Daniel Grassl back in Italy

[Baron Vladimir]

I'm talking generally about topic which is interesting to me, it is not connected with Daniel particularly, but with the 'possible situations' athletes may be involved in... Maybe it is not a right tread to talk about, because this one is only about Daniel, not about WADA procedures and athletes on the other hand

 

[Jumping_Bean]

We for the fact knew where Daniel was, his ISU bio, his Wiki, his social accounts are saying that. He was not hiding from the world not letting WADA where he is.. And i just don't agree that 'punishment' is a correct step in every 'rule' athletes are dealing wrongly with and it shouldn't be equally for all. Cause all the athletes are not in the same situation/environment/possibilities to deal with the things equally which is evident in Daniel case....

Failing to officially provide the proper information is a whereabouts failure all on its own and failing to update it in a timely manner is too. That someone has managed to update everything else is not something that would exonerate that person, in fact, it would actually implicate them even more, do you understand that?

It's like me not disclosing one of my streams of income on my tax declaration while posting about how much money I make on social media, and then acting offended when I am arrested for tax fraud because "they could have just looked at my social media and taxed me based on that". Do you think that all of these doping agencies and officers have nothing else to do but run after singular athletes and rectify anti-doping violations on their behalf?

And this is not even really about Daniel, this is about the principle of the issue. We all have certain responsibilities and it is up to us to fulfill them, not on others to fulfill them for us. And that goes for adult athletes just as much as for any other grown adult.

 

[el henry]

A question of procedure for those with the knowledge...When I was in the testing pool years ago, I was tested by both USADA and WADA separately. Since I was training in the US, the WADA tests were performed by the same USADA testers. I would imagine all WADA tests are done through agencies local to the athlete's current location. (So, if Daniel was to be tested by WADA, that test would be done by RUSADA or NADA Italia depending on his stated location.) What I don't know is how it works with a NADA Italia test. Would they send testers to Russia, or would they have an agreement for the test to be done by RUSADA? As many athletes train in different countries than the one they represent, I'm wondering what the process is. And, was Daniel being sought by WADA or NADA Italia?

I do not know for sure, and you sound like you had first hand experience may be better than my understanding.

My understanding is that the country anti-doping agencies rely on the testers in the country of training. For example, Jason Brown, had he been tested during training, would have been tested by Canadian testers and results sent to USADA. Daniel, had he notified authorities that he was training in Russia and living in Russia, would have been tested by RUSADA and results sent back.

But I would love to have that confirmed by someone who knows.

 

[icewhite]

I do not know for sure, and you sound like you had first hand experience may be better than my understanding.

My understanding is that the country anti-doping agencies rely on the testers in the country of training. For example, Jason Brown, had he been tested during training, would have been tested by Canadian testers and results sent to USADA. Daniel, had he notified authorities that he was training in Russia and living in Russia, would have been tested by RUSADA and results sent back.

But I would love to have that confirmed by someone who knows.

Yes, in all cases I know it's the agency of the country where the athlete resides... I'm not sure if maybe there are different rules for Russia because of the earlier doping scandal, but I am not aware of that.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

And this is not even really about Daniel, this is about the principle of the issue. We all have certain responsibilities and it is up to us to fulfill them, not on others to fulfill them for us. And that goes for adult athletes just as much as for any other grown adult.

I agree with that. However some responsibilities are made to make us more human, some of them are unnecessary and product of the corporate society, or for the organizations to function easy even if is harder for the individuals themselves. I'm just questioning the point of anti-doping procedures in some 'unordinary cases', but as someone said that is

 

[icewhite]

I agree with that. However some responsibilities are made to make us more human, some of them are unnecessary and product of the corporate society, or for the organizations to function easy even if is harder for the individuals themselves. I'm just questioning the point of anti-doping procedures in some 'unordinary cases', but as someone said that is

I'm all for change for the better, but in this case I still don't see the problem or understand you correctly. This part of the system seems fine to me. You are supposed to be at a place, it's your responsibility, you get two times to mess up, you get informed about a strike, other people from your (sportive) environment get informed, so they can tell and help you. If you want to change your location rather suddenly because you have to, you can absolutely do so. Not half an hour before, I don't know the exact time, but let's say your training camp starts earlier (as in the example a skater's mother mentioned earlier in the thread), you can just change what you have said. Those agencies have hundreds and thousands of athletes they test, you want them to search for you extensively, do detective work etc.? They already inform the athlete - why can the athlete not simply change their location in the app or, if there are any difficulties, inform the agency via another means?

 

[icewhite]

So, a serious possible explanation we have not talked about are possible technical issues/ software problems (esp. because of some software not working anymore in Russia) which are mentioned. That of course cannot be ruled out.

 

[yesterday]

So, a serious possible explanation we have not talked about are possible technical issues/ software problems (esp. because of some software not working anymore in Russia) which are mentioned. That of course cannot be ruled out.

If that's the case, the athlete who encounters that problem, would just have to contact WADA (or similar) via e-mail, phone or through the coach perhaps and clear the situation?

 

[Baron Vladimir]

I'm all for change for the better, but in this case I still don't see the problem or understand you correctly. This part of the system seems fine to me. You are supposed to be at a place, it's your responsibility, you get two times to mess up, you get informed about a strike, other people from your (sportive) environment get informed, so they can tell and help you. If you want to change your location rather suddenly because you have to, you can absolutely do so. Not half an hour before, I don't know the exact time, but let's say your training camp starts earlier (as in the example a skater's mother mentioned earlier in the thread), you can just change what you have said. Those agencies have hundreds and thousands of athletes they test, you want them to search for you extensively, do detective work etc.? They already inform the athlete - why can the athlete not simply change their location in the app or, if there are any difficulties, inform the agency via another means?

