Disturbing Web Page

[Piel]

My niece is 5'8" and has weighed 98 pounds (wears a size 0) since high school. She eats whatever she wants, drinks regular Pepsi never diet, loves cheese, bacon, and exercises about three times a week, sometimes runs but nothing to the extreme. Has never been sick and has loads of energy. She gained up to 148 when she had baby Ashlyn in July but is back to 110 now and into a siize 3. She is very small boned and petite except for her long legs and VERY healthy.

Piel

 

[Rgirl]

...I don't want to get into a discussion/argument about how not all thin people have eating disorders, which is certainly true, but speaking only for myself, I feel concerned for the weights of Qing Pang and the Zhang girl (corrected to Chinese pairs skater Dan Zhang)...

My mistake for bringing it up knowing I did not have the time to really discuss the issue fully. However, please note that I said I felt concerned certain skaters' weights, but never said I thought anyone had an eating disorder. I don't know enough to say so. With Sasha, I noted that last season "some people thought she was too thin" because last season some people posted that, and quoted what Sasha has said about the changes she has made in diet and why. Never used the term eating disorder there either or implied that she ever had one.

The subject of how thin is too thin and what actually is an eating disorder has been discussed a number of times before, always with a lot of opinions and anecdotal examples and unfortunately little medical or scientific data to substantiate those opinion and anecdotes. Having published on the subject, and having written a very LONG post (long even for me) that included medical and scientific data, IMO right now is probably not a good time to get into such a discussion. It's right before Nationals and this is the kind of subject that requires a lot of explanation of basic physiology; the physiologic differences between healthy thin and unhealthy thin; the criteria used to distinguish between the two; and medical and scientific data on the subject.

Except for extremes, you can't know anything about whether or not a person has a weight disorder (I prefer that term because I think "eating disorder" implies something that is solely a behavioral problem, which it is not) based on looks, unless you're doing a close-up exam, or based on solely on height/weight data. Perhaps the summer would be a better time to discuss this issue--though of course people can discuss anything they want--but I think all of us would have more time to look up and read the links necessary to learn the basic phsyiology of athletes and eating disorders in the off-season.

If people are interested now, I would suggest doing a Google search using "athletes eating disorders" or "figure skaters eating disorders" or any sport in conjunction with eating disorders for some good links to reliable information. Aside from noting substantiated examples of problems, such as Windspirit's quote of the article on ski jumpers and Piel and Mathman's info on wrestlers, I would hope this thread does not become like other threads on this subject, where people decide whether someone's weight is "fine" or not based on photos and eventually tempers flare. I know it's very frustrating and worse for people who are naturally thin to be accused of having an eating disorder when they don't and in the past emotions have understandably run high on this subject. It's precisely for this reason that I wish I'd never said anything without being able to either dig up my old "data packed" post or spend time writing a new one. Not that I'm the sole source or "last word," it's just that this is an example of a subject where I think certain information on physiology should be introduced into the discussion and where opinion as to "looks fine" or "looks anorexic" is inappropropriate unless tacked onto it is, "but I don't know what his/her actual situation is." I think it's also important to distinguish whether one is talking about a skater's aesthetic appearance, in which case opinion is fine, or a skater's health, in which case I think opinion has no place.

Of course I don't want to sound like, "Wait! You can't discuss this until Expert Rgirl has her full say!" I just think weight disorders fall into a category similar to a recent thread we had about the statistics of the COP where almost no one posting on the thread except one person had any substantial background in statistics, especially not the person who was arguing most often and most vociferously.

The person who started this thread wanted to bring to light a very unfortunate story about Yulia Lorbacheva's specific situation and abuses in figure skating in general. If people want to continue discussing this right now--I think it's an important issue, important enough that I'd rather see it discussed when people can focus on it more--I hope people try to be sensitive to the language they use (I include myself) and try to be sure they're clear about whether they're talking about their opinion or something they can substantiate with phsyologic analysis, the results of group studies, or case reports.
Rgirl

 

[Piel]

Well stated (as usual) Rgirl.

 

[Ptichka]

What I was told was that she nearly died. Her coach starved her and her weight was just north of 50lbs! She is alive, but I think she still has weight problems. She is no longer skating, but I believe she's coaching. This is what I was told, I did not hear this first hand from Yulia.

I would think it would probably have been 50 kgs.

 

[giseledepkat]

My niece is 5'8" and has weighed 98 pounds (wears a size 0) since high school. She eats whatever she wants, drinks regular Pepsi never diet, loves cheese, bacon, and exercises about three times a week, sometimes runs but nothing to the extreme. Has never been sick and has loads of energy. She gained up to 148 when she had baby Ashlyn in July but is back to 110 now and into a siize 3. She is very small boned and petite except for her long legs and VERY healthy.

Piel

Piel, your post is a good reminder that extremely thin folks can be extremely healthy, too! The salient points seem to be that your niece is neither restricting calories ("eats whatever she wants") nor exercising to excess to acheive a certain "look" -- it's just natural for her.

I remember well that when I was enjoying my fighting "trim", the best part was being able to eat anything I wanted -- and as much as I wanted! And I was only running 25-30 miles per week, which is nothing compared to the training regimen of an elite figure skater!

