2023 Worlds: Free Dance | Thoughts

[gsk8]

Chock and Bates take World title in Saitama

2023 World Figure Skating Championships Free Dance USA’s Madison Chock and Evan Bates won their fourth world medal, this time a gold, in Saitama, Japan, on Saturday. Charlene Guignard and […]

www.goldenskate.com

So glad to see Muramoto and Takahashi got a new season's best since the Denis Ten Memorial Challenge! I hope they stick around til 2026!

The Italians' FD still stands out for me the most, but I like "dark." The music reminds me so much of all the all the Viking shows I watch And I like the make up. I always love the K&C so I can watch Fusar-Poli

Chock caught her heel on ice when she fell, but luckily it didn't happen during an element.

I enjoyed many other performances, of course!

Which were your favorites? Did the judges get it right?

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

All in all, an interesting ice dance event with the expected podium (maybe not in the expected order...)

Congratulations to C/B on their world title! And G/F win silver, I'm so, so happy for them! And bronze for G/P after coming back from surgery! Hooray for all the medalists!

I do feel for G/P here though, winning everything this season only to have their momentum stopped by something completely outside their control means that this bronze has got to be bittersweet.

The scoring was certainly interesting. Bobbles on the twizzles for 3 out of the top 5 (C/B, G/F and, though to a lesser degree, FB/S). Looking at the breakdown of the scores, G/F's twizzles were ranked 5th out of all the teams* while C/B's placed 1st both teams still with L4s, while Paul's got marked down to a L3 (G/P still had the 3rd highest twizzle mark). To me, their twizzles looked the cleanest of the medalists so I'd be interested to see why he lost a level.

*with my G/F-loving hat on, they've been underscored and overlooked on several occasions, so I can live with their twizzles getting getting a generous call today

G/F scored the highest total for lifts, with T/V 2nd!

C/B had an entirely L4 program, with G/F the only other team getting L4 on the step sequence.
Despite the fall, C/B still received 7 9.75s from the judges in PCS. I'm not sure why the scoring computers are not set up to automatically block the option of giving anything about 9.5 if there is a fall? Not that it's C/B's fault, of course!

Personally, I would've had FB/S over F/G in the overall standings, and G/P over G/F in the FD, with G/F still edging for silver on the strength of their awesome RD. I also would've had C/B much closer in scores to the other 2 medalists, in both programs.

Love the respect and admiration between the top-3 couples and the obvious camaraderie there, captured beautifully in this partner-swapping picture:


ETA: this was further continued at the press conference, where all the medalists were delighted at the all over-30s podium and there was a bit of rivalry between the 'born in the 80s' half of the table (Evan, Charlene and Marco) and the 'born in the 90s' half (Madi, Piper and Paul) when discussing possible music choices for next season with Madi teasing the '80s babies' about their fashion style

 

[SmileHappy34]

Good job all.

 

[cheerknithanson]

I’m happy for the Mrazeks being able to go next year thanks to the Taschlers!

 

[litenkyckling]

Hm - an event that overall irriated me to be honest - if I had watched it without scores I'd maybe have enjoyed it more? Because the margin given to C/B was laughable. And to put F-B/S behind F/G (especially in the RD) is a choice.

Further down though it was good, and I'm pleased we're seeing some more younger teams coming through. They weren't the best today but I love the younger of the 2 French teams. I'm also looking forward to the Georgians trying a new theme next year.

I did think however (and this is partly me being biased but actually not much) that C/P were pretty underscored compared to the teams above them. I don't think that they are 11 points behind Gr/P. I kind of feel like they were the only team in group 2 that didn't get the group 2 GOE boost. I know most people wanted KanaDai in the top 10 (and therefore the audience was a bit tepid in it's response to C/P compared to others) but I think the judges were correct to keep them in 11th place.

 

[Dreamer57]

I teared up watching the Evita program, FB/S and KanaDai, I think the last 2 groups were wonderful! Not pleased with the overscoring of certain Gadbois teams so I'll just say Congratulazioni to Charlene and Marco!

Really wowed by the Taschlers - I was really not a fan of their climate change FD at the start of the season but they've listened to feedback and made so much progress! I agree with Mark on their amazingskating skills and think their PCS needs to reflect that (C/B 5.5 pts ahead with a fall!). I hope they can challenge for a euros medal next year!

Excited at the prospect of seeing Lajoie/Lagha, Orihara/Pirinen and Mrazkova/Mrazek at worlds in 2024

Not sure if it has been mentioned elsewhere but Mark Hanretty and Belinda Noonan are truly the Dream team commentating for the ISU!!
I know Chris and Louise did the british eurosport commentary which wasn't too bad either.

 

[GGFan]

I laid out my thoughts in the competition thread. Long story short: I thought there were tons of amazing performances and I really enjoyed the skating. The judging on the other hand gave me bad 90s flashbacks in that some results felt preordained.

 

[liv]

It was familiar to see that there was virtually no change in position from rd to fd. Just like the 90s when we knew who would place where. For a few years there was movement, now it's predictable again.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

I learnt my lesson from the RD and stopped watching live before the final group. Checked results in the morning and they were slightly disappointing as expected. Now I can catch up and enjoy the last few skates on their own merits, instead of going to bed annoyed at the judges for giving scores not worth staying up for

The earlier teams were great and thoroughly worth watching live - for the suspense of seeing whether the Czechs, French and Finns would earn another sorely-needed spot, how C/P and the Georgians are continuing to improve with their respective new coaches and so on. Results that mostly reflect what's happening on ice instead of being preordained, and which remind us this is a sport...

 

[Yeslekyelnats]

The wins in dance pairs and ladies were all so bittersweet. All deserved but not the way you want to win.

