Let the Competition and Complaining Begin!

[bekalc]

A skater could land a quad - bank twice the points of landing a good triple lutz and fall, step out of or have minor GOE errors on the rest of their jumping passes and it not matter one bit because of a landed quad. I for one would not be happy with skating going in that direction.

If you want 12 points - get working on that quad axel.

As opposed to a skater with only one triple axel in the long program getting a HUGE score highest of the season because of GOE's and PCS. In fairness Abbott who had a clean program with two triple axels at the GPF should have the highest score, but under this system. Noooo. Joubert getting more points on his quad, would not have changed the results of last year's World Championships. You still have to do the other stuff....

I'd be cool with doing other changes such as giving more credit to difficult combinations, making PCS fairer, and hey maybe upping the value a bit for level four footwork and spins...And also perhaps the triple axel upping it too. But yes, I think a quad toe deserves a big advantage over a triple lutz.

 

[Buttercup]

If you want 12 points - get working on that quad axel.

Actually, a quad axel has a base value of 13.3. Yes, I looked. No, I don't expect to see one any time soon .

 

[shine]

I want them to do more than just triple jumps, because those just aren't that "exciting", unless there's a unique entry or something else that's cool. Also, Lambiel was not the last or only skater to combine all that. Though he certainly was awesome.

You mean a quad toe, in addition to triple jumps. Sure, insert that in my post, and it doesn't really change my point.
And I could have included Takahashi in my post too, which I forgot. So Takahashi and Lambiel are the last to combine great skating skills, footwork, and exciting jumps in their skating. Please point me to other wonderful skaters after Lambiel and Takahashi who have been doing this as well.

 

[bekalc]

In his short program Joubert's footwork does get the crowd on its feet, and his skating skills are very good.

He just needs to be less stiff with his upper body, and well get better long programs and more transitions.

 

[antmanb]

Ant, your argument over the last few posts (I couldn't quote all of it) is interesting and I see your point, but I don't think I agree. Specifically as to the reason for the lack of quads quads, from what I've seen in protocols, negative quad GOEs are a huge hit (-1 GOE = -1.6 from the base value), while positive quad GOEs are the same as for triple. What's the point of that? It's one more thing adding to the risk. I don't want figure skating to be just about quads but right now I think it's gone too far in the other direction and the ISU needs to find a way to balance the art and the sport of figure skating.

Personally I think the new values for the jumps are enough of an increase (ignoring the one point deduction for a fall, if a skater falls on a rotated quad he gets more points than a base value triple flip - is that really right?). I agree with you that the +GOE should be in line with the -GOE otherwise it basically sends the message that errors on the quad are penalised far more than attributes to the jump are rewarded and that is completely wrong.

I think that the balance right now is right. I think it is correct that a clean performance full of triples should beat a performance by a skater with a clean quad and an error on one or two of the triples.

If a quad is valued beyond anything else the skater can do, to my mind we are forgetting that the performer is on the ice and skating to music. If we want to see how many times a person can turn in the air put them on a trampoline! The ice is part of the performance and to my mind the biggest point getters should be things to do with the skating and not necessarily the turns a skater performs in the air.

Joubert, as bekalc and I have noted, has put in a tremendous amount of work on his spins, and they are miles ahead of what he was doing earlier in his career. He worked with Lucinda Ruh earlier this month, hopefully that will have helped. I think his footwork is fine as it is, it fast and fun and powerful. If he wants to up the levels he needs more upper body movement, and that's just ugly.

I think the only reason Joubert bangs on about the value of a quad is because he can actually land one with consistency. He wants the rules changing to benefit him, and that's it. If he was so concerned with the future of the quad then how about suggesting that the quad toe and quad sal are left as they are but quad loop, flip, lutz and axel be increased to much higher points, to encourage people to start landing them? The reason is that it wouldn't benefit him.

Ant

 

[Buttercup]

You mean a quad toe, in addition to triple jumps. Sure, insert that in my post, and it doesn't really change my point.
And I could have included Takahashi in my post too, which I forgot. So Takahashi and Lambiel are the last to combine great skating skills, footwork, and exciting jumps in their skating. Please point me to other wonderful skaters after Lambiel and Takahashi who have been doing this as well.

Leaving aside Joubert, because I'm a fan and obviously not objective, I believe Tomas Verner, when he's on, is a really complete skater and a true joy to watch. I'd rather watch him than Patrick any day. Well, maybe not when he has a Hidden Czech day, because those are just depressing.

