Judging Critiques/Continuation of Plushenko’s Allegations

[alexocfp]

Since the Plushenko thread was closed, I opened this one to discuss the judging in further detail.

Well, Plushenko did exaggerate the “fall” it must be said.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Now I happened to watch this competition live on the stream - I'm a big Kirill fan - and I would definitely classify what happened to Mark as a fall. He also had a few pops and he was a lot rougher in the FS compared to the SP.

Kirill had the fall on the 3A, but the rest of his program was super solid, he rightly won the free skate

I did briefly question how - even with his lead from SP, Mark was able to make up the gap, but he did - mostly on PCS, which was very high, 76 in comparison to Kirill's 69.

Looking at the score breakdown thing - http://www.ffkm.ru/images/files/online/2021-01-13_Kubok_Moskvy/SEG013.HTM it looks like it was the pesky transitions mark where Kirill fell down As someone who finds super busy programs distracting and difficult to follow I'm always going to have trouble with someone losing on the transition mark.

It has to be said though...I do find it hard to believe if the skates had been reversed ie. Kirill had a quad, a fall and two pops, and Mark had one fall but no quad that this would have been the outcome.

Perhaps Plushy is complaining about the wrong thing...but then if bringing up technical stuff is a minefield, bringing up PCS would be even worse!

Or I guess he could just make sure his skaters have more transitions, but I wince at the thought of so many frantic, busy programs.

 

[flanker]

Since the Plushenko thread was closed, I opened this one to discuss the judging in further detail.

Well, Plushenko did exaggerate the “fall” it must be said.

Agreed, that definitely wasn't a fall in the sense how falls are judged in figure skating. And Plushy esp. should've held his words about "falling on the butt" in his mouth because that simply is completely absurd, if I may use part of the title of the former thread. With this type of comments about 13 y. o. boy he only damages himself more, esp. when anyone can watch it with his own eyes.

BTW it wouldn't make any change even if Mark would have received -1, just by simple looking into the protocols (only one judge gave -3 to Mark and Kirill finished first in the segment so he actually was "better" according to judges today) and final results (where the order would be still the same).

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Agreed, that definitely wasn't a fall in the sense how falls are judged in figure skating. And Plushy esp. should've held his words about "falling on the butt" in his mouth because that simply is completely absurd, if I may use part of the title of the former thread. With this type of comments about 13 y. o. boy he only damages himself more, esp. when anyone can watch it with his own eyes.

BTW it wouldn't make any change even if Mark would have received -1, just by simple looking into the protocols (only one judge gave -3 to Mark and Kirill finished first in the segment so he actually was "better" according to judges today) and final results (where the order would be still the same).

Sorry what is the complaint with this Mark kid? That jumping pass should have been -5 across the board, no question. A -5 isn’t just for a fall, he bailed on the rotation of the jump, touched down, etc. -3 is definitely a head scratcher unless the judge thought it was a step out on an over rotated Double toe instead of a downgraded triple toe which to me seemed like a more correct call.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Sorry what is the complaint with this Mark kid? That jumping pass should have been -5 across the board, no question. A -5 isn’t just for a fall, he bailed on the rotation of the jump, touched down, etc. -3 is definitely a head scratcher unless the judge thought it was a step out on an over rotated Double toe instead of a downgraded triple toe which to me seemed like a more correct call.

Indeed I thought it was a popped jump with a fall myself!

The thing is it's all well and good for judges and tech panels to give the benefit of the doubt, but I'm concerned that this doesn't extend to everyone the judges judge. Like if judge #5 wants be a harsh marker that's fine if it applies to everyone. But if they only do it to some skaters, but not others it's inherently unfair. Sure Skater #1 might not be "known" for underrotations while Skater #2 is, but that doesn't mean Skater #1 can't ever underrotate and vice versa.