Yes i agree, however one thing is not to update (literally for them, even all the world know) your correct location, the other thing is that you are a doper. In the media and WADA procedures it is an equality (or close to equality) between those two. Daniel should be 'punished' for not updating his whereabouts, not for not wanting to do any doping test, because they didn't even try to reach him at 'the right place'...

 

[MaHa75]

Yes, and for not providing whereabouts he should be punished. But to go to the standard procedure of trying to take a test when you know for the fact that athlete couldn't be there, is what i'm calling stupid in this situation. It is not like they were trying to reach Christian Coleman 3 times and he was in USA or at the competition at least one time from those 3. Daniel Grassll couldn't physically be in Italy to be even possibly tested there.

Testing team does not know every athlete personslly... They just doing daily routine. Person who is going to test you got address where you should be on this day... They dont see all period only this day when he had to go test you. Its gdpr issues also

 

[icewhite]

If that's the case, te athlete who encounters that problem, would just have to contact WADA (or similar) via e-mail, phone or through the coach perhaps and clear the situation?

I have no idea really what that could actually mean. Maybe that the data doesn't get transferred correctly or such, that you can enter it, but there are problems you don't see from one end? No idea, I'm technically clueless...

 

[yesterday]

I have no idea really what that could actually mean. Maybe that the data doesn't get transferred correctly or such, that you can enter it, but there are problems you don't see from one end? No idea, I'm technically clueless...

Whatever it is or could be, you'd have to give notice about that and not just shrug and think "I can't do it, I'll leave it".

 

[Jumping_Bean]

So, a serious possible explanation we have not talked about are possible technical issues/ software problems (esp. because of some software not working anymore in Russia) which are mentioned. That of course cannot be ruled out.

Russia has had issues getting updates for the scoring software, which is causing them problems in competitions, so this could legitimately be an issue, though then surely this couldn't be an isolated case, right?

 

[midori green]

I do not know for sure, and you sound like you had first hand experience may be better than my understanding.

My understanding is that the country anti-doping agencies rely on the testers in the country of training. For example, Jason Brown, had he been tested during training, would have been tested by Canadian testers and results sent to USADA. Daniel, had he notified authorities that he was training in Russia and living in Russia, would have been tested by RUSADA and results sent back.

But I would love to have that confirmed by someone who knows.

That would be my assumption, but I don't know for sure. My experience was 20yrs ago in a different sport, so things have changed. (I remember submitting my daily schedules quarterly, which we all know can be a little off from time to time. This "one-hour window" sounds wonderful.) Regardless, you definitely know that updating a significant change in your whereabouts is important. And they have alternate contacts if they can't locate you. This whole thing just seems strange.

 

[AlexBreeze]

Russia has had issues getting updates for the scoring software

The problem is not that ISU doesn't send updates to Russia but that the software is not supported anymore at all.

 

[yyzskater]

As a seasoned athlete, I am sure he is well aware of the testing requirements regardless of his location. And I would have to assume that they have his contact information on file, most likely email, and he would have been informed that they were coming. But also contacted that he missed his testing each time. I can't imagine the only contact information they have for him is his street address and they are communicating with him by snail mail only.

I am not venturing a guess as to why he missed the testing. But I don't see how he was totally unaware of the situation until after it had been reported publicly. Especially since regardless of his training location, the Italian Federation must have ways to contact him.

 

[TallyT]

That's stupid bureaucracy when it is a well known fact where he is, or where he certainly is not.

But it is not the agency's responsibility to 'know' where he is, or to chase him all over the continent, it is his to make sure that they know where to reach him and be available when they do. Be reasonable, if they take on the onus of all that chasing for him, they have to do it for all of the thousands and thousand of skaters and heaven knows how many sports competitors worldwide and that's just not on. He's an adult, he wants to skate competitively, he knows this rule. If he or his team didn't make sure the change went through, for long enough that he missed three, that's on him.

And to be picky, we don't actually know that the notices did not have his Russian address on them. Or weren't emailed. Still his responsibility, unless there was demonstrably a postal/tech system failure and the notice didn't go where Daniel told them to send.

Yes i agree, however one thing is not to update (literally for them, even all the world know) your correct location, the other thing is that you are a doper. In the media and WADA procedures it is an equality (or close to equality) between those two. Daniel should be 'punished' for not updating his whereabouts, not for not wanting to do any doping test, because they didn't even try to reach him at 'the right place'...

Oh come on, I would put serious money on 99% on the 'I didn't get the notice!' claims being from athletes who very very carefully didn't receive them as an alibi. It's not a good alibi, since it's been used too often to expect people to be suspicious. I am NOT saying this is so in Daniel's case, but let's face it, it's not an excuse.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

Oh come on, I would put serious money on 99% on the 'I didn't get the notice!' claims being from athletes who very very carefully didn't receive them as an alibi. It's not a good alibi, since it's been used too often to expect people to be suspicious. I am NOT saying this is so in Daniel's case, but let's face it, it's not an excuse.

And that was my point - that Daniel's case (by training in Russia in this exact times) is different... It is not a 'Christian Coleman or Salwa Eid Naser not being available for testing' case for sure...

 

[TallyT]

And that was my point - that Daniel's case (by training in Russia in this exact times) is different... It is not a 'Christian Coleman or Salwa Eid Naser not being available for testing case' for sure...

It's not different for the testing authorities.

 

[Baron Vladimir]

It's not different for the testing authorities.

And they are not authorities of my perception of reality or the reality of other human beings on this planet