2023 Worlds: Free Dance | Thoughts

[Anna K.]

On the fall/PCS cap:
One thing that the ISU could do is implement PCS caps for falls within their validation system. Then it's not solely down to the judges to follow rules (which they do very selectively), but rather a default cap within the system so they are physically incapable of inputting scores higher than the cap when a fall is called.

You know, you just inspired me to start a new thread about PCS.

 

[Jumping_Bean]

Even when you're aware of this tendency, and yep I am aware of it, it can still be difficult to view each competition with fresh eyes.

Prior results, good or bad, should have no bearing on scoring. Neither should practices or coaches' reputations, or anything else other than what the skaters put on the ice in THIS EXACT MOMENT.

This is very much true, but you even being aware of your bias is already more than some people ever manage to achieve, even if, of course, nobody is ever completely free of personal biases (and those might be as small as personal preference in artistic expression, which can still affect scoring (as a judge) or impression of scoring (as a fan).

And yes, you are completely right, minimizing bias should also be the goal in scoring! Of course, some things cannot be removed completely (at least not with how the system currently works), as the judges/technical panels are limited in for example camera angles (different from the ones we see as viewers), so sometimes it will be difficult to make the right, unbiased decision on the basis of the facts they have.

Sure... fans do that... but the issue is that judges do it too I mean, how many times have we heard that Poje wasn't good at twizzles and then, he would nail them... same with Nik... etc etc... or on the opposite side... how many times have we heard that a team are so strong technically, yet, at the competition, they make mistakes and are not penalized for it? So yeah... the judges are fans too, with everything that it implies

Yes, judges are people too, and are just as biased as everyone else (eventhough they shouldn't be), and that's terrible because they actually impact the results of the competition.

However, I've noticed that judges' bias often tends to change across competitions, and seems to be very influenced by the rest of the panel (despite judges not being able to communicate during judging), while fans are often very stubbornly stuck in their biased opinion for years. If it was just a stubborn bias, that would not be the biggest issue, but there's sadly some fans that then go out to insult the involved skaters and people who point out positive developments in the skaters' skills, which is absolutely not ok.

Her edges were better, but it's worth noting that the edges (from both of them) weren't hit with the same speed and flow as some of the athletes around them. I could argue with the level (and wouldn't give them both lvl4), but the main observation is from a GOE base they looked slower in the one foot vs some of the teams who skated before/after them (Not general observation, specifically talking about the one foot).

Generally I feel madi's edges have improved a lot to the point where they are sometimes better than Evan, but lots of the speed and power comes from Bates, and he does an extraordinary job in most of the elements to assist her/show her off. Lots of the performance comes from her though so in that way they are balanced (Watching them without knowing their coach I would have pictured them as a typical Schpilband couple with I.AM skating style - which knowing their history they pretty much are).

On the fall/PCS cap:
One thing that the ISU could do is implement PCS caps for falls within their validation system. Then it's not solely down to the judges to follow rules (which they do very selectively), but rather a default cap within the system so they are physically incapable of inputting scores higher than the cap when a fall is called.

I completely agree with everything you said here. Chock/Bates certainly still don't have the best skating skills in the field, and that should be accurately reflected in their scoring (which it is not).

Now, to be fair to Chock/Bates, they are not the only team with mediocre skating skills that profit from questionable scoring, but seem to be by far the team that is most criticised for their issues (and that is not a new development, it happened even before they were really World Championship medal contenders), while people speak much more positively about other teams in similar situations.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Now, to be fair to Chock/Bates, they are not the only team with mediocre skating skills that profit from questionable scoring, but seem to be by far the team that is most criticised for their issues (and that is not a new development, it happened even before they were really World Championship medal contenders), while people speak much more positively about other teams in similar situations.

I think it's also hard when couples like Guignard/Fabbri for example are really strong skaters in comparison, but don't have the strongest outward performance. Judges need to be brave and be willing to separate the PCS aspects (and give some skaters higher skating skills and lower performance and some skaters higher performance and lower skating skills). Likewise with GOE - judges tend to give similar GOEs for all elements without considering if the individual element itself was performed well at high difficulty. Both Guignard/Fabbri and Chock/Bates had twizzle issues yet were given extremely high GOE.
The world champions dont need to be given highest marks for everything - if other teams beat them in different aspects. In the past there have been very well-rounded world champions (e.g. Virtue/Moir, Davis/White, Papadakis/Cizeron), but that doesn't mean all world champions need to - although all of them would need separate discussions as even for the best weaknesses can and do exist. Sometimes judges try too hard to work backwards off things - i.e. Figure out placements and then input GOE/PCS to achieve those rankings. Of course, can't ignore the political aspect - this is a rather "innocent" interpretation of what goes on.

 

[TontoK]

In general, I think the IJS system rewards performances on the day. While I might have different preferences from time to time, I don't recall a flat-out criminally wrong outcome, at least among the medals in any discipline. I can wrap my mind around why the podiums turned out the way they did, even if I might wish they were otherwise.

This is not to say the system is perfect. The PCS marks above 9.5 that have been called out here are an obvious example. Less obvious, but equally valid, are the insane GOE awarded to Shoma's so-called "flip" jump.

Were the scores in each of these cases inflated? Yes. Were the podiums criminally wrong? No.

