2013 Worlds Ladies SP

[bara1968]

I think that the "e" was unwarranted on the flip but then again, I don't get why people are so outraged. There have been many times where a skater receives a questionable call yet not nearly this amount of hell is raised b/c of it.

It seems like people feel b/c she nailed the jumps her score should be 74+ automatically. I don't think that performance was worth more than a little over 70. The jumps were great (including the 3F) and she executed everything, but I don't feel her performance stood out other than from a technical standpoint. Spins and footwork, program as a whole...she was solid but I think there were a number of people who were better in those areas.

I think some fans are having a hard time realizing that in her absence there are skaters who have closed the gap somewhat, whereas before a clean skate in the SP would have had Yu-Na at least 5 points ahead of her nearest competitor. From a technical stanpoint in regards to jumps, she's still the best overall (though if Gracie Gold landed her jumps consistently that title would belong to her). In terms of spins, footwork, and programs, Yu-Na is not at the top anymore IMO. Her spins (aside from the layover camel which is excellent) are average to good; her footwork is still very good but I do think both Carolina and Mao have her beat; in terms of programs, it's completely subjective. I think the program is good but not outstanding...

I was happy to see Yu-Na return with one of the few clean skates of the event, especially b/c I was skeptical about her being able to handle the pressure of coming back to this level of competititon. I thought skated very well and I thought her score was good...but all of the wuz robbed talk is kinda wrecking it for me, especially when she's in the lead. It's confusing. Are people mad that she's not 5-10 points ahead? I'm just wondering why some people are so upset...

No, I am not mad because of the point-difference. I strongly believe that she will win this competition, and lead by little margin can actually give Yuna some competitive fire to perfect her LP Les Mis,( such a magnificent program!) so I don't actually care about overall point difference that much, at least in SP. Frankly speaking, I expected LOT MORE from her competitors especially given that 2-years of absence of Yuna.

I am mad simply because she did NOT get what she deserved to get. This "e"mark in particular, made me so upset since back in 2008-2009, she got this in GPF (is it correct?) with her 3F-3T combo in short and resulted in fall in this jump in LP. She ended up changing her combo in the following season. It was BIG controversial at that time, and a lot of people(including commentators) in skating world thought her 3F had no problem actually. And she had received huge GOE with 3F since then. Well, so I was relieved and didn't worry about her 3F anymore.... until yesterday, *bomb* when tech panel gave her this strange "e"mark again!! This strange mark has well-known history. That is probably why most people got furious after seeing this *again*. Yuna should have gotten her 3F ratified and got good GOE. The jump had great height, good speed to go in and good flow. It deserved good mark. I just hope that Yuna does not get affected by this and in her LP, simply execute it in the exact same way as yesterday.

And off topic. PCS................. I don't know what to say. It was underscored. Period. I already made comparison before, so I will not repeat. Just +1 : I oppose those opinions like she doesn't seem to enjoy the music etc... In terms of music interpretation, she did a great job. Her music was not familiar to the audience so I understand people saying oh well music was bad etc. But Yuna indeed successfully expressed a girl (*kissed* by vampire) who was feared, confused, and eventually lured by vampire power, with lots of facial expressions/body movement as well, so I really don't get people complaining about lack of facial expression. Really? I can find tons of pictures showing the opposite.. I admire Yuna, for trying this hard music as an opening for her return. After 2 yrs, she can show this much!

 

[Mathman]

Here is Kostner's SP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5suwKlI9ZB4

Can you tell me which part specifically? Do you mean 1:56? Or 2:07? Please show me.

That's the cool part! At 1:56 she is saying, oh my god, what have I done? And at 2:07 she is begging the Philistines to take back the money." :yes:

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I get people are hung up on Carolina's fall but it's only one element. Everything else was very well done. What happened on element 2 isn't supposed to affect element 3 thru 7....or even the PCS as I understand it. This is how the scoring system works. Now I expected Carolina to score 63 or 64, so I did think 66 was a bit high but then again, maybe not. I'm going to go back and score this competition too once it's over and post my results to my blog.

One good quality of Carolina's is her ability to put mistakes behind her and execute her remaining program and elements beautifully. I'm sure part of that comes from when she made a lot of errors in the past but was still able to place high by performing her program well and not getting down on herself. If you didn't see her fall you would have never known she made a major error by looking at the rest of her program.

What does bother me is this. Yes, she does have the best PCS, better than Yuna. But every other skater takes a hit on PCS when they make an error. Carolina does not. Is it because she performs flawed programs better than anyone else? Perhaps, but something about it doesn't make sense to me when the reigning OGM (who is known for her artistic proficiency) cannot skate a clean program and score higher PCS than a competitor with a fall.