TBH I've been thinking on this and it doesn't apply to this specific competition, but I think if the judges and Tech Panel can't or won't use slo-mos taped by the broadcaster then they shouldn't show us. Because then it just becomes agitating when you see something wrong on the slo-mos but the scores are like "Nothing to see here".

If the judges miss it, why show us and then not expect people to be like "What the-?"

 

[Amei]

Indeed I thought it was a popped jump with a fall myself!

The thing is it's all well and good for judges and tech panels to give the benefit of the doubt, but I'm concerned that this doesn't extend to everyone the judges judge. Like if judge #5 wants be a harsh marker that's fine if it applies to everyone. But if they only do it to some skaters, but not others it's inherently unfair. Sure Skater #1 might not be "known" for underrotations while Skater #2 is, but that doesn't mean Skater #1 can't ever underrotate and vice versa.

TBH I've been thinking on this and it doesn't apply to this specific competition, but I think if the judges and Tech Panel can't or won't use slo-mos taped by the broadcaster then they shouldn't show us. Because then it just becomes agitating when you see something wrong on the slo-mos but the scores are like "Nothing to see here".

If the judges miss it, why show us and then not expect people to be like "What the-?"

Broadcasters are unlikely to ever not show those kind of slow motions because they need to fill time between when skater takes their bow and when they get their scores, plus it does build up suspense and the slow-motions help educate fans on the different jumps. Additionally, the internet exists and there are fans that take the Youtube video and slow it down to snail speed and blow-up forums/twitter with edges/pre-rotation/under-rotation, etc.

Regarding Plushenko's latest comments, sigh, I think he needs to either get a PR manager, get a new PR manager or listen to his PR manager. The landing he's saying was a "fall" today but not counted as such was almost exactly identical to a landing that Trusova had in the second cup stage that wasn't called a fall either (for full disclosure to avoid anyone saying I'm picking on Trusova, Valieva had a similar landing). It seems like if his skater doesn't win, he's always got an excuse of how its not their fault and it's never that the other skater just happened to do better at that competition.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Broadcasters are unlikely to ever not show those kind of slow motions because they need to fill time between when skater takes their bow and when they get their scores, plus it does build up suspense and the slow-motions help educate fans on the different jumps. Additionally, the internet exists and there are fans that take the Youtube video and slow it down to snail speed and blow-up forums/twitter with edges/pre-rotation/under-rotation, etc.

Well then show them in the KnC or replay the jump in real time and DON'T focus on the feet. It'd be like if tennis had Hawkeye, but the players were never ever allowed to use it. It's almost cruel.

Regarding Plushenko's latest comments, sigh, I think he needs to either get a PR manager, get a new PR manager or listen to his PR manager. The landing he's saying was a "fall" today but not counted as such was almost exactly identical to a landing that Trusova had in the second cup stage that wasn't called a fall either (for full disclosure to avoid anyone saying I'm picking on Trusova, Valieva had a similar landing). It seems like if his skater doesn't win, he's always got an excuse of how its not their fault and it's never that the other skater just happened to do better at that competition.

In Plushy's defence I'm pretty sure at no point has he claimed Sasha should have won or medalled st Rostelecom. He complained about how Sasha was scored at Nationals, for which I think he has a point.

It seems, at least to me that when skaters from Eteri's group come on, the tech panels expect them to be the best and only look for the good things. On the other hand Liza N or Sofia Samodurova come on and they immediately think "It's the underrotaters! Sharpen your eyes guys!" This may be human nature, but it still sucks and I think it's something that needs to be worked on. Sure you can just throw up your hands and put it in the too-hard basket, but as I said at least be consistent about it.

If they're not going to bother focusing on Anna and Daria's Lutz edges it's pretty low of them to focus on Sasha's flip edge. To me that just looks like them finding a reason to take points off.

Since flips and Lutz edges are notoriously difficult then tech panels should always check them. To do anything else is unfair because why should one skater always be scrutinized because they have a "reputation" for a bad edge?

