Let the Competition and Complaining Begin!

[Tonichelle]

everyone seems to need to take a step back and chill. the stupid skating has just started and everyone's already at each other's throats. :sheesh:

 

[NatachaHatawa]

What I'd really like to get my hands on is a full transcript of the interview. I don't agree with a lot of the stuff that Patrick said, but I've got a feeling the media is playing it up a lot. The last article on the matter that was linked to on this thread made Patrick sound just awful and really nasty. It would be great if we could get our hands on a video.

 

[Buttercup]

Well, exactly one year ago I registered on GS and jumped in on the Great Quad Debate of 2008. Now it's one year later, and once again we are back to the same issue... So: this is also my 1000th post, and since the first one sums up my thoughts on the matter and seems quite topical in light of some of the comments in this thread, here it is again - well, the relevant part of it, at least:

What bothers me about the direction this debate is taking is the implication that a skater can either be a soulless quad machine or an artistic skater who can't quite do certain jumps. I'd rather combine the points I think Joubert and Buttle were getting at: that an elite skater should be doing the hardest jumps - those being quads - but that these should be part of a complete repertoire of skating skills and elements. It's not mutually exclusive - just more difficult.

My only addition to this is that I get the feeling Brian is fine with the added emphasis on spins and footwork in CoP - he just wants the quad to be more valued in relation to triple jumps, and for people to be trying it.

Someone said, or someone wrote in an article this season: there already is a skating discipline that is all about edges, footwork and intricacy: it's called ice dance.

Me! That was me! I think it's wonderful to have skaters doing having great edges and footwork, but I don't want to see the more "dancey" aspects of skating overemphasized at the expense of the athletic side of it (or, to quote Jeremy Abbott: "I want to be an artist and an athlete." You tell 'em, Jeremy!). Combine the skills and the footwork with the hardest jumps (and by that I mean quads and 3As) and I'll be far more impressed.

BTW, I love ice dance.

And what if a skater wants to skate with good edges and beautiful footwork AND do the exciting triple jumps? I think the key is to find a balance; and technically speaking, an ideal skater would be able to do exciting jumps with a good amount of non-jump difficulty. I think Lambiel was the last one to really achieve that.

I want them to do more than just triple jumps, because those just aren't that "exciting", unless there's a unique entry or something else that's cool. Also, Lambiel was not the last or only skater to combine all that. Though he certainly was awesome.

Shine if the quad is worth more points, I don't think it's going to stop skaters from still wanting to have difficult footwork, spins etc.... I mean not having your levels up loses points and so that will continue.

But the fact is many of them men don't even both with the quad any more in the long program much less the short program. You don't think Joubert is right that many of the guys aren't saying that's not important..?

So yes, I agree with Joubert that the quad needs to be worth more. This doesn't mean footwork/spins should be neglected anymore, but just that quad isn't worth enough.

:agree:

 

[mycelticblessing]

I want them to do more than just triple jumps, because those just aren't that "exciting", unless there's a unique entry or something else that's cool. Also, Lambiel was not the last or only skater to combine all that. Though he certainly was awesome.

:yes: I love seeing skaters do more than triples. I always feel thrilled when someone lands a quad!

Lambiel was one of the very few skaters who had the jumps the spins and the footwork. I think the only current competitive skater that does that as well as Lambiel did is Takahashi.

Happy 1000th post!:agree:

 

[antmanb]

I believe jourbert did indirectly attack him. He stated that he believe Evan to be his main competition because he had a quad. Now I think it a very disrespectful to dismiss the GPF champion and the guy with the highest score (because they haven't peformed a quad) and pick Evan as his biggest threat(who might not even medal).If that is not a personal attack of some sort, I don't know what is.

Any kind of "indirect" attack, by it's very definition is not a personal attack.

When Joubert is asked every year who his main competition is, he names one maybe two skaters tops. He always mentions the ones with the quad. Neither Abbot nor Verner nor (comlpete the least with the rest of the male skaters competing at worlds) chose to be insulted by Joubert and come out with inappropriate personal attacks on Joubert.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I think Medusa meant that Buttle didn't have the best of any of those, but was strong (ie good) in each of those areas. You can't call strong but not the best in any of the three areas of tech mark "great tech". I'd call it good tech.