 

[Colanboy]

I don't think Yuna's "known for her artistic proficiency", she's known for combining her strong technical elements with artistry.
However, since the Vancouver Olympics, Mao and Carolina have improved greatly in this regard while I feel Yuna has stagnated. This, coupled with her lackluster short program makes it reasonable for her to score lower PCS than Carolina.

 

[mary01]

I for one, Loved Mao's sp, to see her land the 3A again was so exciting to see on live screen. even with the mistake on the loop, her program was a true delight, her steps were once again fantastic, lively and a true joy to watch, and her spins were beautiful, her positions are exquisite. she really just became the music in a way, that will make me remember her sp to "I Got Rhytem" every time i hear it. I really hope she will skate her heart out tomorrow.

Akiko was amazing too, I really enjoyed her program, but I don't think that yesterday was her best performance.

 

[aftertherain]

I am mad simply because she did NOT get what she deserved to get. This "e"mark in particular, made me so upset since back in 2008-2009, she got this in GPF (is it correct?) with her 3F-3T combo in short and resulted in fall in this jump in LP. She ended up changing her combo in the following season. It was BIG controversial at that time, and a lot of people(including commentators) in skating world thought her 3F had no problem actually. And she had received huge GOE with 3F since then. Well, so I was relieved and didn't worry about her 3F anymore.... until yesterday, *bomb* when tech panel gave her this strange "e"mark again!! This strange mark has well-known history. That is probably why most people got furious after seeing this *again*. Yuna should have gotten her 3F ratified and got good GOE. The jump had great height, good speed to go in and good flow. It deserved good mark. I just hope that Yuna does not get affected by this and in her LP, simply execute it in the exact same way as yesterday.

Actually, Yuna got an edge call on her 3F six times in the 2008-2009 season. (Just correcting your statement. I mean nothing by it.)

CoC (SP, LP): http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpchn08/

4CC (SP, LP): http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2009/

Worlds (SP, LP): http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2009/

And I doubt that the edge call in the SP affected her so much that she fell on the 3F in the LP.

 

[ForeverFish]

Thanks. Wagner is making a big deal about the three spots - in the meantime I'm thinking, poor GG for having that pressure mounted on her...but you know what, Wagner is absolutely dead on. She told it like it is. It HAS been too long and we've squandered numerous chances in recent years. In fact, not a single 2008er has improved (or even matched) her previous Worlds showing when attending consecutive World championships. Flatt went 5th, 9th...Czisny went 5th, 22nd(!)...Even going further back, Meissner went 1st-4th-7th...EHughes was 9th in 2007 (I think she was 7th in 2006 but not sure). Now, Wagner will be 4th-??th...

Good luck to the two of them- Wagner at least has a decent handle on her nerves (her issue is mainly getting ahead of herself)...but I'm still worried about Gold. She needs a solid FS just to keep her 9th (or move up to 8th)...she's only done it once this season and that was at Nationals, post-disaster SP and no pressure left. She has been mediocre in every other FS perhaps with the exception of COR...

Gracie's in a good spot right now. She's not high enough to where she'd feel the pressure of skating with Yuna, Mao, and Caro, but she's still in the top ten and skating first in the second-to-last group. I think, if she has a clean or mostly clean FS, she should be able to knock Sotnikova down a place (she's not exactly a clean-FS skater, either), and maybe even wedge her way into sixth or seventh. Not many of the skaters behind Gracie have much opportunity of moving up, excepting Li and Tukt. But, even clean, I don't think Tukt will be able to leapfrog past eighth or ninth at the very best. Her SP made sure of that.

 

[Mathman]

I for one, Loved Mao's sp, to see her land the 3A again was so exciting to see on live screen. even with the mistake on the loop, her program was a true delight, her steps were once again fantastic, lively and a true joy to watch, and her spins were beautiful, her positions are exquisite. she really just became the music in a way, that will make me remember her sp to "I Got Rhytem" every time i hear it. I really hope she will skate her heart out tomorrow.

I mean this sincerely, Mary01. Every skater should have fans like you.

 

[sapphiresky]

I mean thus sincerely, Mary01. Every skater should have fans like you.

:thumbsup:Thank you both. This is what would be lovely to see in posts...not the pages and pages of negativity and complaints (even coming from someone who's leading the SP? Ugh...) that I had to navigate through. It's ridiculous.
I wish all the skaters well for the FP.

 

[Krislite]

No, I am not mad because of the point-difference. I strongly believe that she will win this competition, and lead by little margin can actually give Yuna some competitive fire to perfect her LP Les Mis,( such a magnificent program!) so I don't actually care about overall point difference that much, at least in SP. Frankly speaking, I expected LOT MORE from her competitors especially given that 2-years of absence of Yuna.
[...]