Jeremy Abbott, though his quad has been MIA this season. Maybe this week.

 

[antmanb]

Actually, a quad axel has a base value of 13.3. Yes, I looked. No, I don't expect to see one any time soon .

But the quad lutz is less than 12 so i went one up!

Ant

 

[Buttercup]

But the quad lutz is less than 12 so i went one up!

Well, we both know the first skater to land a clean quad Lutz in competition will get "wow" GOEs, and it'll stay that way for a while.

When I was checking this, I saw that I was right - negative quad GOEs have a higher value than positive quad GOEs. how does that make sense? Sure, penalize it if it's bad. But reward it the same way.

 

[shine]

Shine if the quad is worth more points, I don't think it's going to stop skaters from still wanting to have difficult footwork, spins etc.... I mean not having your levels up loses points and so that will continue.

But the fact is many of them men don't even both with the quad any more in the long program much less the short program. You don't think Joubert is right that many of the guys aren't saying that's not important..?

So yes, I agree with Joubert that the quad needs to be worth more. This doesn't mean footwork/spins should be neglected anymore, but just that quad isn't worth enough.

Bek, I actually edited my post a little to add that perhaps the quad could be given more points, but at the same time, it should not be worth more than a good triple when it's a failed attempt.
Anyway, my point was really to object to the part of Medusa's post which seemed to hint that more emphasis should be put on jumps (and maybe spins?) and less on the rest because "we already have a discipline for the rest". I don't agree with that at all, because to me that would take away so much from singles skating. I can't imagine singles skating to be a collection of elements and nothing much in between. That would be incredibly boring to me.

 

[Mathman]

As the rules are now, the jumps count about 75% to 80% of the total base value in a men's LP.

For instance, at 2008 worlds we saw

Buttle: jumps 56.23
Non-jump elements 18.70

Joubert: jumps 53.89
Non-jump elements 14.50

The stated goal and ideal of the CoP is a "well-balanced program. " I do not think there is much of a case to made for giving more points for jumps.

Even so, the ISU is listening to the athletes. They increased the value of both quads and triple Axels by about 9% for the 2009 season (7.5 to 8.3 for a 3A and 9.0 to 9.8 for a 4T.) Maybe there will be further increases as time goes on.

For comparison, the highest score available for a non-jump element is 3.5 for a level four combination spin with change of position and change of foot -- the same as a double Axel.

NO. Level four footwork is really subjective and relies on a caller. Heck maybe they should increase the points, but the fact is that one day's level footwork can be not level four footwork the second time.

Same with a quad. One today's caller says it's underrotated (4.0 points minus GOE), tomorrow's caller says it's not (9.8 points.)

 

[shine]

Leaving aside Joubert, because I'm a fan and obviously not objective, I believe Tomas Verner, when he's on, is a really complete skater and a true joy to watch. I'd rather watch him than Patrick any day. Well, maybe not when he has a Hidden Czech day, because those are just depressing.

Jeremy Abbott, though his quad has been MIA this season. Maybe this week.

I have to admit that I haven't been paying attention to Verner, and perhaps I should. And I agree Abbott could be exciting too when he brings the goods. However when I said exciting jumps I was thinking about the jump content of skaters like Yagudin and Plushenko, who had multiple quads or triple axels in their programs. That's why I originally said Lambiel, who seems to me to be the last skater to put *equal emphasis* on jumps AND the rest of his skating. He would be my example of a singles skater who did well in the "ice dance elements" as well as jumps.

 

[Medusa]

Here's an article on Brian's response:

http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/s...tml?id=1424358

Give the Frenchman full marks for taking the high road.

Classy responses by a classy Frenchman. He might be a bit careless sometimes, but he was old and wise enough to keep his calm here.

Well, maybe not when he has a Hidden Czech day, because those are just depressing.

But he basically had only Hidden Czech moments this season. It's such a shame. I agree on the complete skater part though, I think Takahashi and Verner have the complete package in a very similar way. Lambiel was even a bit above them, he was / is a genious.

 

[dancingqueen]

Complete package skater to me is no one. And it’s very subjective.

 

[Mathman]

When I was checking this, I saw that I was right - negative quad GOEs have a higher value than positive quad GOEs. how does that make sense? Sure, penalize it if it's bad. But reward it the same way.

The way that makes sense is because you do not want a skater to get a higher score for falling on a quad than for standing up on a triple.

