Disaster for Johnny Weir

[chuckm]

Well I think that this season has been (so far) a spectacular failure for Weir. I'm not saying this to judge him, but he has had a period of very consistent, beautiful skating followed by very inconsistent skating (at the Cheesefests, last Worlds,this year's comps). Yes I know he was injured. However Yevgeny has been competing injured the past few years and he retained his consistency. Evan has also been competing with a serious injury and he has been fairly consistent as well.

Weir has textbook technique on his jumps, however this year he has been having issues with the technique on his jumps. I don't put this all to injury. I think a lot of this is competitive nerves rather than injury. He has a lot of expectations for himself, plus he's a perfectionist. Once he makes a mistake, he doesn't seem to let it go very easily. If you look at his past performances, the best ones were mistake free. The horrible ones start with one mistake on a jump and then it's all downhill. Compare him to Buttle or Klimkin, and those guys may skate error filled performances but they don't give up after the first error. They stay with the program and try to get as much out of it as possible. Weir, IMO, seems to have the wind sucked out of his sails after a mistake.

If you're not saying Weir is having a "spectacular failure" of a season (which, btw, has barely begun) to judge him, then why ARE you saying it? Seems to me you judge many skaters and find them all severely wanting.

Evan's injury was a stress fracture in his hip, and it was in the early part of last season---when he finished no better than 4th or 5th in his GP events. By Worlds, his injury was no longer bothering him.

Weir made mistakes early in the programs of his GPs last season, and it didn't bother him enough to keep him off the top 2 steps of the podium. Buttle's errors are due to poor jump technique, not injury, so he has no recourse except to continue (and continue to make mistakes). Klimkin's errors in the past could be laid to one of two things: injury and lack of stamina. He had ankle surgery for his injury, and hasn't skated since Europeans 2004. Klimkin did tend to give up towards the end of his programs, especially if he made several errors early on.

OTOH, Weir 'gave up' at SC because he had injured his ankle while skating and was in considerable pain. He did continue to skate as best he could. But with Weir, no one is going to give the guy a break. He managed to finish 4th at Worlds 2005 while skating with an extremely painful landing foot, and in fact made fewer mistakes than two of the medalwinners.

 

[Ashwood]

Dr. Frog said: "...perhaps he (Johnny) should turn professional... ". What do you think he is now? The line between amateur and professional disappeared over 25 years ago. It is blatenly obvious that all athletes above the junior level ( and perhaps some of them), are earning money for performing their sport. Many people believe that the minute anyone accepts money or a gift in lieu of money he or she is a professional.

 

[Dee4707]

Have to defend Johnny on this one, although with the disclaimer that of course everybody is entitled to their opinions on a skater's personality on and off the ice.
One of the great things about Johnny is that at least he always has something interesting to say, which cannot be said for all athletes. It's entertaining, stimulating and sometimes controversial - but so what - this is figure skating, and we need everything we can get. On a personal note I can only say that in person he is INCREDIBLY genuine - a nice guy - not a diva, not an egomaniac (which again, LOL, cannot be said for all athletes). He is a very caring individual who really sees the big picture in life and suffers deeply for every little mistake he makes on the ice. He is a real favorite of mine.

When contemplating skaters I'd 'choose to be marooned' on a lifeboat with, Johnny is definitely on the short list.

Zanzibar, that's so sweet!! I guess I think he is a nice guy too and I love watching him skate even if he is such a flawed person like so many have pointed out in this thread.

Dee

 

[dr.frog]

Dr. Frog said: "...perhaps he (Johnny) should turn professional... ". What do you think he is now? The line between amateur and professional disappeared over 25 years ago.

Of course I know that, but "turning professional" is still widely used shorthand jargon in the skating community to refer to retiring from competitive skating and focusing on shows and other unsanctioned events.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Do not top eleigible figure skaters make more money than Pro Comps? Many of them get big bucks for COI and a few squeeze in SOI. Not sure of this. Just thinking.

Joe

 

[attyfan]

Do not top eleigible figure skaters make more money than Pro Comps? Many of them get big bucks for COI and a few squeeze in SOI. Not sure of this. Just thinking.

Joe

I think that many pro competitions give appearance fees, whereas the cheesefests (now, at least) offer big prize money -- but the money isn't big if a skater doesn't place well. The Disson shows usually draw their skaters from the pro ranks (at least from those skaters who are no longer actively competing, even if they have not formally turned pro, like Sarah Hughes), and those skaters get appearance fees. I heard that COI pays skaters a fixed amount per show; if this is true, then when the schedule is light, there isn't a lot of money to be made. I don't know about SOI.

 

[euterpe]

Skaters just don't retire and hook up with SOI. SOI pretty much signs skaters with major titles, or at the very least, World medals. Weiss has made "guest" appearances because he has two World bronze medals in addition to his US championships. There are the occasional non-champs like Steven Cousins, but AFAIK, he's the only recent cast member without a title or a World medal.
The SOI tour coincides with the figure skating season and lasts from late November into March, which is why no eligible skaters are permanent cast members.