Exactly. Yuna hasn't competed at Worlds in two years. (In fact, given her absence for 2010-2011 season except Worlds, it's almost 3 years.) Yet she was better at managing her nerves in the SP than veterans who've not taken any break from competition since Vancouver. And remember folks, she's got a whole year to go until Sochi. I don't expect Yuna to rest on her laurels now, especially after the edge calls and PCS marks in the SP.

 

[kwanatic]

And off topic. PCS................. I don't know what to say. It was underscored. Period. I already made comparison before, so I will not repeat. Just +1 : I oppose those opinions like she doesn't seem to enjoy the music etc... In terms of music interpretation, she did a great job. Her music was not familiar to the audience so I understand people saying oh well music was bad etc. But Yuna indeed successfully expressed a girl (*kissed* by vampire) who was feared, confused, and eventually lured by vampire power, with lots of facial expressions/body movement as well, so I really don't get people complaining about lack of facial expression. Really? I can find tons of pictures showing the opposite.. I admire Yuna, for trying this hard music as an opening for her return. After 2 yrs, she can show this much!

ITA about the 3F.

I thought her PCS were appropriate. She earned 33.18 here; in Vancouver Yu-Na got 33.80 for PCS in the highest scoring SP in history. I thought Vancouver Yu-Na far outshined Worlds 2013 Yu-Na so for the difference to only 0.62, I think that's pretty fair. For someone who hasn't competed in 2 years, Yu-Na performed remarkably; however, I would be lying if I said her performance at worlds this year is better than what she managed to do at the peak of her career in Vancouver.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I don't see all the hoopla about Yu Na's flip anyways. It resulted in a GOE reduction of 0.3 (5.10 points from a BV of 5.40). Compared to, say, Osmond who landed an excellent 3F (6.70 with GOE), it's only 1.6 points off (which she essentially makes up in PCS), and certainly not as significant compared to Murakami/Sotnikova/Suzuki who were in the mid-5's on their 3F.

"e" is not a big deal if you already earn excellent PCS. And, apparently, neither is a fall.

 

[FlattFan]

What does bother me is this. Yes, she does have the best PCS, better than Yuna. But every other skater takes a hit on PCS when they make an error. Carolina does not. Is it because she performs flawed programs better than anyone else? Perhaps, but something about it doesn't make sense to me when the reigning OGM (who is known for her artistic proficiency) cannot skate a clean program and score higher PCS than a competitor with a fall.

Nope. Yuna does not take a hit on PCS even when she make error. Look at 2011 SP. She was a mess. 3F-2T, step out of 3Lz. Terrible program and TES like it was from the early 2000, her PCS were huge.
It does make a lot of sense if you just look at what each PCS means.

 

[bara1968]

ITA about the 3F.

I thought her PCS were appropriate. She earned 33.18 here; in Vancouver Yu-Na got 33.80 for PCS in the highest scoring SP in history. I thought Vancouver Yu-Na far outshined Worlds 2013 Yu-Na so for the difference to only 0.62, I think that's pretty fair. For someone who hasn't competed in 2 years, Yu-Na performed remarkably; however, I would be lying if I said her performance at worlds this year is better than what she managed to do at the peak of her career in Vancouver.

In my comparison before, I pointed out that Caro's PCS was higher than Yuna's olmpic PCS to make my point. Given that Caro's performance with major mistake does not deserve to get higher PCS than Yuna olympic SP PCS, I do think that it was either Yuna's underscored or Caro's overscored. (Actually they are vice-versa.)

 

[yuki]

I for one, Loved Mao's sp, to see her land the 3A again was so exciting to see on live screen. even with the mistake on the loop, her program was a true delight, her steps were once again fantastic, lively and a true joy to watch, and her spins were beautiful, her positions are exquisite. she really just became the music in a way, that will make me remember her sp to "I Got Rhytem" every time i hear it. I really hope she will skate her heart out tomorrow.

Akiko was amazing too, I really enjoyed her program, but I don't think that yesterday was her best performance.

Lovely post. I hope so too.

 

[aftertherain]

In my comparison before, I pointed that Caro's PCS was higher than Yuna's olmpic PCS to make my point. Given that Caro's performance with major mistake does not deserve to be higher than Yuna olympic SP PCS, I do think that it was either Yuna's underscored or Caro's overscored. (Actually they are vice-versa.)

She fell. Wouldn't that be reflected a little more in the TES than in PCS?

Also, like one poster pointed out earlier: Her 3T-3T combination was one element out of seven. There are five total PCS scores. That makes twelve marks. Just because you make a mistake on one mark does not mean that should necessarily reflect greatly on the eleven other marks. Now, if a skater has fallen twice or more, THEN there's a major problem.

