NBC Sports OlympicTalk: Where are the quads in pairs’ figure skating?

[NaVi]

Here's a new article from Lynn Rutherford at NBC's Olympic Talk:

Where are the quads in pairs’ figure skating?

At the 2015 World Figure Skating Championships in Shanghai, five of the top seven pair teams attempted a quad element in their free skates, but a pair hasn't done a quad in three years. So, why aren’t pairs trying quad twists and throws anymore?

olympics.nbcsports.com

Here's a some threads on quad throws and twists:

• https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/the-quad-throw.55768/
• https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/the-quad-twist.51788/
• https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/trankov-quadruples-should-be-banned.58385/
• https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/t...ow-quads-in-pairs-be-worth-more-points.52363/

 

[NaVi]

I wrote a comment a month ago describing a possible way of incentivizing quad throws without making pairs think they need to go for them to win.

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When it comes to the debate on pair quads I'm firmly on the side of discouraging them because they're more risky, the women is less in control of them yet the one likely to be injured, and they make the discipline that's already has recruitment issues even more elitist. It would also further restrict the body types that elite pairs would need. I'm also not convinced that they are needed to "progress" the sport to differentiate top couples as I think it would be better to just add another jump pass whether throw or side by side.

The BV for pair quads was lowered after the 2016 Olympics and even before then many people thought they were undervalued for the difficulty. I'm mostly supportive of that devaluing. But now we have no one even thinking about doing them now. The way Duhamel/Radford and Kavaguti/Smirnov did not feel too unsafe to me.

But what if a successfully executed pairs quad counted as a GOE cushion or "insurance" on another element? That is, a successfully executed pairs quad would neutralize the negative GOE on one another element. For instance, if a pair pulls off a positive GOE quad twist and then one of them falls in the side by side jumps then the negative GOE for that jump element could be neutralized to zero. The GOE cushion would not provide any benefit if they go clean in the rest of their elements but would keep the pair in the hunt if one of their other elements had a major mistake.

I think doing this might make a pair or two think about trying quads without making others feel like they really need to go for them.

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TBH, if we get to a point where it's hard to differentiate top couples then I'd much rather re-add the 30 seconds and add in another jump pass than to incentivize quads.

And going a bit OT, I think figure skating could benefit from a "rule" or "requirement" randomizer kind of like video game randomizers that change up the game in order to make it fresh again. It would make records useless, but having different program requirements year by year(but perhaps have the Olympic requirements always be the same) could make things fresher.

 

[ladyjane]

Interesting. I have read an earlier article on this, and I think there should be some changes. Perhaps to go back to the earlier BV's for these elements? But it might depend on the element.

Aljona and Bruno's Triple twist was stunning, superb, fantastic and deserved great levels and high GOE. Do we need a quad version in the competitions if a triple can be spectacular in itself? I'm not sure. Most triples aren't that good, so with a badly executed quad you might surpass that excellently executed triple in points and get an advantage. Not today (though you could until the 2018-2019 season), as a badly executed quad gets you less points than a well executed triple nowadays. Why would you take the additional risk, as a twist is risky anyway and the points added are few? Would we look forward to seeing badly executed quadruple twists while there are great triple examples? And it's very risky. I love the twist as an element (explosive, unique, spectacular), but I'm not sure about this one. The quad's I've seen (until 2017-2018) never qualitatively were at the level of a well executed triple, while they did get more points. H'mm. And I certainly don't wish for even more scary falls. So, I'm in doubts about this one,

With the throws it's slightly different. The 'flipping' of BV already existed until 2018 (a double axel throw had a higher BV than a single skater double axel jump. but a triple axel throw had a lower BV than a single's 3 axel), and Meagan and Eric gave a great interview to International Figure Skating Magazine to explain this. Yes, there is an additional risk to get 3-Axel throws and quadruple throws, but in my view a smaller one than with the twist. And they changed the BV to make it even less attractive to try it. That I don't get at all. Of course the risk is high. But we don't mind men and ladies taking that risk. Pair girls are the toughest ever. So why not make it more attractive to go for a quadruple?