Even Liza Tuk has flutzed in her life. Why should she get away with it if it happens even though it's rare? And if she wins purely because the tech panel didn't check that's the most unfair thing I can think of.

Also regarding Nats, 20 points is an enormous margin to win over someone by, was Anna better than Sasha at Nats, apparently yes. Was she twenty points better? I don't think so.

And what annoys me most? Sasha can only make up that difference by adding more quads, but with she does add them, people here are so mean and nasty about it "No artistry" "Just a jumping bean" "Ruining the sport". All these things have been said about Sasha. But then when she doesn't she can't win. Is not the point of competing winning? Why should Sasha get scorn heaped on her when she tries to do all the quads she can? It's not her destroying the sport it's playing to her strength and she doesn't deserve to get blasted for it.

 

[flanker]

Sorry what is the complaint with this Mark kid? That jumping pass should have been -5 across the board, no question. A -5 isn’t just for a fall, he bailed on the rotation of the jump, touched down, etc. -3 is definitely a head scratcher unless the judge thought it was a step out on an over rotated Double toe instead of a downgraded triple toe which to me seemed like a more correct call.

If one judge gave -3 he gave -3, the problem (complaint) is Plushenko demands a fall when it wasn't and uses the description that is, well, not in compliance with what actually happened. He says "my boy was better" in his statement and according to the judges he truly was, I provided the link. So, he:
1. breaks into an open door,
2. he states things that are not true.

 

[anonymoose_au]

If one judge gave -3 he gave -3, the problem (complaint) is Plushenko demands a fall when it wasn't and uses the description that is, well, not in compliance with what actually happened. He says "my boy was better" in his statement and according to the judges he truly was, I provided the link. So, he:
1. breaks into an open door,
2. he states things that are not true.

OK Kirill won the FS, but he still lost over all and they question still stands, was Mark's score fair? Do you think his FS was worth 76 in PCS when Kirill only got 69? Am I missing something important here?

Whatever happened to popped jumps being worse than falls? Apparently that's been the case since IJS began and now suddenly it's not?

 

[flanker]

OK Kirill won the FS, but he still lost over all and they question still stands, was Mark's score fair? Do you think his FS was worth 76 in PCS when Kirill only got 69? Am I missing something important here?

Whatever happened to popped jumps being worse than falls? Apparently that's been the case since IJS began and now suddenly it's not?

It is worse to pop jump than fall from a jump. If Mark would have jumped 4T with a fall, he would have received 3.75 point (4.75 with -1 deduction), this way he received 0.74 point. Don't understand what's the problem here. As for the problems with PCS, you don't want to hear "who deserves what".

 

[anonymoose_au]

I guess I don't. I found Mark's FS messy and insecure, Kirill showed more control aka skating skills and interpretation. His elements were on the whole cleaner than Mark's. At Russian Nationals everyone was banging on about how it's quality over quantity. Now all of sudden quads are where it's at. I'm confused.

I can see how this can be extremely discouraging though. Like why bother showing up if Eteri skaters are there? I feel like everyone else is just wasting their time, you only live once. If no matter what you do another skater will just win anyway...The Angels of Plushenko could be gaining an actual education right now...instead of slogging away for hours and hours a day.

Man, Plushy has wasted a LOT of money...

 

[Anoosheh]

Since the Plushenko thread was closed, I opened this one to discuss the judging in further detail.

Well, Plushenko did exaggerate the “fall” it must be said.

Can you provide more details on what happened and what he said?
I didn't watch that competition. Are there any videos of that fall?

 

[flanker]

Can you provide more details on what happened and what he said?
I didn't watch that competition. Are there any videos of that fall?

Plusheko's words (in russian).

Lukin's skate is linked above in my first comment, also with the link to protocols.

 

[Lechat]

Well Plushy was also complaining in Vancouver when he did quads and Lysacek didn’t and won.

It’s a pity to see that a great champion is always complaining. Can’t he just take it easy ? Instead of badmouthing about Eteri and her students, he should just ask her for some advices or help.

