Free Dance Cup of China

[clairecloutier]

My comments on the Shibs FD:

They skated it well technically but there was something missing from the presentation side of the house. It was a little too proper and one note in energy. If they're going to give this FD a chance, they really need to feel it and let the music wash over them and through them- the swoony, dippy feeling of the Moonlight Serenade (this is a gorgeous romantic piece that they don't need to direct towards each other but if they could inject the energy of the music into their movement and direct it out the mood could be conveyed really well), the irreverent, goofy get off your bum and dance In the Mood piece and the Chattanooga Choo Choo (there was a part where Alex was kind of getting into it and the way he cocks his head gives it a bit of sense of humor and irreverence but Maia was only doing this smile-as-hard-as-I can and really buttoned up rendition of it). They really need to let this rip and lose some of that formality that they have like they're striving hard to be straight A students (which I'm sure they are ;-)). They have the technical foundation- now really lay into the number. This piece is more about the jazz finger snaps rather than the proper ballet port de bras. That is what will get those scores up.

Having said that for this FD, I do agree with the other posters that they miscalculated with this particular style of program. It only accentuates their youth- it feels almost a step down from last year's FD. Last year's FD was fresh but Nat King Cole has a level of sophistication and formality to it that suits their style- this year's FD really needs a slightly down and dirtier, casual approach that's not quite who they are- at least not who Maia is. (She's such a mature young lady- definitely old soul.) I'm not sure it's in their best interest to switch their FD now though - this is where they are now. They should just work through it- this FD still has potential. I think that this will give them a lesson learned and really help them come up with better program ideas for subsequent seasons and also grow as artists if they can really learn to embody the character of this music a bit more.

As for B/S, they have these beautiful long-limbed bodies that really take up that ice surface but the choreography left them looking like a mess of tangled legs and arms. There's no magic or chemistry in their pairing. I feel like they're one of those "hold the Russian place" ice dance couples. The political clout of Russia is being used to hold Russia's place in the ice dance roster until they can find a truly championship couple to push toward the gold medal position.

Great post, Missysays. I agree with all your comments. I love the Shibs, but I don't think this was the right FD for them. It is overall too similar to last year's FD; yet the differences in mood and tempo that differentiate it from last year's FD are not being well illustrated or expressed. I'm not sure if the problem is the choreography or performance; maybe both.

Overall I am somewhat surprised by the traditionalism of the Shpilband/Zoueva programs this year. None of the FDs we've seen from their teams (D/W, V/M, S/S, Lichtman/Copely, the Lithuanian team) are breaking new ground in any way at all. The Lichtman/Copely FD is just a retread of Navka/Kostomarov's much better 2007(?) Austin Powers FD, while the Lithuanian team's 50s rock-n-roll number is nothing but a dim copy of Grinkov/Platov's far superior 2004 FD. Frankly it makes me wonder if Marina is running low on inspiration (which would not be at all surprising considering the amount of choreographic "product" she's putting out right now). I know these types of programs are calculated to fit the ISU's new rules about upbeat music with a definite rhythm, however, it does seem like other dance choreographers aren't following those guidelines quite so tightly, allowing them to create programs that are still "dance" but retain some of the drama and tension that's traditionally been a part of ice dance and is sort of lacking in Shpilband/Zoueva's free dances this year. Truly outstanding teams like V/M and D/W can make even the most traditional type of program glorious. However, lesser teams often can't rise to this level and need something more innovative to help them reach and stand out a bit.

Despite my slight disappointment with the Shibs' free dance, though, I am still shocked by the wide margin of Bobrova/Soloviev's win. I thought their free dance was pretty mediocre. And yes, what's with the strange posture throughout? So odd looking. It looked like they were crouched over through half the program. And the other half was skated with bent free legs and other strange positions. Their PCS scores were ridiculous, not in any way deserved IMO. The same thing happened with them last season too--they seemed quite overscored throughout the GP series.

 

[bekalc]

How did you drag V/M into this debacle? They are not here, neither were any Canadian official, nor did they make any complaint about anyone, American or European.

I think all the poster is trying to say is that every federation plays the political game, V/M's federation included. And I have to agree with those that I'm rather tired of only the Russians play politics. And I like V/M the best right now although I wish they'd branch out a bit.

I definetly think there was some political stuff going on here, but it seems like B/S win was fair too. And I don't think the Shibs were ever so superior to begin with. After P/B screwed up there were a lot of teams, at the same level, who were capable of that bronze. Now that the Shibs "got it" a lot of their flaws are going to be talked about noticed/ especially since they are a young team.

 

[nevergonnadance]

Which protocol covers "emotion"? Is there an emotion scale where "happy and young" is level 2, angst is level 3 and fierce is level 4?