 

[skatedreamer]

I think it's also hard when couples like Guignard/Fabbri for example are really strong skaters in comparison, but don't have the strongest outward performance. Judges need to be brave and be willing to separate the PCS aspects (and give some skaters higher skating skills and lower performance and some skaters higher performance and lower skating skills). Likewise with GOE - judges tend to give similar GOEs for all elements without considering if the individual element itself was performed well at high difficulty. Both Guignard/Fabbri and Chock/Bates had twizzle issues yet were given extremely high GOE.
The world champions dont need to be given highest marks for everything - if other teams beat them in different aspects. In the past there have been very well-rounded world champions (e.g. Virtue/Moir, Davis/White, Papadakis/Cizeron), but that doesn't mean all world champions need to - although all of them would need separate discussions as even for the best weaknesses can and do exist. Sometimes judges try too hard to work backwards off things - i.e. Figure out placements and then input GOE/PCS to achieve those rankings. Of course, can't ignore the political aspect - this is a rather "innocent" interpretation of what goes on.

In general, I agree with everything you said, but the "working backwards" idea sort of knocked me sideways. Doesn't that sound like a scientist skewing data to prove a pet theory? IMO, that's not just working backwards. I'd actually call it... bass ackwards.

Is it too much to ask judges to apply some logic to the process? Can't they just input the GOE, PCS, and everything else and then let the totals determine the winner?

OK, end of rant and rhetorical questions.

*climbs down from soapbox*

 

[kolyadafan2002]

In general, I agree with everything you said, but the "working backwards" idea sort of knocked me sideways. Doesn't that sound like a scientist skewing data to prove a pet theory? IMO, that's not just working backwards. I'd actually call it... bass ackwards.

Is it too much to ask judges to apply some logic to the process? Can't they just input the GOE, PCS, and everything else and then let the totals determine the winner?

OK, end of rant and rhetorical questions.

*climbs down from soapbox*

I agree. It is like a scientist skewing data and totally wrong. I was of course describing an occurrence (i.e. what the judges sometimes do) rather then what should happen.

 

[skatedreamer]

I agree. It is like a scientist skewing data and totally wrong. I was of course describing an occurrence (i.e. what the judges sometimes do) rather then what should happen.

yes, I understood that. It just seems incredible that the judges would take the "backward" approach.

 

[sisinka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AqiB3nakkQ ,

with examples of Set of Twizzles with evaluations:

Grades of Execution +5 to -5 Ice Dance

Visit https://isu.org/isu-development-program for more information. SUBSCRIBE to our channel: https://www.youtube.com/ISUDevelopmentProjects?sub_confirmation...

youtu.be

Grades of Execution +5 to -5 Ice Dance

Visit https://isu.org/isu-development-program for more information. SUBSCRIBE to our channel: https://www.youtube.com/ISUDevelopmentProjects?sub_confirmation...

youtu.be

I find this video very educational and useful.
Mrs. Halina Gordon-Poltorak and Mrs. Hilary Shelby explain how GOE is apllied step by step. It is old, but the principles are the same until this season.

Many of us are expecting that mistake in Set of Twizzles should automatically lead to lower GOE. While judge's approach is based on counting of Positive and Negative Features.

Let's try on examples. I took Set of Twizzles by Madison & Evan (the best couple by judges in overall score, the best Twizzles of the competition). I also wanted to look at another couple - I chose Christina Carreira & Anthony Ponomarenko.

GOE for Required Elements in 2022-23 - https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/...ade-of-execution-chart-required-elements/file

Positive Features:
1. Smooth and/or Effortless
2. Element enhances the choreography and/or character of the chosen music and/or rhythm. Element reflects nuances in the music
3. Entry/Exit is seamless and/or unexpected and/or creative
4. Body lines and pose of both partners aesthetically pleasing or in character
5. Speed across the ice maintained or accelerated during the Element
6. Element is innovative and / OR creative
7. Unison or Oneness throughout the element
8. Consistent and close spacing between partners
9. Speed of rotations maintained or accelerated
10. Cleanness and sureness of steps and turns
11. Exit of one of Twizzles (1) / Exit of both Twizzles (2) with smooth running edge performed by both partners on same Twizzle

Negative Features:
1. Poor execution and/or Element labored and/or Uncontrolled
2. Element does not reflect choreography of the chosen music/rhythm/charact
3. Poor entry / Poor exit (per each)
4. Poses or moves awkward or not aesthetically pleasing (per partner)
5. Long separation before/after Required Elements in RD/FD
6. Execution not simultaneous and/or Lack of unison
7. Distance within Element
- more than 2 arms length apart
- variable spacing in between partners
8. Lacking or reducing speed of rotation
9. Not for Twizzle
10. Lack of glide (movement across the ice)