 

[anonymoose_au]

Instead of badmouthing about Eteri and her students, he should just ask her for some advices or help.

OMG this is the funniest thing I've ever heard!!

Plushy asking Eteri for advice and help? Are you serious?

She thinks he's a fraud!

Her advice? "Get the Hell out of skating."

 

[Alex65]

Well Plushy was also complaining in Vancouver when he did quads and Lysacek didn’t and won.

It’s a pity to see that a great champion is always complaining. Can’t he just take it easy ? Instead of badmouthing about Eteri and her students, he should just ask her for some advices or help.

Thank you for not advising him to bring the students back. After all, only this will help them to receive the well-deserved remuneration for their work. Plushenko cannot provide his students with preferences in refereeing, like Eteri, rather the opposite, as many here believe. It is possible that those people are right who argued that Plushenko buys his students for money, like goods on sale. Luring them into his academy personal touch and promises the best conditions for professional and training. Without the support of the federation behind their backs, no one can count on anything. Do you think Eteri can give him advice on how to get this support? If this advice is "work and be silent", then you can ask other trainers how it works. Panova, Volkov, Cherkasova, Alferova and many others. Whose athletes, in whom the coaches put their time, health, soul, at some point find themselves in Khrustalny.

 

[Scott512]

Since the Plushenko thread was closed, I opened this one to discuss the judging in further detail.

Well, Plushenko did exaggerate the “fall” it must be said.

No kidding.

And speaking of no kidding Plushy was the benefit of generous scores dozens if not hundreds of times in his career.

 

[Scott512]

Broadcasters are unlikely to ever not show those kind of slow motions because they need to fill time between when skater takes their bow and when they get their scores, plus it does build up suspense and the slow-motions help educate fans on the different jumps. Additionally, the internet exists and there are fans that take the Youtube video and slow it down to snail speed and blow-up forums/twitter with edges/pre-rotation/under-rotation, etc.

Regarding Plushenko's latest comments, sigh, I think he needs to either get a PR manager, get a new PR manager or listen to his PR manager. The landing he's saying was a "fall" today but not counted as such was almost exactly identical to a landing that Trusova had in the second cup stage that wasn't called a fall either (for full disclosure to avoid anyone saying I'm picking on Trusova, Valieva had a similar landing). It seems like if his skater doesn't win, he's always got an excuse of how its not their fault and it's never that the other skater just happened to do better at that competition.

Last paragraph says it all.

The paragraph before that was darn good too.

 

[Scott512]

Well Plushy was also complaining in Vancouver when he did quads and Lysacek didn’t and won.

It’s a pity to see that a great champion is always complaining. Can’t he just take it easy ? Instead of badmouthing about Eteri and her students, he should just ask her for some advices or help.

Did you really say that?

Plushe's boy lost a close competition and it was a close competition. Those go either way

The good thing is when the pandemic is finally over and International competitions are back in style (Anya might be 20 then) then plushies skaters won't be suffering the wrath of the Russian judges anymore in the domestic competitions like they allegedly are.

And his Eteri made skaters are not quite as good as Eteri top two made skaters now.

Sasha and aliona knew what they were doing and they knew they would lose the alleged Eteri bounce. We still don't even know if the bounce is real or not.. I'm leaning yes though.

N reality the judges need to be better in all aspects of figure skating these athletes work too damm hard to not have their performances properly analyzed and scored.

Like I said that competition with those 2 guys was very close and could have gone either way. That's figure skating that sports and that's life.

 

[anonymoose_au]

No kidding.

And speaking of no kidding Plushy was the benefit of generous scores dozens if not hundreds of times in his career.

Oh of course...when other skaters win by huge margins like Anna and Kamila it's clearly because of their superior skating. They ALWAYS deserve their huge scores...in fact they should be scored more!

Plushy just got lucky... constantly... I don't even know how he got out of novices honestly, the hack.