (random doped up foods that look like ordinary food)?"

and so forth...various ways it could have played out.

"Why am I waiting in this car for ~45 mins?"
"Why are you seeing that doping doctor who's banned?"
"Tell the doping agency people you're not home?"

I guess common sense is not used here.

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 4, 2015

AsadaFanBoy said:
Did I say she would open the box to check if they are vitamins?

It's called CURIOSITY.

Part of the human condition.

I don't know why that is so hard for some of you to believe.

"ooh vitamins? Can I try one? Are they better than the kind I take?"

or better yet

"What's this unlabeled thing sitting in my fridge?"

and so forth...

"Why am I waiting in this car for ~45 mins?"
"Why are you seeing that doping doctor who's banned?"

I guess common sense is not used here.

The problem I see here is you are basing your accusations on assumptions and then telling others that they are wrong for assuming something different. Surely you can see that.

Mathman · Mar 4, 2015

AsadaFanBoy said:
"ooh vitamins? Can I try one? Are they better than the kind I take?"

or better yet

"What's this unlabeled thing sitting in my fridge?"

"Mind if i have some of those ____ (random doped up foods that look like ordinary food)?"

This is your argument? A conversation with yourself that exists only in your imagination about "ooh, vitamins"?

I hope you are never called to testify at my trial. I can hear it now, "Yes, your honor, the culprit probably said, "ooh, vitamins." Throw the book at him."

Meoima · Mar 4, 2015

Seriously I never notice what my mother put in the fridge lol. I only care for what I myself put in there. And sometimes I even forget to check on them. :laugh:

Ban on Carolina Kostner Over

jiggs

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Mafke

Icey

Buttercup

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

Buttercup

Mafke

Mafke

solani

Buttercup

solani

Buttercup

solani

AsadaFanBoy

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

Mathman

Meoima

Match Penalty

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