That is why I was worried to read that Dan Zhang was dieting to keep her weight below 100 lbs. First, because it suggests that that is not where her weight naturally wants to be -- and second, because with the amount of calories that her training must burn, to be additionally restricting caloric intake just sounded draconian to me. But I'm no expert! Rgirl, care to comment?

 

[Smiley0884]

Kirk, Pang, and Cohen all look fine to me. No EDs there. Pang is just tiny with a long ribcage. I dont know who the "Zhang Girl" is, or what she looks like, so I cant comment.

This is where ignorance comes into play. You can look perfectly fine and still have an ED. Many ED's esp, Bulimia, can go unnoticed for quite some time. Just because someone "looks healthy" on the outside doesn't mean they are healthy on the inside. Bulumia can have massive effects on the stomach, liver, kidneys, esophagus, and much more. I'm by no means saying that these girls have an ED, just that "looks" can be deceiving

 

[skatepixie]

I realize this. I just meant that none of them *look* unhealthy. Certainly none of them look as if they have to have one. You know...the people that just by looking at them you know they have one.

Personally, I dont think that the rates of having EDs is more common in skaters than the general population.

 

[Grgranny]

I'm sure hoping Tanith B doesn't have a problem. Seems as if she looks thinner every time I see her.

 

[Rgirl]

Thanks, Piel.

Gisel,
I feel the following quote of yours is right on and well analyzed: "That is why I was worried to read that Dan Zhang was dieting to keep her weight below 100 lbs. First, because it suggests that that is not where her weight naturally wants to be -- and second, because with the amount of calories that her training must burn, to be additionally restricting caloric intake just sounded draconian to me."

Smiley,
I think you succinctly and very accurately stated the very reasons why looks can be deceiving.

The following are some links for those interested in studies on eating disorders and female athletes, including figure skaters:
http://www.mirror-mirror.org/athlete.htm
"According to a 1992 American College of Sports Medicine study, eating disorders affected 62 percent of females in sports like figure skating and gymnastics."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=PubMed
Abstracts and/or citations for 143 studies on "eating disorders and athletes."

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=eating+disorders+figure+skaters
Number of hits for "eating disorders figure skaters" 16,100
Rgirl

 

[Tonichelle]

Personally, I dont think that the rates of having EDs is more common in skaters than the general population.

my freshman health teacher is big on ED and other than teen girls... ATHLETES are more prone to EDs than the general population...

 

[John King]

Aren't women in general being pushed from both sides?I heard references to Liz Manley as being 'fat',similar comments about Elena Sokolova,a few others,and at the other end worries about some skaters being anorexic!It reminds me of one issue of People Magazine where there was one article on actress Delta Burke being happy with her size,and another about a female newscaster successfully lozing weight!Talk about mixed signals

 

[Grgranny]

You are so right John. I remember the reason Karen Carpenter had problems - that killed her - after a reporter called her fat. I think it would be best that no one said anything about anyone being fat. Everyone has enough problems without people calling them names or deprecating them. How do we know they aren't reading what we write? I don't remember for sure but isn't that what happened to Mama Cass? Maybe hers was just drugs, I don't know.

 

[thisthingcalledlove]

fat comments about people in general

She didn't skate well in them, one I remember vividly was the Campbells with cupcake's first transformation to poundcake and Irina's equally dissapointing performance. They should take care of their skaters!!!

Pound cake is a horrible thing to call her...it reminds me of when I would read reports that Yulia Lavrenchuk's former coach would tell her to, "Get on the ice, you fat cow!"

I work with a bunch of girls who are very conscious about their weight, and it brought back memories of my ballet days. Even as a male, you get a lot of pressure to lose/gain. My ballet teacher wanted me at 125...for years, I was 125, then my doctor told me I needed to put on at least 25 lbs (i'm 5'7"...my optimal weight, he said is 150). The mixed signals aren't only given to girls...

 

[Ptichka]

The other side of this is that we get so paranoid. A few years ago, I put on some extra weight. I did not get "fat", but the extra weight sure wasn't needed. My mom was afraid to tell me anything, because she feared triggering an ED. Finally, she did talk to me about it, and I did lose the weight before it became too difficult to do so.

 

[skatepixie]

Taneth looks fantastic. She would make my list of most beautiful people anyday.

A normal person would be thrown off the edge by a reporter calling them fat. I never did understand why Karen C made it as a singer....she had a downright rotten voice and never was pretty or a good performer. Its very sad what happened to her. I wonder if it haddent happened if anyone would still talk about her at all...

 

[Rgirl]

The mixed signals thing is so true. You see a super thin model on the cover of most women's magazines, half the articles are about how to lose weight, yet women are supposed to be "self-empowered." One example is Oprah Winfrey. She is one of the most powerful women in media in the world and still you see headlines in tabloids like, "Tragedy for Oprah: She's Gained Weight Again!" And I think Bill Clinton finally broke the gender barrier as being the first powerful man getting dissed for his weight.