Madison & Evan's Set of Twizzles: https://files.fm/u/wd9csytbb
Positive Features:
1. The first and the third Twizzles yes, but during the second Twizzle Madison started to lose balance which forced her to move with free leg to center again, Evan was losing balance in the second Twizzle as well - the axis of his body was moving away from vertical in the third rotation. That is why I would say NO to smooth and effortless.
2. I feel it follows the style of choreography - YES. Nuances - in the beginning of first Twizzle - OK, in the fourth rotation of the first Twizzle - missed - went just for the finish of nuance, to the end of second Twizzle - OK, exit music nuance – well, only if you count upper lift moving straightly up like following a nuance. It was following the rhythm - YES (+2)
3. Seamless - YES. NOT unexpected (started literally after cross-overs, exit with three-turns.) (+1)
4. YES as to aesthetics. I think that many other poses (without Spanish ones) can be in character with this kind of music, so I would take just aesthetic Feature. (+1)
5. NO, it was not even maintained because of the second set.
6. NO - basic position with basic arm / hand holds.
7. NO - thanks to second Twizzle - Pirouette and losing balance in different moments which led them not to be in unison.
8. Consistent spacing - coming closer in second and third Twizzle. Close spacing - it is never clearly visible. Judges can see spacing properly only if skaters are doing Twizzles on short axis right against judges. For this feature ice metrics with distance between partners would be very useful. Or delete the feature, it is impossible to see it properly. But they definitely didn't look far from each other - let's give them YES for close distance. (+1)
9. NO.
10. Thanks to second Twizzle - NO.
11. Low speed but they were not scratching the ice - so YES, exits were smooth. (+2)

Number of Positive Features = 7

Negative Features:
1. Second Twizzle - one rotation from both laboured, I could also use uncontrolled term – but I don't want to be strict ( -1 only)
2. - 5 - NO
6. Second Twizzle - YES (-1)
7. Variable spacing - YES (-1)
8. Not visibly.
10. Not the best moving across the ice, but quite nice. Definitely not for giving them Negative Feature.

Number of Negative Features = -3

The result (Positive and Negative Features) = 7 - 3 = 4 Features = GOE +2.

They got once GOE +3 (which means +5 or +6 Features), six times GOE +4 (which means +7 or +8 Features and NO Negative Features), twice GOE +5 (more then +8 Features, NO Negative features). So 8 judges didn't find even one Negative Feature in their execution of Set of Twizzles.

Christina & Anthony's Set of Twizzles: https://files.fm/u/99sgednzb
I believe there was scratching and a Pirouette in the first Twizzle from Christina - during third rotation - should be downgraded to Level 3 for her.

Positive Features:
1. NO - it rather looks like hard work plus Christina was scratching the ice a little bit in the first Twizzle.
2. Choreography and character - YES and YES. Nuances - NO - they missed most of nuances. (+2)
3. Unexpected and creative for both entry and exit. - definitely YES. And I liked it a lot. (+2)
4. Both aesthetic and in character - YES and YES. (+2)
5. NO - visible especially in the first Twizzle - exit speed was lower in comparison with entry speed. Not fair Feature for the third Twizzle, because it was one foot second and third Twizzle, it is impossible to accelerate speed across the ice.
6. I think that entry and steps between the first and the second Twizzle were creative, I found creative one foot execution of the second and third Twizzle (because not many couples are using one foot Feature). But Twizzle's positions themselves were not innovative. NO.
7. YES. (+1)
8. Consistent spacing - YES. Close spacing - not ideal angle of camera view - in the first Twizzle it could be more than 2 arms lenght apart, but who knows without ice metrics. (+1)
9. Maintained - YES. Accelerated - NO. Another trouble - using one foot feature, it is almost impossible to accelerate speed of rotation. (+1)
10. Thanks to Christina in the first Twizzle - NO.
11. If I count Madison & Evan's running edge, I definitely have to count Christina & Anthony's running edge - YES for both (+2).

Number of Positive Features = 11

Negative Features:
1. Laboured - Christina in the first Twizzle. (-1)
2. - 6. NO
7. More then two arms length apart - maybe in the first Twizzle, but I wouldn't take it bad enough for Negative Feature.
8. NO
10. Normal movement across the ice in the first Twizzle, really nice gliding in the third Twizzle taking into account it was the second part of one foot Twizzles.

Number of Negative Features = -1

The result (Positive and Negative Features) = 11 - 1 = 10
GOE +4 and +5 can't have any Negative Feature, so they would finish with GOE +3.

They got once GOE +2, eight times GOE +3.

I already mentioned problems in seeing real spacing between partners. There is also the trouble with free leg position. With extended knee of free leg, partners can't be that close like in case of bent knee, it is dangerous. Having spacing of more then two arms lenght apart in Negative Features is discriminating towards couples having such position with extended knee of free leg.

I would like to invite you to try on your own how would you judge one or both couples and their Sets of Twizzles. Write your evaluation, please, and we will see if we can get on similar GOE or if we have big variety of opinions. I would like to know how much different or similar opinions we will have.

Finally I compared the best Twizzles by judges from Junior / Senior World Championships. Madison & Evan - once GOE +3, six times GOE +4, twice GOE +5. Katerina & Daniel (I had to cut some step between first and second set to keep unison with Madison & Evan) - eight times GOE +3, once GOE +4. For judges Madison & Evan's Twizzles were clearly better...

https://files.fm/u/fgwace4zu

 

[gleungc6]

Sisinka, thanks for your detailed post! I enjoyed watching the video too. Lots of interesting explanations.