Maturity in the sport of ice dance is expressed through quality of movement, depth of edge, power in the blade, speed, the ability to hold a move, relative complexity of choreography and quality of execution and technique. The emotion is style and isn't scored.

I am not a fan of Christopher Dean. All of his programs look the same. He hasn't expanded his so-called modern idea of shapes since 1984. Emily's dress looks like Tessa Virtues free dance dress from last season.

 

[NorthernDancers]

I think there are a couple things we can all agree on:
- the placements were right
- the Russian seem to be overscored for what they did
- the Shibs left points on the table


As for politics: unfortunately, it is a reality. It exists from the little levels to the highest levels, certainly within Canada, and I'm sure everywhere. Part of this is human nature. Part of this is inherent in a judged sport. It really stinks for the skaters, who become the victims in this sorry mess. That's why I love COP so much. When there is a concerted effort to take out reputation and judge by the system, the results may sometimes be surprising, but all skaters and the federation win. There is no sense in pumping one team over another. The skaters know better, and who deserved what marks. Putting skaters in places for which they are not ready only sets up failure and disappointment, which hurts the federation and demoralizes the skaters. Holding back skaters who do improve and step up demotivates and pushes good skaters out of the sport, and the federation can miss very successful opportunities.

As for my personal opinions, after watching YouTube.... I think the entire dance event was pretty weak at CoC. Normally, I am a strong B/S fan. I saw them for the first time at Skate Canada a few years ago, and thought they had potential then. These programs are not good at all. In looking at the FD, there is a ton of 2-foot skating and cross-cuts. It's a whole lot of posing and angst, and not enough content and quality skating. Frankly, it was awful. The Shibs did not deserve to win here. They made some mistakes that cost them points. As for the program itself, it was ok. They are young, fun and joyous naturally as people, so the program suits them. But I think it was not a good choice, given the supreme quality that V/M are skating this year. There will be comparisons, and the Shibs don't come even close to V/M at this point. They should have done something entirely different this year. Samuelson/Gilles should NOT have been subjected to a GP event this early in their training. They need a year to gel as a team, and then come out strong. It's not fair to them at all. I know a lot of fans are eager to see them, but this is not about the fans, but the skaters. There is no harm in taking a season to prepare and come out strong. There is potential harm in skating competitively too soon, especially on the world stage.

 

[NorthernDancers]

Which protocol covers "emotion"? Is there an emotion scale where "happy and young" is level 2, angst is level 3 and fierce is level 4?

Maturity in the sport of ice dance is expressed through quality of movement, depth of edge, power in the blade, speed, the ability to hold a move, relative complexity of choreography and quality of execution and technique. The emotion is style and isn't scored.

Absolutely spot on!

 

[alithia]

I think all the poster is trying to say is that every federation plays the political game, V/M's federation included. And I have to agree with those that I'm rather tired of only the Russians play politics. And I like V/M the best right now although I wish they'd branch out a bit.

I definetly think there was some political stuff going on here, but it seems like B/S win was fair too. And I don't think the Shibs were ever so superior to begin with. After P/B screwed up there were a lot of teams, at the same level, who were capable of that bronze. Now that the Shibs "got it" a lot of their flaws are going to be talked about noticed/ especially since they are a young team.

Exactly.

 

[chuckm]

the Shibs don't come even close to V/M at this point. They should have done something entirely different this year.

Only D/W are on the same level as V/M. No one has even suggested that the Shibs are comparable to V/M or D/W. They finished 21.48 points behind D/W and 18 points behind V/M at 2011 Worlds. I don't know why you should make such a comparison.

I'm not sold on the Shibs' program right now, but it may look a lot different (and better) later on in the season. They made mistakes in their GPs last season, but brought their performances way up as the season unfolded.

 

[colleen o'neill]

NorthernDancers and nevergonnadance ...I agree completely , so what's left for me to say ?

I didn't have a chance to post here much, but I was sort of following what was being said , and it seems to me there was a knee jerk reaction going on. When doubts were expressed as to the degree of distance between S/S and B/S , some assumed that was only because they were Russian , and I don't really think that was the case.

Are we to believe there are no politics at work in Russian skating ? Not according to all the things that were being said inside Russia when the post 2010 Olympic shake-up was going on..

B/S's win is not being disputed, only eyebrows are being raised over the margin of the win ... and many of these same posters ( including me ) are also disapproving when they feel politics come too strongly into play in their own countries' federations.

 

[Binthere]

Noting the observations made by other about the distribution of judges at this event (3 from Russia/former Soviet Union) it should not be overlooked where the technical panelists come from, as their "titles" may say ISU, but they all have native federation affiliations. Peter Durnev by way of Moscow and Monica McDonald from Australia, must have faced a challenging task this season with all of the rules. Calling a level one lift for the Shibs (still not clear on what basis, but either way that was also a nice way to widen the point difference) and the illegal move for Sam/Gilles are judgment calls which obviously have an impact. It is not just this competition, but others. I would never underestimate the power of the technical panel, and just the fact that the ISU goes out of their way to explicitly try to mask the national identities seems thinly disguised at best.