 

[skatedreamer]

The wins in dance pairs and ladies were all so bittersweet. All deserved but not the way you want to win.

Yes, this…as an American, I’m happy for Madi and Evan but this win left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. Also, IMO both Canadian dance teams were sadly underscored.

Apparently Madi and Evan were lucky because her fall wasn’t considered part of the earlier element? I know little about ID judging, so someone please correct me if I’ve got it wrong.

 

[DonnaR]

Highlights for me were Laurence and Nikolai, the Taschlers, Kana & Dai and also the top 3. Although I would have thought the top 3 would be closer in points (were Madi and Evan really that much better than Charlene & Marco and Piper and Paul...) Laurence and Nikolai had 2 fantastic programs this year and should have been scored higher. So happy that Canada will have 3 teams at Worlds next year.

 

[Knebli]

I have held up faith in Dance that politics and country competitiveness would work it self out with the IJS. Slower to filter through than the other disciplines of course. For the winners to get a personal best score after a fall is ridiculous regardless of being an official element or not.
This event was judged glaringly wrong and there should be official protests in play.
I honestly have to say……. Ice Dance is not an option for me to engage in going forward.

 

[SorrySkater]

Can someone please explain how Chock and Bates won with a fall in the middle of their free dance? They weren’t that much better than the other couples. I just don’t get it.

 

[synchro66]

A fall in skating will only really impact the score if it occurs on an element. That applies to ALL disciplines of skating, not just ice dance. In this case, the fall was not on an element and so the only penalty is one point. The elements that were scored were all called as level 4s and were expertly done, thus giving a high base value and grade of execution for each element. The PCS is comprised of composition, presentation and skating skills. None of those are going to be seriously affected by a random fall on a non-element. Now if a fall occurs on an element, that is going to do some damage because the base value may be affected and the GOE will definitely be impacted. In ice dance, a fall on an element can really hurt the score.

Even in singles, a fall on a non-element is not going to affect the score more than a point. And it would take several falls to seriously impact the PCS for most skaters. I’m puzzled by the outrage here because many singles skaters have won world championships with a fall.

It’s too bad Tanith is coaching now because she used to do a great job explaining the subtle differences in ice dance teams, and why one team was better than another.

 

[synchro66]

Ice dance is also judged on very specific criteria that are not always clear to non-experts or from a televised broadcast. Correct edge, depth of edge, speed, knee action, coverage of the ice, are just some of those criteria.

 

[Flying Feijoa]

Ice dance is also judged on very specific criteria that are not always clear to non-experts or from a televised broadcast. Correct edge, depth of edge, speed, knee action, coverage of the ice, are just some of those criteria.

That said, it's worth noting that even some experts, including a few forum members, have issues with the scores (if not the placements). Judging remains fairly qualitative, especially now with the +/-5 GOE system and multiple non-levelled choreographic elements.

Certainly they weren't following their own specific criteria that caps PCS at 9.50 for a fall.

 

[synchro66]

Even if they had capped PCS at 9.5, that wouldn’t have made a difference. The base levels and GOEs determined this event.

Yes, there is something frustrating about the seeming predictability of placements in Ice Dance, but that is also in large part due to the nature of the discipline. The very top teams are going to get the levels called on a consistent basis because they are that good. They are going to get positive GOEs as well for the same reason. The emphasis in Ice Dance is on mastery and perfection. There are no huge tricks that distinguish one team from another.

Note that the podium was comprised of all over-30 skaters. Dancers can stick around in the sport a lot longer (and indeed the discipline requires it to reach that mastery) than singles or pairs because there isn’t the pounding on the body nor is there the necessity to be tiny to complete jumps. This is going to lead to slow turnover and the difficulty of ”moving up.” So while I may not always agree with all the judging, I don’t believe “the fix is in.” Instead I try to revel in the beauty that comes from the top teams.

 

[FGE198]

Even if they had capped PCS at 9.5, that wouldn’t have made a difference. The base levels and GOEs determined this event.

Yes, there is something frustrating about the seeming predictability of placements in Ice Dance, but that is also in large part due to the nature of the discipline. The very top teams are going to get the levels called on a consistent basis because they are that good. They are going to get positive GOEs as well for the same reason. The emphasis in Ice Dance is on mastery and perfection. There are no huge tricks that distinguish one team from another.

Note that the podium was comprised of all over-30 skaters. Dancers can stick around in the sport a lot longer (and indeed the discipline requires it to reach that mastery) than singles or pairs because there isn’t the pounding on the body nor is there the necessity to be tiny to complete jumps. This is going to lead to slow turnover and the difficulty of ”moving up.” So while I may not always agree with all the judging, I don’t believe “the fix is in.” Instead I try to revel in the beauty that comes from the top teams.

synchro66: Thank you for your posts! Your 3 posts have been the most intelligent, objective and knowledgeable regarding this subject matter. It's so frustrating to see people who are so aggressively opinionated on forums and on social media, but don't have the knowledge or understanding of the intricacies of Ice Dance. Many people are so deep in their feelings and often respond to a pair or a program because they like them personally or like their music and their program but they don't really know anything about the specificity of the skills, the edges, the lifts, etc. The moaning and grumbling from people who don't know what they're talking about has been exhausting and highlights the worst part of social media and message boards/forums. In addition, the top 5 teams were ALL overmarked and respectively they all got the highest scores of their international seasons. It was a generous panel of judges. Thanks again for your great posts. People on this forum could learn from you.

 

[synchro66]

@FGE198 Awww thanks for the kind words. And I agree with you about the exhausting (and frequently toxic) nature of forums. I usually avoid forums, but I love this sport and was hoping to find like-minded individuals who wanted to share their enjoyment of the sport. Looks like I found one!