 

[mrrice]

One last comment on this subject. As a former competitive dancer and choreographer, I can tell you that this happens more often than you think. There were times when I thought my students were awful, and they still won the event. Other times, I thought they were spectacular and they came in second. We all have to realize that the skaters have nothing to do with the scores they receive. I have been in the coaches room when scores are handed out before they are announced. I have heard coaches scream with Joy and in Anger. It's part of being in a sport that doesn't have a true score board or a Finish Line. It's all up to the judging panel and that can vary from event to event, the skaters have nothing to do with that.

Here's the University Of Minnesota's Dance Team from my judging days. They won every show except the one before Nationals when they lost to Tennessee. One judge buried them with a 5th place ordinal dropping them to second place. They did win the title at Nationals but, it sure took the wind out of their sails when they had that loss right before Nationals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q_r7kXMKLI

 

[Auréliedream]

Hm - an event that overall irriated me to be honest - if I had watched it without scores I'd maybe have enjoyed it more? Because the margin given to C/B was laughable. And to put F-B/S behind F/G (especially in the RD) is a choice.

Further down though it was good, and I'm pleased we're seeing some more younger teams coming through. They weren't the best today but I love the younger of the 2 French teams. I'm also looking forward to the Georgians trying a new theme next year.

I did think however (and this is partly me being biased but actually not much) that C/P were pretty underscored compared to the teams above them. I don't think that they are 11 points behind Gr/P. I kind of feel like they were the only team in group 2 that didn't get the group 2 GOE boost. I know most people wanted KanaDai in the top 10 (and therefore the audience was a bit tepid in it's response to C/P compared to others) but I think the judges were correct to keep them in 11th place.

I very much share the same thoughts as you.

FB/S came out behind F/G overall in this event doesn’t sit right with me, with what they’ve delivered in both rd & fd, I personally think they deserved to podium here even.

I also think C/P were very underscored in second last group, I was shocked by the scores given to them, looking at the protocols, their BV is up there with Gr/Pa and R/A by 0.01 lower only, (their rd BV 31.32 was actually the 5th highest in the event, Gr/Pa’s BV 30.20 in 10th) somehow been put in 10th place overall with a much lower score did not feel right to me, it seemed judges just downplayed them by giving low goes and pcs. I don’t agree with the 11 points gap between the two young us teams either, I’m not even convinced they have a 5 points gap this season, C/P showed up very differently compared to last season. It was so wonderful to see some of the younger teams on this stage this year.

But, the WR scores judges handed to C/B reminded me that ice dance judging as corrupted as ever, these scores are just pretentious numbers, political play

 

[sisinka]

gkelly wrote explanation of Components, thank you for that.

Do we need a score box entry for PCS?

I think that we need a PCS score box entry. Currently, the level of PCS is awarded before the competition (6s, 7s, 8s etc.) so it would be easy to show it on the score box and to show how PCS caps are applied automatically after falls. It would make the PCS section more transparent. It would...

www.goldenskate.com

Guidelines for marking Program Components - https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-communications/28330-isu-communication-2474/file – page 13

Composition
The intentional, developed and / or original arrangement of the repertoire of all types of movements into a meaningful whole according to the principles of proportion, unity, space, pattern and musical structure.
Unity
Connections between and within the elements
Pattern and ice coverage
Multidimensional movements and use of space
Choreography reflecting musical phrase and form

Skating Skills
The ability of the skater to execute the skating repertoire of steps, turns and skating movements with blade and body control.
Variety of edges, steps, turns, movements and directions
Clarity of edges, steps, turns, movements and body control
Balance and glide
Power and speed

I was curious how judges evaluated Composition and Skating Skills. I tried to analyse things which can give a guideline for features which are underlined. Let’s compare the best and the third best free dance (Madison & Evan and Piper & Paul). As to Madison & Evan's FD - some info was taken from World FD discussion - https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/2023-world-championships-free-dance.95218/post-3124460

Composition mark by judges:

Madison & Evan: six times 9.50 and three times 9.75.
Piper & Paul: two times 9.25, five times 9.50 and two times 9.75.

Three judges put Madison & Evan about 0.25 higher in comparison with Canadians. Six judges gave them the same marks.

Skating Skills by judges:

Madison & Evan: two times 9.25, five times 9.50 and two times 9.75.
Piper & Paul: four times 9.25, five times 9.50.

Four judges evaluated Madison & Evan higher, one judge preferred Canadians. Four judges gave them the same marks.

Transitions and Choreographic Character Step Sequence only:

- Madison & Evan https://files.fm/u/zast3apk8 , Piper & Paul https://files.fm/u/kduu6qtux
- more dance holds, closer spacing, bigger variety of different steps on side of Piper & Paul.

