Coaches proposals 1-3: Judging, qualifying rounds, and general comments

[sk8ingjudge]

The US has always wanted open judging at the ISU events and does have it at US events. Maybe with the coaches getting vocal things will change for the better!

 

[Ptichka]

It's almost pointless to comment - could someone really be against this?

 

[Mafke]

It's almost pointless to comment - could someone really be against this?

Well, someone pretty obviously can. And I think his initials are OC....

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Can't they just spread sp groups over two days? Adding QR is not a solution to skating overdose. How about regional QR?

I think the problem lies in the international Worlds and not in any particular country. As I said before revise the QR and time to no more than 3 minutes.
It can also be used to seed the SP as well as eliminate those not landing in the top 30 places.

In judging this event, I do not believe a skater has to win it - just qualify. It should not be scored with the SP and the LP.

Joe

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

It's almost pointless to comment - could someone really be against this?

From my nosying around at several Worlds, I've been told most, repeat most judges want to remain anonymous. Let's face it, it is a Sport and they will be booed, if a fan thinks they are playing favorites.

Joe

 

[Mafke]

I do like the idea of exempting higher ranked skaters (I'd say top 12 from previous worlds and those who qualify for the GP final maybe a few others). This way the qualifying round isn't an agonizing ordeal but a .... qualifying round that only lower ranked and/or unproven skaters have to go through with no further consequences.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Yeah, that's the way to go Mafke, but as I said in another thread, I believe most judges want to remain anonymous.

Joe

 

[sillylionlove]

I do like the idea of exempting higher ranked skaters (I'd say top 12 from previous worlds and those who qualify for the GP final maybe a few others). This way the qualifying round isn't an agonizing ordeal but a .... qualifying round that only lower ranked and/or unproven skaters have to go through with no further consequences.

I have to agree.

Didn't they always throw out the lowest and the highest score during the 6.0 period? Why should they not do it now?

 

[Mathman]

I do like the idea of exempting higher ranked skaters (I'd say top 12 from previous worlds and those who qualify for the GP final maybe a few others). This way the qualifying round isn't an agonizing ordeal but a .... qualifying round that only lower ranked and/or unproven skaters have to go through with no further consequences.

That's kind of tricky because of how the ISU is organized around national federations rather than individual skaters.

The ISU does keep that list of individual rankings, but for the most part the champion of Outer Slobovia enters the World Championship on the same footing as Mao Asada. Asada is not there as reigning world champion, or because of what she accomplished on the Grand Prix, but because she is the designee and representative of Japan.

 

[merrybari]

I think this one is a spot on great idea! for the reasons stated.

To me this is the best and most obvious of the lot. Shouldn't matter what the judges want. Of course they'd rather be anonymous but in fact they should be held accountable for their scores and be able to support their reasoning.

 

[Mathman]

Didn't they always throw out the lowest and the highest score during the 6.0 period? Why should they not do it now?

No, 6.0 judging was completely different. Under 6.0 judging, each judge's marks were converted into an ordinal (first, second, third, etc.). No judges' marks were left out. Then these ordinals were used to determine the winner.

Under the CoP, there are two stages. First, there is a draw in which three of the twelve judges' scores are chosen at random to be thrown out. For the remaining nine scores, the highest and lowest are also tossed and the other seven are averaged to give the marks that we see in the protocols.

The coaches' proposal is to eliminate the first step. Just take all twelve judges' scores, drop the highest and lowest and average the reamaining ten.

The coaches' proposal is good for two reasons. First, ten heads are better than seven. The more scores that are averaged, the greater the statistical reliabiltiy.

Second, the random draw is stupid on its face and makes skating fans say, "what the..."

 

[merrybari]

Well said, mathman!!

 

[blue dog]

I do like the idea of exempting higher ranked skaters (I'd say top 12 from previous worlds and those who qualify for the GP final maybe a few others). This way the qualifying round isn't an agonizing ordeal but a .... qualifying round that only lower ranked and/or unproven skaters have to go through with no further consequences.

This was the old QR in the past. I forget when was the last year it was used, but I remember that Tonia Kwiatkowski couldn't get out of the QR round (and her teammate, the current US Champ, Nancy Kerrigan, didn't have to skate in the QR because she was defending world silver medalist)--and that three years later, Midori Ito, a former world champion, had to skate in a QR round.

Somewhere in the late nineties, they made it so that everyone, no matter where you were ranked, had to skate the QR.

 

[Mafke]

That's kind of tricky because of how the ISU is organized around national federations rather than individual skaters.

The ISU does keep that list of individual rankings, but for the most part the champion of Outer Slobovia enters the World Championship on the same footing as Mao Asada. Asada is not there as reigning world champion, or because of what she accomplished on the Grand Prix, but because she is the designee and representative of Japan.

I don't doubt that you're reporting the situation accurately, but I still maintain that said sutaion is stupid beyond measure.

If the ISU is going to keep individual rankings then fine, use them for something. If they're not going to use them then stop keeping them.

 

[Mafke]

If I were a judge I would _hate_ being anonymous.

Skaters put themselves on the line, hiding behind anonymity is for cowards and weasels.

 

[Tinymavy15]

I think that keeping secrets only encourages cheating. Any judge should be able to stand behind her/his scores.

 

[Mafke]

I'm a teacher and I expect to have to be able to justify the grades I assign. If I can't do that then I'm incompetent and should be fired. And the _last_ thing I want is for students or administration to not know what I've assigned and why.

Why should it be any different for judges?

One reason figure skating isn't taken seriously is that those in charge (middle aged to elderly people who really should know better) are consistently held to a _lower_ standard than the competitors themselves (who are mostly young and more often than not deserve a break when their judgement falters).

Some poor young, dumb (the two tend to go together more often than not) pairs skater takes a substance he shouldn't and he's out for two years and his eligible career is all but over. But judges caught flagrantly cheating are coddled and protected. That's morally disgusting.

 

[hockeyfan228]

Back in the day before ordinals, the actual scores were added. One 5.2 among 5.7's or 5.8's could drop a competitor's total score out of medal contention.

 

[hockeyfan228]

There were 53 Ladies in 9 groups. In general, flights tend to take 1 hour in live competition, including warmups, waiting for the skaters to start their programs, judging, announcing scores, etc.

SP's are 2'40" maximum. FS's are 4'10" maximum. Many, if not most of the SP's go to 2'40". I think FS's don't tend to go to the maximum. In the following calculation, I'm assuming a difference of 1'20" in length of the program.

Assuming that anyone competing who was in the top 12 at 2007 Worlds (all but Hughes) and won GP events (all winners of GP were in top 12 at 2007 Worlds) -- 11 in all -- there would have been two fewer flights of FS's in the quali rounds, or 42 free skates.

If two flights fewer gave them back 2 hours, the additional skating time for 42 ladies' free skates is about 56 minutes, and that assumes that it doesn't take longer to judge or review a free skate. It also assumes that it's not more tiring to judge one kind of program than another. So unless they pare the number of qualifiers down to 24 (four flights of six) or 30 (five flights of six), this proposal would have gained them about an hour this year.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Back in the day before ordinals, the actual scores were added. One 5.2 among 5.7's or 5.8's could drop a competitor's total score out of medal contention.

New to me. I was always under the impression that Ordinals ruled. That 5.2 score could be a lame duck score and would not interfere with the ordinals once a majority was declared.

When the 1s become 2s for second place and the 1s and 2s become 3rd place, etc.

Back on topic: I agree to abolish the random draw and to set the judges up so that they judge all phases of the competition.

Joe