The article makes no mention of SBS quadruples. But we do still see the jumps with higher BV in the triples coming up...Meagan and Eric really set a trend there with their triple lutzes. And more pairs are working on other SBS jumps than the triple toe and salchow. Having said that, the SBS jumps more often than not are the weak part of any pair. Would doing quadruple SBS jumps really be realistic, especially with so many pairs having quite a bit of a height deferential making synchronisation difficult? It's a question, I haven't got the answer to. It could be a way to bring the sport forward, could but not should. I have my doubts.

I also like the other direction in pairs though: Ice Dance with Pair elements. We see a lot of that these days, especially in the Dance lifts that don't count as pair lifts, but can help in increasing the choreographical level (and points), the twizzels (though never as good as Dancers do) and so on. Pairs aren't dancers, but taking some of their great edges, their feel for the music, etc. can be useful in improving the Pairs further.

Last remark: I've seen the splat fests in men (and it took me until last weekend to really appreciate a programme with many quads that still also was choreographically sound and was more than jump-to-jump), I am now seeing them in the women (and it's still jump-to-jump in women with many quads - actually there's only one and she's a great athlete but her programme last weekend bored me), and I really wouldn't wish pairs to go into the splat fest area. Letting alone the additional dangers that I discussed earlier.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The ridiculous devaluing of Quads in Pairs, making it so that it's not worth attempting any at all, while simultaneously forcing singles skating to be about 5-Quad programs, is the height of hypocrisy.

 

[skylark]

I really wouldn't wish pairs to go into the splat fest area. Letting alone the additional dangers that I discussed earlier.

This sums it up precisely.

Pairs is already dangerous, exciting, and there's a ton of variability in the skills and qualities of the top ten in the world, let alone the top 24 or 30 in the world. As we saw last week.

There's absolutely no reason to take away more of the beauty, synchronicity and harmony of pairs skating in favor of adding mistakes.

ETA: One more thing: It seemed to me that Savchenko/Massot demonstrated with their Olympic year programs that high quality skating and elements are more of what the judges want to see, and far more of what audiences want. That's why the rules were changed. People are always talking about re-watching Aljona and Bruno's FS frequently when they want to feel inspired or happy, and being brought to tears all over again. As opposed to people who talk about re-watching programs of D/R, J/C or S/H because of a quad twist or a quad jump or quad throw. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that. When they want to watch their favorite programs of J/C or S/H, it usually isn't because of the quads.

 

[RobinA]

Last remark: I've seen the splat fests in men (and it took me until last weekend to really appreciate a programme with many quads that still also was choreographically sound and was more than jump-to-jump), I am now seeing them in the women (and it's still jump-to-jump in women with many quads - actually there's only one and she's a great athlete but her programme last weekend bored me), and I really wouldn't wish pairs to go into the splat fest area. Letting alone the additional dangers that I discussed earlier.

Yes. I would argue that Pairs is already a splatfest with most teams and the SBS triple. Pairs used to be my favorite discipline and now I sometimes skip it all together. Artistry is really lacking as the Pairs race from element to element, many doing things that aren't even executed very well. Men's and Women's are largely the same. but at least in Men's every now and then a skater manages to do an interesting program that also has a lot of Quads.

 

[Blades of Passion]

People are always talking about re-watching Aljona and Bruno's FS frequently when they want to feel inspired or happy, and being brought to tears all over again. As opposed to people who talk about re-watching programs of D/R, J/C or S/H because of a quad twist or a quad jump or quad throw. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that.