Number of cross-overs:

- 26 by Madison, 46 by Evan
- 34 by Piper, 32 by Paul

Number of difficult turns in elements:

- Madison & Evan - 5 by both in Step Sequence, 4 by both in One Foot Section
- Piper & Paul - 4 by both in One Foot Section, 5 by both in Step Sequence

Number of difficult turns in transitions:

- Madison & Evan – NONE
- Piper & Paul – 4 difficult turns - bracket by both in the very beginning, forward outside mohawk by Paul in first transitions, forward outside mohawk by Piper after Choreographic Lift

Dance holds:

- Madison & Evan – killian holds for about 7 seconds, two times almost waltz hold (in my opinion it was not established, they run away from it quickly) https://files.fm/u/kx732nq6x , NO tango or foxtrot hold
- Piper & Paul - – killian holds for more than 6 seconds, waltz holds for 13.5 seconds, foxtrot holds for 3 seconds = 22.5 seconds in dance holds

Variety of difficult turns on one foot in One Foot Section and Step Sequence (no mohawk and choctaw):

Using abbreviation: L – left, R – right, B – backward, F – forward, O – outside, I – inside,
(for example LFI – left forward inside)

- Madison: LFO rocker, RBI counter, RFI double Twizzle, RBI counter, RFI bracket, RFI rocker, RBO double Twizzle,
- Evan: RBI counter, RFO rocker, RFI double Twizzle, RBI counter, RFI bracket, RFI rocker, RBO double Twizzle.
- conclusion: Madison had six difficult turns executed on right leg, one turn on left leg, both counters were the same (RBI). Evan executed all turns on right leg only, both counters were the same (RBI).

- Piper: RBO rocker, RFI bracket, RBO counter, RBO double Twizzle, LFO rocker, RFI bracket, RBO double Twizzle,
- Paul: LFO rocker, LBI counter, LFI bracket, LBI double Twizzle, RBI counter, LFO rocker, RBO double Twizzle.
- conclusion: Piper had six difficult turns executed on right leg, one turn on left leg, both brackets were the same (RBI) and both double Twizzles were the same (RBO). Paul executed five diffucult turns on left leg, two difficult turns on right leg, repeated double Twizzles and counter was on different leg, both rockers on the same leg (LFO).

From all four dancers only Paul can be described like dancer with variety of difficult turns.

Covering the whole ice surface corners including:

- from judges place we have: right further corner and right closer corner and left further corner and left closer corner

- both couples had no problems covering the center of the ice and places in front of judges

- Piper & Paul: right further corner – transitions before One Foot Section and Choreographic Lift, right closer corner – transitions before Twizzles, left further corner – transitions before Assisted Jumps, left closer corner – transitions before Sliding Choreographic Movement
- Madison & Evan: right further corner – entry for Step Sequence and transitions before Straight Line Lift, right closer corner – NOTHING, left further corner – transitions before One Foot Section and Lift + Slide in the final of the dance, left closer corner – exit of Step Sequence

From all those things mentioned above it is clearly visible that Piper & Paul’s free dance was way more difficult and more fulfilling the underlined features in Composition and Skating Skills. Also Paul showed much bigger variety in difficult turns while Evan execute all difficult turns on right foot.

What led judges to score Composition and Skating Skills the way they did?
1. Did they mentioned all things above and they decided not to follow it?
2. Or they didn't mention it because of lack of time and because they had no technology which would analyse those things?

 

[sisinka]

Sisinka, thanks for your detailed post! I enjoyed watching the video too. Lots of interesting explanations.

Thank you very much!

 

[sisinka]

One last comment on this subject. As a former competitive dancer and choreographer, I can tell you that this happens more often than you think. ...

Thank you for you post. I would like to hear more opinions from choreographers / coaches / judges /skaters, their input could be interesting in this debate. After all those are their professional lifes which are effected the most with ISU judging system.

... We all have to realize that the skaters have nothing to do with the scores they receive...

I respect all kind and working-hard people no matter if they are top athletes or have other jobs.

I don't want to attack skaters or judges or Technical panel. Their work is difficult, the pressure is high and judges need to decide in extremely short time (especially seeing how many things they need to take into account).

Judging system is simply not ideal until today. There are good things, yes, but unfortunately bad things as well. To show these problems you need examples of skater's programs, there is no other way how to prove it. This time it was Madison & Evan who got more generous score in comparison with other dancers, next times it will be other couple.

The problematic situations will last as long as judging system will not be corrected or improved at least.

... I have been in the coaches room when scores are handed out before they are announced. I have heard coaches scream with Joy and in Anger. ...

Yes, those situations are difficult to handle. Especially seeing students crying from let's say “not ideal“ judging. Then they ask you with tears in their eyes what they did wrong… And you knew they did nothing wrong, they only didn't get the score they deserved.

... There were times when I thought my students were awful, and they still won the event. Other times, I thought they were spectacular and they came in second. ...

I fully agree. I suggest this explanations like one of possible reasons. Judges are humans. Human eye has limitations. If you watch edge work of man - the rest of things (lady's edges, arms by both, overall expression) is peripheral and not properly seen. If you concentrate on finishing arm movement in lady's presentation - you can't see properly edge work by both and expression from man. If you concentrate on overall expression - you will finish watching the more "visible" partner instead of both (in case partners are not equal).

It's part of being in a sport that doesn't have a true score board or a Finish Line. It's all up to the judging panel and that can vary from event to event, the skaters have nothing to do with that.

THIS. I think you expressed the feeling of many people in figure skating world. You mentioned, you don't like and don't agree with the situation...and you dealt with it taking it like the fact which will never change. People here on the board didn't deal with it yet. They want better judging. Maybe it is better that the main disagreement comes from the audience. In past when some skaters or coaches complained about judging system (and at least few of them were right) - they were called arrogant, bad mannered and they got advise: "Work more!"