The COI tour starts at the end of the skating season and is very short (only about 6-8 weeks in non-Olympic seasons) and most of the skaters are eligible.
COI has ties to the USFS, and US medalists frequently are invited to join the cast.

 

[soogar]

If you're not saying Weir is having a "spectacular failure" of a season (which, btw, has barely begun) to judge him, then why ARE you saying it? Seems to me you judge many skaters and find them all severely wanting.

Why is saying the truth judging him? Johnny himself says that he was skating like sh!t this year on his web page. Comparing his skating this year to last year and he is not doing as well.

Evan's injury was a stress fracture in his hip, and it was in the early part of last season---when he finished no better than 4th or 5th in his GP events. By Worlds, his injury was no longer bothering him.

Evan's injury still bothers him. I don't have a link but he has said the pain comes and goes and he has to deal with it. Don't think for a second that a guy who hasn't taken a significant time off has miraculously *healed* a stress fracture in his hip.

Weir made mistakes early in the programs of his GPs last season, and it didn't bother him enough to keep him off the top 2 steps of the podium. Buttle's errors are due to poor jump technique, not injury, so he has no recourse except to continue (and continue to make mistakes).

Weir wasn't making the huge jump errors that he's making this year. The same thing can be said about Weir's quad.There's no doubt that he can do them in practice, but he can't work up the nerve to commit to it in a competitive program and try it every time (yeah he tried it once at the cheesefest). Based on his interviews, he is fixated on skating a perfect program. It means that he does have a hard time dealing with errors in his programs. As for Buttle, he keeps trying the quad and trying the triple axel and when he fails, he continues the program and tries to squeeze every bit out of it. If Buttle let his failures get to him (as other skaters do), he wouldn't even make it out of Canadian Nationals.

Klimkin did tend to give up towards the end of his programs, especially if he made several errors early on.

What are you looking at to determine whether a skater gives up? Klimkin makes numerous errors and he keeps trying the hard elements and stays in the program. At Euros he made three big mistakes in the LP and it was still well delivered (in terms of the other elements).

OTOH, Weir 'gave up' at SC because he had injured his ankle while skating and was in considerable pain. He did continue to skate as best he could. But with Weir, no one is going to give the guy a break. He managed to finish 4th at Worlds 2005 while skating with an extremely painful landing foot, and in fact made fewer mistakes than two of the medalwinners.

I never said that Wier gave up at SC.

I was just agreeing with Dr. Frog about his fragility (reread Frog's posts for his exact views). Johnny has had a consistent run last season. However that doesn't mean that he has miraculously turned into a consistent competitor.

 

[chuckm]

Neither you nor Dr. Frog is inside Johnny's head. You do not know him personally, yet you continue to beat on him because you think he is mentally fragile.

Johnny said he was skating like crap, but he did not say his season is a disaster. He was in two cheesefests and one GP so far. The GP is the only significant competition, and he did a very fine SP there and earned a high score. The injury he suffered in the FS was unfortunate, but apparently he has recovered from it and is on track for CoR.

A less judgmental person would wait until after CoR before declaring Weir a failure.

 

[Dee4707]

A less judgmental person would wait until after CoR before declaring Weir a failure.

Well said Chuckm, I only hope that Johnny can put all the bad stuff behind him. I also hope that he can see that the injury was more important than the judges who told him to upgrade his program. I'd show them.

Dee

 

[soogar]

A less judgmental person would wait until after CoR before declaring Weir a failure.

Where in my posts have I declared that Weir is a failure? I don't equate being a fragile competitor with being a failure.

 

[dr.frog]

A less judgmental person would wait until after CoR before declaring Weir a failure.

I've never declared Weir to be a failure. As I've repeatedly said, I think he's an extremely talented skater, and I hope he can get a handle on his problems (whatever they are) and turn his season around. Even if he doesn't, that still wouldn't make him a "failure" -- he's young and will have plenty more opportunities in the future.

Personally, I'm much more fed up with those of you who feel compelled to insult other posters who say anything remotely negative about Johnny, than I am with Johnny himself. Sheesh -- if he's as great as you keep claiming he is, his skating will speak for itself, and there wouldn't be any need for you to go rushing to his defense all the time.

 

[euterpe]

I think Johnny Weir is a very fine and promising young skater who, like all skaters, has up moments and down moments in his career. I wouldn’t complain about posts criticizing his comments, his costumes, his skating---posters have a right to express their opinions.

But making judgments about Weir’s mental stability with no basis in fact goes beyond the pale, and spreading these judgments as malign gossip all over the figure skating boards is reprehensible. It is one thing to criticize a skater’s skating, it is quite another thing to mount a personal assault on a skater’s character and personality.

Dr. Frog, post #35
“From Johnny's version of the story, I get the strong impression that his illness [at Cup of Russia, 2002] was just a bad case of competition nerves, and that the team staff knew very well that there was nothing else wrong with him and sent him home in disgrace.