 

[CARA]

I think Russia has cheated throught the years only when they accuser is American.Sorry,but that's the truth.Not all of us are North Americans or Russians,and in Europe a lot of those cheater teams as you call them were and still are considered some of the best ever.
And one can say the same about the huge differences between Canton teams and the rest of the world.As good as they may be are they really 30 points ahead of everyone?This doesn't make cynics out of fans,because not all fans see the results as insulting.
Please, at least for once,understand that not all of the figure skating fans come from NA.And some of us are really insulted when teams we like get these kinds of comments.

What I really wonder is why S/S got 90 for that FD whereas R/T got 77 and C/L got 92 something.C/L and S/S should have more than a 5 point difference between them imo.

Are the results fair only when a NA team wins?Italy cheats,Russia cheats,everyone cheats but Canada and the US don't? And I say that being a huge V/M fan,but unfortunately from the wrong continent.

I'm only specifically talking in relation to this event based on the proven judging scandal., e.g., 2002 winder olympics. European teams have nothing to do in this context, and I would not dream of accusing them.

Also comparing the scores across events, i.e., S/S at CoC and R/T at SC, is meaningless as we all know.

 

[CARA]

Noting the observations made by other about the distribution of judges at this event (3 from Russia/former Soviet Union) it should not be overlooked where the technical panelists come from, as their "titles" may say ISU, but they all have native federation affiliations. Peter Durnev by way of Moscow and Monica McDonald from Australia, must have faced a challenging task this season with all of the rules. Calling a level one lift for the Shibs (still not clear on what basis, but either way that was also a nice way to widen the point difference) and the illegal move for Sam/Gilles are judgment calls which obviously have an impact. It is not just this competition, but others. I would never underestimate the power of the technical panel, and just the fact that the ISU goes out of their way to explicitly try to mask the national identities seems thinly disguised at best.

1. I could not agree more. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Let us see who scored what, and let us hold the judges accountable.

2. I still do not have clear idea just how the heck the Shibs' lift was deemed only the level 1 lift.

 

[Mrs. P]

I didn't have a chance to post here much, but I was sort of following what was being said , and it seems to me there was a knee jerk reaction going on. When doubts were expressed as to the degree of distance between S/S and B/S , some assumed that was only because they were Russian , and I don't really think that was the case.

Are we to believe there are no politics at work in Russian skating ? Not according to all the things that were being said inside Russia when the post 2010 Olympic shake-up was going on..

B/S's win is not being disputed, only eyebrows are being raised over the margin of the win ... and many of these same posters ( including me ) are also disapproving when they feel politics come too strongly into play in their own countries' federations.

I agree totally.

I did not take nationally into account when I criticized B/S EXCEPT when I complained about her posture. And that's only because quite frankly, the Russians have had a long history of beautiful lines and posture in Ice Dance. As Doris said, how Bosolva managed to get out of the Russian ice rinks and into international competition with that posture is beyond me.

And at risk of opening another can of worms to make the point that all federations politic, just look at Skate Canada with W/P vs. C/P last year. Clearly C/P was established by TBTB to be Canada No. 1 during V/M's absence and they were scored as such no matter what W/P bought to the ice. (But that said, W/P also did not do themselves any favors by making all those little errors either...)

But really, the team that probably would be angry about the scoring, The Shibs, seem to be taking it all in stride:

"We feel like this is a great stepping stone for us," said Maia Shibutani. "We're competing next week, so we're looking forward to the process."

I think they are more focus on what they're doing and what they have to work on and worrying less about how much they lost by or politicking. That's why I believe they are still in the game.

 

[Buttercup]

Noting the observations made by other about the distribution of judges at this event (3 from Russia/former Soviet Union) it should not be overlooked where the technical panelists come from, as their "titles" may say ISU, but they all have native federation affiliations. Peter Durnev by way of Moscow and Monica McDonald from Australia, must have faced a challenging task this season with all of the rules. Calling a level one lift for the Shibs (still not clear on what basis, but either way that was also a nice way to widen the point difference) and the illegal move for Sam/Gilles are judgment calls which obviously have an impact. It is not just this competition, but others. I would never underestimate the power of the technical panel, and just the fact that the ISU goes out of their way to explicitly try to mask the national identities seems thinly disguised at best.

Ah yes, Australia, that well-known Eastern bloc country.

I'm only specifically talking in relation to this event based on the proven judging scandal., e.g., 2002 winder olympics. European teams have nothing to do in this context, and I would not dream of accusing them.