One thing which is maybe lost in our posts - that desire for bigger fairness and transparency - is advantage for athletes. With fair judging athletes will get the placement which is more reflecting reality. Without fear that this time it will be them on whom judges and Technical panel will vary - like you decribed above.

There are many people who love figure skating and want to see this sport grow. Problematic judging and mistakes in judging are killing the sport.

 

[Magill]

Problematic judging and mistakes in judging are killing the sport.

Could not agree more!

 

[4everchan]

gkelly wrote explanation of Components, thank you for that.

Do we need a score box entry for PCS?

I think that we need a PCS score box entry. Currently, the level of PCS is awarded before the competition (6s, 7s, 8s etc.) so it would be easy to show it on the score box and to show how PCS caps are applied automatically after falls. It would make the PCS section more transparent. It would...

www.goldenskate.com

Guidelines for marking Program Components - https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/rules/fsk-communications/28330-isu-communication-2474/file – page 13

Composition
The intentional, developed and / or original arrangement of the repertoire of all types of movements into a meaningful whole according to the principles of proportion, unity, space, pattern and musical structure.
Unity
Connections between and within the elements
Pattern and ice coverage
Multidimensional movements and use of space
Choreography reflecting musical phrase and form

Skating Skills
The ability of the skater to execute the skating repertoire of steps, turns and skating movements with blade and body control.
Variety of edges, steps, turns, movements and directions
Clarity of edges, steps, turns, movements and body control
Balance and glide
Power and speed

I was curious how judges evaluated Composition and Skating Skills. I tried to analyse things which can give a guideline for features which are underlined. Let’s compare the best and the third best free dance (Madison & Evan and Piper & Paul). As to Madison & Evan's FD - some info was taken from World FD discussion - https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/2023-world-championships-free-dance.95218/post-3124460

Composition mark by judges:

Madison & Evan: six times 9.50 and three times 9.75.
Piper & Paul: two times 9.25, five times 9.50 and two times 9.75.

Three judges put Madison & Evan about 0.25 higher in comparison with Canadians. Six judges gave them the same marks.

Skating Skills by judges:

Madison & Evan: two times 9.25, five times 9.50 and two times 9.75.
Piper & Paul: four times 9.25, five times 9.50.

Four judges evaluated Madison & Evan higher, one judge preferred Canadians. Four judges gave them the same marks.

Transitions and Choreographic Character Step Sequence only:

- Madison & Evan https://files.fm/u/zast3apk8 , Piper & Paul https://files.fm/u/kduu6qtux
- more dance holds, closer spacing, bigger variety of different steps on side of Piper & Paul.

Number of cross-overs:

- 26 by Madison, 46 by Evan
- 34 by Piper, 32 by Paul

Number of difficult turns in elements:

- Madison & Evan - 5 by both in Step Sequence, 4 by both in One Foot Section
- Piper & Paul - 4 by both in One Foot Section, 5 by both in Step Sequence

Number of difficult turns in transitions:

- Madison & Evan – NONE
- Piper & Paul – 4 difficult turns - bracket by both in the very beginning, forward outside mohawk by Paul in first transitions, forward outside mohawk by Piper after Choreographic Lift

Dance holds:

- Madison & Evan – killian holds for about 7 seconds, two times almost waltz hold (in my opinion it was not established, they run away from it quickly) https://files.fm/u/kx732nq6x , NO tango or foxtrot hold
- Piper & Paul - – killian holds for more than 6 seconds, waltz holds for 13.5 seconds, foxtrot holds for 3 seconds = 22.5 seconds in dance holds

Variety of difficult turns on one foot in One Foot Section and Step Sequence (no mohawk and choctaw):

Using abbreviation: L – left, R – right, B – backward, F – forward, O – outside, I – inside,
(for example LFI – left forward inside)

- Madison: LFO rocker, RBI counter, RFI double Twizzle, RBI counter, RFI bracket, RFI rocker, RBO double Twizzle,
- Evan: RBI counter, RFO rocker, RFI double Twizzle, RBI counter, RFI bracket, RFI rocker, RBO double Twizzle.
- conclusion: Madison had six difficult turns executed on right leg, one turn on left leg, both counters were the same (RBI). Evan executed all turns on right leg only, both counters were the same (RBI).

- Piper: RBO rocker, RFI bracket, RBO counter, RBO double Twizzle, LFO rocker, RFI bracket, RBO double Twizzle,
- Paul: LFO rocker, LBI counter, LFI bracket, LBI double Twizzle, RBI counter, LFO rocker, RBO double Twizzle.
- conclusion: Piper had six difficult turns executed on right leg, one turn on left leg, both brackets were the same (RBI) and both double Twizzles were the same (RBO). Paul executed five diffucult turns on left leg, two difficult turns on right leg, repeated double Twizzles and counter was on different leg, both rockers on the same leg (LFO).

From all four dancers only Paul can be described like dancer with variety of difficult turns.