And if we're talking about technical goods, Yuna's spins are definitely not what they used to be. Her first spin looked slow and labored. I noticed that her aerial position on the 3Lz was weird, and another poster mentioned that Yuna said that she nearly missed her 3Lz--but she made it look effortless nonetheless and was justly rewarded for it.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It does make a lot of sense if you just look at what each PCS means.

I don't disagree with that. What I disagree with is that, in practice, second tier skaters DO take the hit in PCS and the very top skaters do not. Kind of how Mao can get +GOE for doubling an intended triple or landing a two-footed 3A; if Gracie landed a flawed 3A she would not get +GOE. It starts to become too difficult for skaters to move up the ranks. For example:

2013 Euros SP: Clean Adelina vs Carolina with 1 fall, PCS difference ~1.5 points
2013 Worlds SP: Adelina with UR/2ft 3T vs Carolina with 1 fall, PCS difference ~5.2

So someone like Adelina gets slammed on TES and PCS with an error, whereas someone like Carolina only takes the hit on TES.

 

[Robeye]

One good quality of Carolina's is her ability to put mistakes behind her and execute her remaining program and elements beautifully. I'm sure part of that comes from when she made a lot of errors in the past but was still able to place high by performing her program well and not getting down on herself. If you didn't see her fall you would have never known she made a major error by looking at the rest of her program.

What does bother me is this. Yes, she does have the best PCS, better than Yuna. But every other skater takes a hit on PCS when they make an error. Carolina does not. Is it because she performs flawed programs better than anyone else? Perhaps, but something about it doesn't make sense to me when the reigning OGM (who is known for her artistic proficiency) cannot skate a clean program and score higher PCS than a competitor with a fall.

I have to agree with this. The analogy that I would use is this: if a violinist dropped her bow in the middle of a performance at the Tchaikovsky Competition, what would be the impact on the perceived performance quality? Would we be surprised to hear that the judges penalized her for it? Let's be honest, that's exactly what we would expect.

This is because the time lost and the disruption borne while the bow is on the floor cannot be regained. One can try to minimize the impact, but it cannot be completely made whole. One cannot simply tack on the lost passages later on in the program. I argue that the artistic aspect of PCS is exactly like this.

Like a living organism, the pieces have evolved to satisfy specific needs and purposes, and are in a fine balance. As any biologist will tell you, random changes to that balance, let's say a mutation, are overwhelmingly likely to be harmful, not helpful.

As you say, drivingmissdaisy, this common-sense intuition is borne out in practice, where one expects to see at least some relationship between a prominent fall and the artistic components of PCS.

As far as I can tell, this does not seem to be the case for Carolina's SP performance yesterday. Even if I were to accept for argument sake that the aesthetic qualities of this performance were unimpeachable without the fall (which I don't believe; her one-woman retrospective of Edvard Munch's "The Scream" in the middle of the program being an example), there should be some evidence in the score that the disruption of the fall was taken into account. I don't see how the scores indicate any such thing. It was a strong program, but it was not absolute perfection to start with, and was further marred by the fall, but with no apparent consequence due to the latter.

The main point is not the fundamental aesthetic merits of her program; it is the fact that a very basic principle of assessing program execution was being blatantly ignored.

Will it make a huge difference, in the end? My personal belief is that equilibrium will be achieved by the end of the competition.

But it doesn't mean I have to like it.

 

[skatel80]

What impressed me so much was the depth of the ladies field, it has increased so much, It was an incredible event to watch
even though she is in 6th place after the short I absolutely loved to see mao asada skating so well, I have always been a huge fan of her since she first emerged and to see her land that big triple axel last night made me smile and it is so great to see her looking so healthy and happy again
I think it was important for gracie to have that performance, she was visibly nervous but she held it together so good for her :agree:

 

[bigsisjiejie]

Maybe it's unfair to highlight the bad to make a larger point but these moments also capture my at Carolina's reputation for great artistry. I'm ready to admit I'm most likely the one who is "out to lunch" on this one but I just don't get it. I've just learned to accept judges love her so I'm not too bothered by her placement though I think the judges would have been better off putting her in top 5. Though I would think a fall should have put her closer to 10th compared to everyone else but that is just me. I don't hate her. I love her speed and watching her land her jumps is amazing. I just don't see the artistry.

You're not the only one. I have never particularly cared for Carolina and her skating. One of the most overrated skaters in modern times. Her skills are NOT head and shoulders above the other top ladies. It seems on these forums though, just as in the technical panel and judging boxes, that there is some sort of mass delusional rapture going on. Kindly pass me some of whatever good stuff it is that you all are smoking, and maybe I'll "see the light" too.