But value judgments of "strong" and "good" are personal opinions. For me no-one out-did Buttle on spins - even Lambiel they were on a par for me in terms of COP spins because Lambiel was much better doing his blinding spins under 6.0, when he COP'd them - two were very fast and strong (and not level 4) and the level 4s were not up to the same level of execution. For me Buttle was at least as good if not better (Lambiel's camel position was sometimes not very good).

Again with step sequences - personally I love Buttle's steps - his Jazzy circular steps are always intricate fast and go with the music perfectly, I'm hard pushed to find anyone else's step sequences I like more (again in competition).

That's why I think he has great tech (I also think he has one of the best triple toes in the business and can put it on the back of any jump.)

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Shine if the quad is worth more points, I don't think it's going to stop skaters from still wanting to have difficult footwork, spins etc.... I mean not having your levels up loses points and so that will continue.

But the fact is many of them men don't even both with the quad any more in the long program much less the short program. You don't think Joubert is right that many of the guys aren't saying that's not important..?

So yes, I agree with Joubert that the quad needs to be worth more. This doesn't mean footwork/spins should be neglected anymore, but just that quad isn't worth enough.

Ok but if you look at it point for point a quad toe is worth what? 9? 9.something?

I am totally guessing but the highest point scoring spin is what - a flying combo spin with a change of foot, at level 4 being something in the region of 4 points base mark?

So a quad toe is already worth more than twice the points of the most difficult spin that can be accomplished. Isn't that already heavily weighted in favour of the jump? That many points for something that takes 0.5 secs in a program compared the time taken to execute a difficult spin - a skill that requires actual skating ability not rotation in the air and off the ice?

If the guys want to get more points for the quad then let them go for the quad flip or lutz, or better yet the quad axel - that has loads more points than a simple quad toe. If the points of the quads go up off course people can neglect spins - the difference between getting a level 2 and 4 is what a fraction of a point, or just over a point in some cases? That means you can go for a quad and neglect the levels on other things.

If the value on teh quad goes up and the other value on other elements doesn't go up, then themessage sent is - it's all about the jumps folks, that's all you need.

I'd be happy to see the value of quads go up, if the value of +2 GOE and +3 GOE level 3 and level 4 spins and footwork starts to approach at least the base value of the quads.

Ant

 

[bekalc]

Ant, in men's singles jumps are more important than footwork. Since every man has to do footwork, someone with better footwork can still make up some points. Besides you don't see that many men falling on footwork, you do see them falling on quads, which suggests that quads are riskier.

In the case of Patrick, I think Patrick know has no room to talk about someone talking behind someone else's back, based on his recent interview.

 

[seniorita]

AAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, mens competition starts in a while (or not, i m confused with oversea hours), I hope they dont make grand declarations anymore and just speak on the ice!
Grab your popcorn!

B: happy 1003 posts!

 

[antmanb]

Ant, in men's singles jumps are more important than footwork. Since every man has to do footwork, someone with better footwork can still make up some points. Besides you don't see that many men falling on footwork, you do see them falling on quads, which suggests that quads are riskier.

But i don't see why that means that quads should be given even greater points than they already have. Yes people can make up some points by doing more difficult spins and step sequences but it is literally just one or two points - so about the same as a low level double jump. There isn't enough scope to get enough points.

I would also add that quad jumps are more plentiful than level 4 footwork - which is a rarity. Does that mean level four footwork is more difficult that a quad?

Ant

 

[bekalc]

But i don't see why that means that quads should be given even greater points than they already have. Yes people can make up some points by doing more difficult spins and step sequences but it is literally just one or two points - so about the same as a low level double jump. There isn't enough scope to get enough points.

I would also add that quad jumps are more plentiful than level 4 footwork - which is a rarity. Does that mean level four footwork is more difficult that a quad?

Ant

NO. Level four footwork is really subjective and relies on a caller. Heck maybe they should increase the points, but the fact is that one day's level footwork can be not level four footwork the second time. The Quad should be worth more because more people will attempt it it's worth more. The fact that so many men aren't attempting it who can do it, suggests that it's not worth enough.