Covering the whole ice surface corners including:

- from judges place we have: right further corner and right closer corner and left further corner and left closer corner

- both couples had no problems covering the center of the ice and places in front of judges

- Piper & Paul: right further corner – transitions before One Foot Section and Choreographic Lift, right closer corner – transitions before Twizzles, left further corner – transitions before Assisted Jumps, left closer corner – transitions before Sliding Choreographic Movement
- Madison & Evan: right further corner – entry for Step Sequence and transitions before Straight Line Lift, right closer corner – NOTHING, left further corner – transitions before One Foot Section and Lift + Slide in the final of the dance, left closer corner – exit of Step Sequence

From all those things mentioned above it is clearly visible that Piper & Paul’s free dance was way more difficult and more fulfilling the underlined features in Composition and Skating Skills. Also Paul showed much bigger variety in difficult turns while Evan execute all difficult turns on right foot.

What led judges to score Composition and Skating Skills the way they did?
1. Did they mentioned all things above and they decided not to follow it?
2. Or they didn't mention it because of lack of time and because they had no technology which would analyse those things?

Thank you for this analysis. I am not a trained figure skater. Just a dedicated fan with years of experience watching and looking at things as deeply as I can. I could see that Piper and Paul were "dancing" much more than Maddie and Evan... and by this, I mean with the dance holds. I find it unfortunate that the sport is not recognizing this anymore. When I first started watching dance, it was all about skating very close to one another and/or in holds... and not always on two feet. The amount of cross overs by Evan is intense... and the reality is that Maddie is doing less because he carries her

In any case, I completely agree that skaters do what they are best at, and if the results do not suit me as a fan, I can only blame the judges

So here it is, one last time !!! Bravo to all the medalists! BOOOOOO judges

 

[sisinka]

I am not a trained figure skater. Just a dedicated fan with years of experience watching and looking at things as deeply as I can.

No matter from whom the idea comes from, it is the content of the idea which is important.

I like reading your ideas and opinions.

I could see that Piper and Paul were "dancing" much more than Maddie and Evan... and by this, I mean with the dance holds. I find it unfortunate that the sport is not recognizing this anymore. When I first started watching dance, it was all about skating very close to one another and/or in holds... and not always on two feet. The amount of cross overs by Evan is intense... and the reality is that Maddie is doing less because he carries her

Ice Dance changed a lot in past years, I agree.

In 2014 Free Dance with 35 cross-overs by man were criticised, in 2023 Free Dance with 46 cross-overs by man are evaluated like the best dance. In 2014 Elena Ilinykh & Nikita Katsalapov's Free Dance (their edge quality was real beauty) was criticised for too many arm in arm holds or no holds, big spacing, two-footed skating. It was so visible that even commentators were mentioning it. This season's best Free Dance is struggling with two-footed skating, many arm in arm holds leading to not ideal spacing and simple Transitions...and it is not problem anymore, on the contrary it gets the highest score. Despite many arm in arm holds or no holds Lena & Nikita spent 18.6 seconds in Killian / Foxtrot / Waltz holds during Free Dance. This season's best Free Dance contains only 7 seconds in dance holds.

Now...try to imagine...that you have to explain to your friend the difference between Pair and Dance cathegory...so you start with typical explanation... "You know in ice dance - 1) couples are not jumping (oops, Madison does assisted jump during sequence), 2) dancers skate closer to each other, 3) they have much more dance holds". Giving an example you will use excerpt from Madison & Evan's FD and Stellato-Dudek & Deschamps' SP (their Step Sequence was shorten, so the video continues with some Transitions). Will your friend recognise who is ice dance couple?

https://files.fm/u/82agdzhpj
(Btw Deanna & Maxime have rocker and double Twizzle like Transitions after Step Sequence...while the best Free Dance of this season has no difficult turns in Transitions.)

Pair skaters are trying to create more difficult programs putting dance holds into choreography. Single skaters put enormous attention to create difficult and interesting Transitions. And we all know it is incredibly difficult to do steps before triple jumps, almost impossible doing steps before quad. Despite this many skaters are trying pushing their limits, Ilia Malinin executes triple and quad axel from bracket and quad toeloop from spread eagle. Looking at Shoma Uno's Short Program, after the triple axel - the rest of the program is fulfilled with steps, even Transitions between the elements look like a part of one long Step Sequence - https://youtu.be/6FPp2NlPkBY?t=128 . It is great to watch. While the best Free Dance this season - you always know when the elements start because Madison & Evan are doing cross-overs before the element to get the speed. Madison & Evan got 9.57 and 9.50 for Composition and Skating Skills at World Championships (with fall). Shoma Uno with multiple great Transitions in Short Program got 9.25 and 9.46 in Saitama.

I hope that ISU will rethink if Ice Dance rules shouldn't come back to the old days, at least in dance holds and more difficult Transitions. And definitely couples who continue with "old day‘s" Ice Dance style (which is more difficult then today's Ice Dance style) should get more credit for choosing more difficult way.

In any case, I completely agree that skaters do what they are best at, and if the results do not suit me as a fan, I can only blame the judges

So here it is, one last time !!! Bravo to all the medalists!...

I agree with you. All medalists and many other skaters were doing their best at the moment. Big THANK YOU belongs to all who showed great skating! And to those who didn't have the best day or days here...never mind, you can show your best next year!

 

[sisinka]

We can all agree that the level of aesthetics and elegance or musicality...this is all in eyes of beholder = judge.

But I am persuaded that clean edges and turns and levels are no way subjective. We have good enough rules to determine this perfectly. And we have good enough modern technology to recognise what is clean and what is not.