When they raised the value of a quad toe to 9.8 insread of 9.0 they had to adjust the maximum GOE deduction to -4.8 instead of -4.0. That way, in both instances if you rotate a quad but fall your total score for the element, after the fall deduction, is exactly the value of a triple toe, 4.0.

They could raise the values for positive GOE's (so that you could get a maximum of 14.6 instead of the current 12.8 for a really fine quad toe), but I so not see any compelling reason to do so. (Symmetry for the sake of symmetry does not seem a compelling reason to me.)

By the way, if the rules did allow a skater to get as high as 14.6 for a quad toe with +3 GOE, then that one element all by itself would score higher than all six of Joubert's non-jump elements combined, going by his 2008 worlds total of 14.5.

 

[astimegoesby]

I'd also love to see a full transcript or video of this press conference. This sure doesn't sound like the same Patrick Chan who I thought was much too hard on himself after criticizing his own less-than-perfect winning Skate Canada program last fall.

This is also the first time I've heard Patrick say anything even remotely unsportsmanlike towards another skater, so I certainly hope this is just a case of one or two statements being taken out of context and/or blown out of proportion. I also hope Patrick and Brian will both be able to put their money where their mouths are and back up their statements on the ice today.

 

[Hsuhs]

Lambiel was even a bit above them, he was / is a genious.

What do Lambiel and Chan have in common? Both are:

1. Judges' pets
2. Have trouble with 3A
3. Genious

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[seniorita]

i think the solution to all this is plushy to come back, then we will all discuss his inflated pcs again and quad mark wont matter alot!
sorry.. i m waiting next group of men and eurosport shows some riding horses

 

[Medusa]

What do Lambiel and Chan have in common? Both are:

1. Judges' pets
2. Have trouble with 3A
3. Genious

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Nice one. But you are right, the judges infuriated me more than once by giving Lambiel outrageous PCS in order to keep him on the podium - most ridiculous example is Cup of Russia 2007, where an 8 Triple program from Kozuka didn't allow him to get a medal because especially Lambiel but also Buttle were held up by the judges. I just don't think it's right, I think you have to bring the tech in order to gain good artistic marks. As much as I love the artistic aspect of the sport - but if e.g. a program like Chan's LP at Skate Canada gets 78 in PCS, I just don't get it. And it doesn't send the right message in my opinion. I don't care that Bradley didn't have any choreography, has rather rocky skating skills etc. - he brought his A-game, he didn't spend his time on his butt, he didn't delete a 3-2-2 combo from his program.

If KVDP and Chan have the same clean jump content - then Chan wins. If Bradley and Chan have the same clean jump content - then Chan wins. If Joubert and Buttle have the same jump content (2 Triple Axels + 6 Triples is nearly the same as 1 Triple Axel, 1 Quad and 6 Triples) - then Buttle wins because his spins and footwork are a bit better. But this "it doesn't matter if I crash on my 3A, because my spins are better" is not good for the sport in my opinion. It takes one of the very few objective questions away from the sport - the question "how many jumps did Skater A land cleanly?". The whole UR issue and edge calls made even this question less objective - not so much for the men though, only if your name is Lysacek and you insist that you got perfect Triple Axel technique.

 

[skatingbc]

I'd also love to see a full transcript or video of this press conference. This sure doesn't sound like the same Patrick Chan who I thought was much too hard on himself after criticizing his own less-than-perfect winning Skate Canada program last fall.

This is also the first time I've heard Patrick say anything even remotely unsportsmanlike towards another skater, so I certainly hope this is just a case of one or two statements being taken out of context and/or blown out of proportion. I also hope Patrick and Brian will both be able to put their money where their mouths are and back up their statements on the ice today.

I would love to see a transcript too. I also think there were comments written by the journalist that could have possibly made the whole interview seem more negative towards other skaters than it actually was.

 

[Poe-Kat]

Patrick Chan... Not A Cad After All... lol

Saw the fluff... O.K.... I like the guy. He's personable, candid,and smart. He has also redeemed himself IMHO. His program tonight was perfect, though sans quad. Methinks his prior comments must have reached the judges, which is why they checked him into the Smack Down Hotel. Who says you can't interject personal emotion in the new judging system?

I so wanted him to fall on his tail feathers, but he didn't do it. He skated flawlessly. Obviously the judges saw fit to reward Joubert for his efforts. Let's face it, quads ARE important in striving for the "complete package".

I love Joubert and I love Lysacek and I have to admit that I kind of like this Chan kid too!