And I think Pitchka makes an excellent point that relates to that "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. Although I think the way a person's weight is discussed makes a difference, ie, with support and care vs. attack, still, with all the media pressure out there, you never know what is influencing young people.

Clearly the US as a society in general has a weight problem. But I think it's a very complex issue that is a combination of less nutrient dense food, less exercise in daily life, more time spent in cars and in front of computers (like right now, lol), more media in general like TV and computer games, and the dependance on fast foods. Plus the government and independent research groups hung on for a LONG time to unsupported notions that one's weight was purely a choice and that those who couldn't lose weight and keep it off were just lazy. Well-designed weight loss studies accounting for genetics and behavior have only conducted over about the last decade and such studies need a good 20 years to get reliable data. There is also the issue of individual differences among people. I think weight and problems related to it is going to make the medical control of infectious diseases seem--I was going to say like a piece of cake

Grgranny, re your question about Cass Elliot, it's true she took many of the drugs that were used freely in the '60s, but so did model-thin Michelle Phillips. If you've ever seen Cass's sister and mother, it's clear there was a genetic component to her problem with obesity. BTW, for general info, Cass did not die choking on a ham sandwich. She died in her sleep of heart failure, which is often related to obesity. Also, her daughter, though large, is not overweight. But Cass never revealed to the public who the father was.
Rgirl

 

[Tove]

this subject is so serious, and I do not want to say anything wrong. I'm not skinny myself but I'm not fat either, I'm somwhere in the middle, but this is a subject that concerns me, since so many young people today thinks they have to be thin to be liked and to be successful, and I wish they all would see they are all beautiful, no matter size.
Then for atlethes, it's extra preassure, since their weight is often connected to their results. In Norway now, we have excactly the ski jumping debate, since the Austrains are accusing the Norwegians ski jumpers of beeing anorextic.

Why I'm really posting, is because I have to say something about the Jian Pang. I have always seen her in a dress, and then it looks a little better, but at Cup of Russia she practiced wearing tight pants, and she did not look healthy, her bones were sticking out from her hips, and I do not say she have an eating disorder, I just say that she does not look healthy, and I feel very sorry for her, even if she is skinny by nature....

 

[SugarCoated]

See this is a very touchy subject and always gets me emotional. I have struggled with an eating disorder since i was 10 and there are many things ive learned.. Firstly many people are ignorant to the fact that having an eating disorder doesn't mean you have to be 75 pounds. For the longest time i was suffering i was at a "normal" weight yet i was so unhealthy resulting in my skin being pale and pasty and having heart palpitations (spelling.. sorry)

the thing is its very hard for teenage girls in this image obessed world of today. Especially for those in the public eye. Ice skaters have to worry about keeping their job by keeping thin and fit. Sometimes its not always that easy.

I feel for all of the eating disorded skaters as well as men and women out there. It's a tough road and it's even tougher when people are there to criticize.

 

[Rgirl]

Hi SugarCoated,
Thank you for writing such a sensitive post and sharing some of your experience with us. You make a very important point. Especially with bulimia, people can be at a healthy weight, but the body is far from healthy from all the binging and purging (eating a lot and forcing oneself to vomit).

It sounds as if you've gotten or are getting appropriate treatment and/or learning as much about your situation as possible and working hard to overcome it. Knowing most of the posters here, I'm sure they will appreciate what it takes to share such information and treat you with respect. IMO, criticizing people with an eating disorder is like critizing people who have arthritis.

I'm sure everyone here wishes you all the best in overcoming this and regaining your health. I'm close friends with people who have an ED and I know they are intelligent, successful women and in one case a young man. It's heartbreaking to watch someone you love as a friend try so hard to overcome an ED, get the best treatment, and still say things like, "One part of me knows I'm too thin and another part keeps pushing me to lose weight--and the secord force is so strong, I just don't understand why."

Thanks so much for sharing your experience, SugarCoat. Of course it's your personal business, but I appreciate your courage in telling us to help educate us all. Best of luck and lots of love to you.
Rgirl

Hi Tove,
Thank you too for posting and welcome to Golden Skate! Indeed, even figure skating costumes, which are usually quite revealing, can hide a lot. For example, one indication that a person is starving is if you can see their ribs through the skin from the back. Unless a skater wears a costume that's low cut in the back and without Illusion fabric, you never see that. Same thing with the hip bones. Of course we don't know if Qing Pang has an ED, but as I said before, the way she is thin causes me to be concerned for her. Also, we should remember that TV and photos make a person look five to 10 pounds heavier than they actually are. So if a person looks too thin on TV, they actually look five to 10 pounds heavier than they actually are.

Thanks again, Tove. It's always great to get the European perspective on skating
Rgirl

 

[Grgranny]

I most certainly agree with Rgirl's post. And if people haven't discerned this before, being overweight is also a disorder.
It also reminds me of a neighborhood I lived in in Wichita in 1952. Some of the neighbors wouldn't have anything to do with one neighbor because she had allergies. Said something like she had noticed that people with allergies were strange. Now she was the wife of a guy in the Air Force at McConnell AFB so I guess maybe I should think that all Air Force wives are strange?
I would rather be friends of the gal with the allergies!