In free dance I described 6 elements (Madison & Evan's Twizzles, Step Sequence and One Foot Section, Twizzles by Charlene & Marco, Piper & Paul and Christina & Anthony), 4 of those elements were called with wrong Levels. That it too high percentage of wrong calling.

Then there are other things which are fully subjective but they don’t need to be...speed, ice coverage, change of direction, variety of steps, spacing in Twizzles / transitions...all those things could be analysed better, IF there would be a wish...

How to fix some troubles?

Elements are reviewed after the program is finished.
1. Using computer program which will allow Technical specialist number 1 to cut pieces of program during live stream. Once the piece will be cut, it will be sent to Technical specialist number 2 and to judges - who can immediately start to evaluate element after element...already during the program. So no additional time because of controlling ALL elements would be needed.

Judges evaluate elements based on normal speed only video.
2. Giving judges slow motion.

Judging system became too complicated. It has thousands of requirements and even more restrictions.
3. Simplifying rules.

Technical panel doesn't have time to control ALL elements precisely.
4. Restricting number of elements with given Levels. Levels were implemented to devide skaters into group of worse / average / great technicians. But it is not working any more.

20th couple in free dance at World Championships executes Level 4 lifts and spin. At JGP Ostrava 2022 14 couples out of 17 executed Level 4 lift in rhythm dance, cute kids from Vietnam - their Skating Skills are very low - https://youtu.be/cL3Gn38oFsE -
even they got lift Level 3.

What's the sense of spending time controlling and giving Levels to lifts and spin when almost all couples get Level 4 - so as to base value almost all couples are tied? Why control at least 5 requirements and 10 restrictions in each choreo element when the base is the same for all? Another waste of time.

Choreographic lift is no less spectacular than Level lift and usually it much more reflects the music. Entry and exit features for lifts and spins are increasing number of assisted jumps. Which is no way step towards better dancing or Skating Skills.

From all elements only Step Sequences, One Foot Section, Pattern and Twizzles are real indication of technical ability of couple. The main focus of Technical panel should be on those elements.

Judges have enormous amount of things / features to control.
5. Devide judges into two groups.

"Emotional" group will evaluate Presentation only.

"Technical" group will give GOE to elements only. One suggestion from Twitter user Alison - judges would only click buttons with Positive and Negative Features, which would generate GOE.

Looking at TV screen - giving GOE takes from 3 to 5 seconds usually. There are 9 elements. This means that judges are not fully concentrating on the program from 27 to 45 seconds. The fact that judges are able to go through 12 Positive and 13 Negative Features, choose the right features for the couple, count them and click on GOE button - all of this done from 3 to 5 seconds...I am not sure that they have enough time for precise evaluation. And if they keep rethinking how good or bad was the element...they are missing the concept of the program.

Wrong camera's angle.
6. Asking Eurosport / NBC and others for cooperation to get better camera's angles.

Technical panel needs to write down all steps in Step Sequence.
7. Order of steps can be written in planned program content by skaters themselves. Order of steps or difficult turns are rarely changing during the competition.

Ice coverage, skating to all directions, variety of steps.
8. Using ice metrics - covering of ice surface corners including, entry and exit speed of Twizzles and One Foot Section. It exists in many sports, for example tennis and hockey have programs to show the trajectory of ball / puck.

If ISU doesn't have enough money, they can create rule where all couples will skate whole programs at the first or second official practise. It will be recorded and judges will have enough time to mention ice coverage and variety of steps and dance holds at least. But it will not solve the Twizzle's speed.

Audience have less and less trust in judging and GOE. Mistakes from Technical panel and GOE scoring is increasing mistrust in the whole system. (Don't believe that skaters are coaching are not seeing that as well.)
9. ISU videos after every competition - one or two judges will describe their own GOE and Component Score using example's from top 5 dance couples. One person from Technical panel will explain Levels for top 5 dance couples especially concentrating on difficult turns in Step Sequence and Twizzles - using slow motion examples.

I am sure there are many ways how to improve judging and Level's evaluation. Right now it is more like lottery...whether judges and panel mention the mistake or not...whether judges are looking at arms position in moment of struggle with edge work, so they don't mention a thing... and so on... Judges are human ones, they don't have enough time to mention everything. Panel without using slow motion for every difficult turn is mistake prone. It would be nice to correct these issues.

 

[Mathman]

Here's the University Of Minnesota's Dance Team from my judging days. They won every show except the one before Nationals when they lost to Tennessee. One judge buried them with a 5th place ordinal dropping them to second place. They did win the title at Nationals but, it sure took the wind out of their sails when they had that loss right before Nationals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q_r7kXMKLI

Thank you. Your posts are an asset to Golden Skate.

 

[Mathman]

About "working backwards," I think that this is inevitable in any endeavor that requires an artistic judgment.

A specraular example occurred when the ISU first came out with the IJS scoring system to replace ordinal rankings ("who was best? Who was second best?") following the 2002 Olympic pairs controversy. The ISU worked hard to come up with a "Code of Points." Then they tried it out retrospectively on the men's 2002 Olympic performances to see how it worked. The gold medal winner was Timothy Goebel, who did three quads.

Well, said the ISU, this will never do. Alexei Yagudin was clearly the best, so we have to refigure the point system to make it come out that way. And they did.