You read into Weir’s journal what you wanted to believe. I read the journal entry too and got no such impression. You have NO way of knowing what the team staff thought and whether or not Johnny was ill, or that he was ‘sent home in disgrace’.

Dr. Frog, post #35
"While he's a beautiful skater in many ways, Johnny has always seemed to me to be a rather fragile competitor, and I would hope that by this time he's grown up enough to get over his headcase issues and develop more mental toughness.”

You do not know Johnny personally, you cannot possibly know his personal feelings as a competitor, and you have no right to conclude that he is ‘fragile’ and a ‘headcase’.

Dr. Frog, post #49
“I was there in Dallas! I've seen *many* skaters take horrendous falls on jumps but still continue to complete their programs. But in Dallas, Johnny looked like he wanted to quit even before he started to skate. You could see that "look of terror" so many skaters get in his face.”

I saw that competition too, and what I saw on his face was a look of intense concentration with the usual dabble of nerves. Again, you read in his face what you wanted to believe.

Dr. Frog, post #57
“… looking at the even bigger picture, you forgot to mention Weir's meltdown in the free skate in the junior men's event at 2000 Nationals (when he dropped all the way from 1st after the short to 5th overall and Evan Lysacek ended up winning the title)”.

Most people would have seen that as Johnny having a bad skate (juniors frequently do that, and certainly Evan has had his own bad skates as a junior). If you look at any JGP competition, you will see leaders dropping to 5th in the FS on a regular basis, but few would describe them as ‘meltdowns’. .

Dr. Frog, post #57
” In general, Weir was kind of spotty as a junior competitor, and as someone who saw him compete regularly back then, it was obvious he was having "head case" issues with his triple axel in competition at the time. He was landing them consistently in practice for quite a while before he managed to get one in competition, and then his mental block about it disappeared.”

Most juniors are spotty competitors and it can take them a while to completely master the tougher jumps. Again, the use of the words ‘headcase’ and ‘mental block’, ---‘obvious’ to whom? You?

Dr. Frog, post #59
“It just seems that some people don't want to be reminded that he's had some problems with inconsistency, nerves, mental blocks, off-ice distractions, or whatever over the years. I had hoped that he'd gotten over that by now, but after the start he's had to this season, I'm worried the ghosts are still there screwing up his brain.”

Inconsistency and nerves plague all skaters, but most aren’t constantly pilloried as having ‘mental blocks’ and ‘ghosts in the brain’. Ilya Kulick was just as up and down in his career, and he wasn’t accused of being mentally unstable. The reality is few skaters have careers where all goes smoothly, year in and year out.

‘Some’ people don’t need or want to be reminded about unfounded perceptions on which are based a dissection of Weir’s character and personality faults. You speak of mental blocks and ghosts in his brain when you have no personal contact with or knowledge of this skater. Posting this kind of garbage all over the boards, amounts to nothing less than character assassination. From Soogar’s post (below), others are taking your baseless inferences as truth and spreading the manure farther.

Soogar: “never said that Wier [sic] gave up at SC I was just agreeing with Dr. Frog about his fragility”

 

[dr.frog]

Noting that a skater has appeared to suffer from competition nerves is "character assasination"? Get a life! You're reading far too much into this discussion. FWIW, I've had problems in the past with being nervous and even sick to the stomach when I have to give presentations in front of an audience, but I hardly consider that a grievous character flaw of my own. It's just something I've had to work on over the years to feel comfortable doing.

 

[euterpe]

Your posts go far beyond talking about competition nerves. There isn't a skater out there that doesn't suffer from nerves to one degree or another.

Repeatedly calling a skater a headcase, citing mental blocks, reading all sorts of intrigue into his illness at CoR in 2002, and bringing up every competition he didn't win as evidence of mental instability is a whole other ballgame.

Everything you have said about Weir is YOUR OPINION ONLY and has no basis in fact. You believe what you choose to believe.

From what you said about public speaking, I can't help wondering if perhaps you are projecting your own inadequacies onto Weir.

 

[dr.frog]

Whoa!! How do *you* know what's going on in my head! That's character assasination!

 

[Frau Muller]

Euterpe, you may wish to look within yourself for fanaticism and other symtoms of what some term 'mental instability,' before you continue your absurd analysis of dr. frog. Just my 50-cents worth, as first-time reader of this thread.

 

[euterpe]

I just do not understand why anyone would obsess to such an extent about a skater's supposed failings.

I think Weir reads these boards and a lot of what the Frog says is hurtful.

 

[BronzeisGolden]

Oh, how I wish there was a barfing smiley! I would certainly use it to explain how over these types of arguments I am! Is it that difficult to have rational debate AND respect someone at the same time? .....OVER IT!

 

[Sylvia]

Actually, didn't Johnny Weir state very unequivocally in an interview last? year that he knows NOT to read the Internet skating fan forums because of the negativity that can sometimes be found there/here?