 

[antmanb]

NO. Level four footwork is really subjective and relies on a caller. Heck maybe they should increase the points, but the fact is that one day's level footwork can be not level four footwork the second time. The Quad should be worth more because more people will attempt it it's worth more. The fact that so many men aren't attempting it who can do it, suggests that it's not worth enough.

Hasn't the value of the quad increased this season? So where are all these extra people attempting quads because it is worth more?

The real reason we are not seeing so many quads attempted is not that they are not given enough points it is because of the under-rotation double penalty. If a skater does not consistently rotate the quad - and lets face it any skater trying to get a new jump will under-rotate it a lot as they start to stand it up - it is not worth being hit with the base value of a triple toe and taking the GOE hit as well.

If the rationale for increasing the point value of the quad is because you want to see more, then i think that is something that needs to be considered carefully by TPTB. Do people really want to see more quads? I don't think that a majority do - the risks of injury of training it, the fact that skaters need the length of the rink to set one up etc doesn't seem to me like it would be a clear majority of yes's to that.

I think on a bigger picture list of "things which should be given greater and/or any points at all in order to encourage their inclusion in programs", there are far more things that people would want over and above more quads or quad attempts. If it's jumps that flaot your boat then i would suggest toe-less lutzes and walleys being added into the scale of values with commensurate base values based on their difficulty - they would surely be the hardest jumps in their revolution count category. Walleys generally are up there with at least lower level doubles, so a triple walley could justifiably be given a higher base value than a quad toe or quad sal.

Ant

 

[bekalc]

Hasn't the value of the quad increased this season? So where are all these extra people attempting quads because it is worth more?

The real reason we are not seeing so many quads attempted is not that they are not given enough points it is because of the under-rotation double penalty. If a skater does not consistently rotate the quad - and lets face it any skater trying to get a new jump will under-rotate it a lot as they start to stand it up - it is not worth being hit with the base value of a triple toe and taking the GOE hit as well.

If the rationale for increasing the point value of the quad is because you want to see more, then i think that is something that needs to be considered carefully by TPTB. Do people really want to see more quads? I don't think that a majority do - the risks of injury of training it, the fact that skaters need the length of the rink to set one up etc doesn't seem to me like it would be a clear majority of yes's to that.

I think on a bigger picture list of "things which should be given greater and/or any points at all in order to encourage their inclusion in programs", there are far more things that people would want over and above more quads or quad attempts. If it's jumps that flaot your boat then i would suggest toe-less lutzes and walleys being added into the scale of values with commensurate base values based on their difficulty - they would surely be the hardest jumps in their revolution count category. Walleys generally are up there with at least lower level doubles, so a triple walley could justifiably be given a higher base value than a quad toe or quad sal.

Ant

We are seeing less quads but still tons of injuries...Spins cause a lot of injuries too you know.

And I agree that maybe the double penalty should be lessened a bit for the quad. BUT, I still suggest that if the quad toe was worth 12 points like Joubert suggests, that more skaters would try it becuase the almost nine point difference between the quad toe and a double axel would be punishing for those who don't have the quad. It wouldn't be impossible to get passed it but it would be punishing.

 

[skatingbc]

Sometimes I feel that Joubert just wants the quad's base value to increase because he doesn't want to improve his spins and footwork...

I don't think more skaters will attempt more quads if the base value is increased. If they are still going to get UR calls then what's the point if the quad gets downgraded to a triple anyway?

 

[bekalc]

Sometimes I feel that Joubert just wants the quad's base value to increase because he doesn't want to improve his spins and footwork...

I don't think more skaters will attempt more quads if the base value is increased. If they are still going to get UR calls then what's the point if the quad gets downgraded to a triple anyway?

What if it doesn't. People who never hit might not go for it, but people who are landing it 60% of the time in practice just may.

As for Joubert, Joubert has worked very very hard on his spins. Joubert is saying that he wants it increased after the Olympics. I wonder if he'll even continue if he wins or medals at the Olympics.