Not that I wish to dig up that dead horse, but nothing was ever "proven" regarding SLC. Ms. La Gougne changed her story so many times that I don't think the truth, whatever it was, will ever be clear. Oh, and IMO, the moment was two judges marking B/S second in the SP. I'm sure you can guess the nationality of one of them.

 

[gmyers]

Tracy Wilson was like "alex left that lift too early!" that was leveled at 1

 

[Mrs. P]

Tracy Wilson was like "alex left that lift too early!" that was leveled at 1

I think the Shibs knew they got their level 1 the moment they got off the ice. Didn't Maia say something like "I think we got a downgrade" during the Kiss and Cry before the scores were even posted?

 

[dorispulaski]

R&H got a similar downgrade at SA-and it was due to the fact that Asher had to use two hands during the lift to stabilize it. That made it a 2 handed lift for technical calling purpose, and then it fell into a multiple downgrade situation, because suddenly the rotational lift needs more rotations to get higher levels than a one armed lift.

(I assume we are talking abut the rotational lift in the Shibs SD, since that was the only level 1 they got).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRz1qsYoC_8#t=3m8s

To get Level 2, this is what the Shibs needed to have:

OPTION 1
Lifted partner sustains a Difficult Pose
through at least 3 rotations or moves through
a Change of Pose
AND
Lifting partner moves through at least 4
rotations
OPTION 2
Lifting partner in One Hand/One Arm Lift through at least 2 rotations

If Alex didn't make 4 rotations, it's not level 2, and he didn't in either of the positions, so it drops back to level 1, unless he was in 1 hand for 2 rotations, so you have to count between when he put his arm out and when Maia breaks out of the position to dismount. If it isn't 2 full rotations, it's level 1.

To get higher levels, you have to meet the Level 2 requirement, plus additional features. But if you don't meet the Level 2 requirements, extra features don't count.

 

[MissIzzy]

Actually, I think B&S being comfortably over the Shibutanis in the short dance is justifiable enough. First because of the levels(and if the skaters knew it immediately I don't think you can think that a political move), and also because just by overall impression, the Russian had a lot more danciness and a bit less stiffness, and their errors were less noticeable.
But how did they beat them by seven points in the free? That I've yet to find any reason for.

 

[lcd]

But really, the team that probably would be angry about the scoring, The Shibs, seem to be taking it all in stride:
I think they are more focus on what they're doing and what they have to work on and worrying less about how much they lost by or politicking. That's why I believe they are still in the game.

I agree. Maia and Alex are two really CLASSY and remarkably sophisticated young people. Met them both at Harvard's Evening With Champions show a couple weeks back and Maia is NOT your "normal" teenage girl. Alex is spot on when he has been quoted saying she is a 30 year old trapped in a 17 year old's body. Has been said before. Girl has an old soul. Alex has a quick wit and sparkle in his eye that reminds me a lot of Kurt Browning (another CLASS ACT who I have had the pleasure of being impressed by off ice on several occasions).

There is not a chance that these two are naive as to what goes on behind the numbers in this sport, and what went on at this event in particular. But, true to form they are taking the high road, and seem to be rising above it.

When really young relative newcomers achieve unprecedented success, there is inevitably a reflex to step up the level of scrutiny and criticism. No surprise. The other consequence, at the same time, is that more seasoned athletes for whom much is expected ASAP, are getting their "reinforcements" called in. To an extent, I expect to see this in the wake of the remarkable debut from Tuktamisheva at Skate Canada. Her prodigious technical display earned total points which topped the field, and while her artistry obviously reflects a level of progression which matches more her age, comments range from reasonable to @#$%. But as this agitation unfolds, I always hope young athletes especially are able to maintain perspective. It seems to me, that this is partly what could be happening with the Shibutanis so far this season. None of this then is really surprising.

In a back stabbing, political world like skating, where money is also drying up (which makes matters only worse), for athletes who aren't essentially being "paid" to pursue the sport, it takes a true love for the sport, a thick skin, a lot of maturity, and hopefully the ability to rise above. From reading posts from certain 'regulars' whose allegiances are no mystery (described as "detractors" but that seems way too kind) I am sure nothing would make them happier or at least relieved than if the Shibutanis were made to disappear. Skating fans can hardly complain that they don't already get their fill of entertainment from skaters with level 4 "attitude" is concerned. There are plenty of "divas" and those who can be counted on to play blame game the first time anything doesn't go the way they hoped. Not seeing this from Maia and Alex and it is a welcome thing in my book.

 

[dwiggin3]

I agree. I was not impressed with the Shibs LP...not at all.

 

[dwiggin3]

I wonder if it's time for the Shibs to split and find new partners. I would not normally encourage a team with such history to split but I think their lack of chemistry due to their brother/sister relationship. They are young and have time to adjust to new partners. While I'm not certain who they would partner up with and admit that it may slow their upward trajectory a year or so, in the long run, it might be for the best.

Any thoughts?