 

[skatingbc]

What if it doesn't. People who never hit might not go for it, but people who are landing it 60% of the time in practice just may.

I would just rather see skaters do what they can do and do it well. I don't want to see skaters attempt quads, fully rotate but fall, and then are placed higher than skaters that skate cleanly without a quad. If the quad's base value gets increased to 12 pts, I don't want to see skaters attempt it, fall, and still get around 7 pts for it. That's ridiculous to me. We'll end up seeing skaters deliberately going into performance knowing that they are most likely going to fall on the quad, but hey, they'll still get a handful of points. JMO.

 

[NatachaHatawa]

Here's an article on Brian's response:

http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/story.html?id=1424358

 

[Buttercup]

I hope they dont make grand declarations anymore and just speak on the ice!

B: happy 1003 posts!

1. Definitely agree :agree:.
2. Thanks - it's on account of having so many opinions I just have to share .

Hasn't the value of the quad increased this season? So where are all these extra people attempting quads because it is worth more?

The real reason we are not seeing so many quads attempted is not that they are not given enough points it is because of the under-rotation double penalty.

Ant, your argument over the last few posts (I couldn't quote all of it) is interesting and I see your point, but I don't think I agree. Specifically as to the reason for the lack of quads, from what I've seen in protocols, negative quad GOEs are a huge hit (-1 GOE = -1.6 from the base value), while positive quad GOEs are the same as for triple. What's the point of that? It's one more thing adding to the risk. I don't want figure skating to be just about quads but right now I think it's gone too far in the other direction and the ISU needs to find a way to balance the art and the sport of figure skating.

Sometimes I feel that Joubert just wants the quad's base value to increase because he doesn't want to improve his spins and footwork...

Joubert, as bekalc and I have noted, has put in a tremendous amount of work on his spins, and they are miles ahead of what he was doing earlier in his career. He worked with Lucinda Ruh earlier this month, hopefully that will have helped. I think his footwork is fine as it is, it fast and fun and powerful. If he wants to up the levels he needs more upper body movement, and that's just ugly.

BTW, Yannick Ponsero appears to share Joubert's opinion re the quad. They both seem to think that if they do quads, maybe it will inspire others to try it - one can only hope! The interview is worth reading if only to find out more about his inspiration for the great Ski & Surf EX.

 

[bekalc]

I would just rather see skaters do what they can do and do it well. I don't want to see skaters attempt quads, fully rotate but fall, and then are placed higher than skaters that skate cleanly without a quad. If the quad's base value gets increased to 12 pts, I don't want to see skaters attempt it, fall, and still get around 7 pts for it. That's ridiculous to me. We'll end up seeing skaters deliberately going into performance knowing that they are most likely going to fall on the quad, but hey, they'll still get a handful of points. JMO.

Just because they increase the base value for a landed quad, doesn't mean that I don't think that a fall on a quadtoe should get you 7 points... Maybe the extra two points for a clean quad can be a "bonus" or something...

I just think that the sport has gone to far in the other direction as Buttercup said...

 

[antmanb]

We are seeing less quads but still tons of injuries...Spins cause a lot of injuries too you know.

I know that spins do cause injuries too, however, the argument you are advancing is not upping the score of spins to encrouage people to do them (most elite skaters are doing level 3 or 4 anyway) you are asking only for the quad's score to be increased to encourage people to do them so it's a moot point.

And I agree that maybe the double penalty should be lessened a bit for the quad. BUT, I still suggest that if the quad toe was worth 12 points like Joubert suggests, that more skaters would try it becuase the almost nine point difference between the quad toe and a double axel would be punishing for those who don't have the quad. It wouldn't be impossible to get passed it but it would be punishing.

I fail to see why that would be a good thing. Having one element worth so much more than anything else. What about GOE? It would simply become the be all and end all in a performance and i fail to see why that would be a good thing.

A skater could land a quad - bank twice the points of landing a good triple lutz and fall, step out of or have minor GOE errors on the rest of their jumping passes and it not matter one bit because of a landed quad. I for one would not be happy with skating going in that direction.

If you want 12 points - get working on that quad axel.

Ant