The quad throw of D/R definitely made the program more exciting. The quad twist of many teams was also extraordinary to see and gave those performances something extra. You don't need to those elements to have a great program of course, but they should be worthwhile things to include, options. Competitive advantage for people who can already do amazing programs and want something extra to push themselves to the top of the field. Some competitors like D/R found it more enjoyable to push themselves like that and it in turn made their overall skating better, because they were more connected to what they were doing.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Throw Quad jumps are actually probably less dangerous than triple twists.
I understand Quad twists are dangerous, but throw quads (e.g. salchow) aren't anywhere near the danger of throw Quad twists.

I think discouraging throw quad jumps is targeting a specific pair perhaps.

 

[SpiffySpiders]

Hello.
Here I am, that elusive person who re-watches programs for quad twists and quad throws (and who would mark out like mad for SBS quads).
And here's my dirty secret - I've never been moved to tears by a skate. Not every fan has an artistic sensitivity.

I was irked at the devaluing of quad elements. Part of what I like about pairs, and why it grabbed me right from childhood, is the danger aspect. I want to see athletes push physical boundaries and, yes, that does come with an injury risk. All sports are risky to some degree.

I'm far more apt to re-watch and share skates that include eye-catching, "wow" elements than I am those that are perhaps more moving or happy, not only because that's what I like best but also because most people I know, the folks I'd be sharing clips with, are at least somewhat interested in sports with a "go big or go home" feel. To be blunt, I am the only person I know offline who is under 60 years old and watches figure skating beyond more than a couple of skates every four years, if that. Among my everyday peers it's widely considered a sport that's fun for recreation but a bit outdated, while also coming with an awkward emphasis on gender stereotypes and weight for girls. Speed skating is the non-hockey ice sport that's growing locally; it lacks much of the subjectivity (not all, especially short track!) and is considerably more affordable for average families. Figure skating is a hard sell in my social circle and it helps to be able to point out in an obvious way that it's not just sparkly costumes and gliding around.

This sport needs audience growth in most, obviously not all, markets. I'd like to think there's a way to attract existing and potential fans who only want to see beautiful, clean, artistic performances, those who most enjoy the pursuit of technical difficulty and those who seek a combination while knowing that programs with falls or less grace will inevitably win on many occasions due to TES. Top champion skaters get there by combining skills that fit into the PCS and TES categories - that's why they win gold medals - but rarely does anyone excel equally at both. There needs to be room in the rules, and acceptance from the judges, for skaters that favour grace or power. Now how to judge that without leaving many skaters no chances to win and without alienating an entire segment of fans is the problem.

 

[LadyB]

Interview with Fedor Klimov in his capacity as a member of the ISU technical committee for singles and pair skating. He does not believe the scoring for pairs' quads will change prior to the Olympics.

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Член ÑеÑниÑеÑкого комиÑеÑа ÐеждÑнаÑодного ÑоÑза конÑкобежÑев (ISU) Ð¤ÐµÐ´Ð¾Ñ Ðлимов ÑаÑÑказал, ÑÑо ÑÑоимоÑÑÑ Ð¿ÑÑжков в ÑигÑÑном каÑании до ÐлимпиадÑ-2022 не измениÑÑÑ.

www.sports.ru

Google translation:

Fyodor Klimov: "Before the Olympics-2022, the cost of jumps will not be changed for sure, and it doesn't look like it continues"​

Fyodor Klimov , a member of the technical committee of the International Skating Union ( ISU ), said that the cost of jumps in figure skating will not change until the 2022 Olympics.
“The cost of jumps, I think, will not be changed in the near future. Before the Olympics, definitely not, and it doesn't look like it continues. For the cost of paired elements, I would raise the question.
At one time, the cost of quadruple elements in pair skating was deliberately lowered so that couples did not risk it.
Now, as a coach, I have a desire to build a system of teaching these quadruple elements without the risk of serious injury. But at such a cost, I see no reason to undertake this. And they say to me: "Show first that you can perform quadruples safely, and then, perhaps, we will increase the cost." A vicious circle turns out. So in this direction, we are unlikely to move forward in the near future, ”said Klimov.

 

[Lota]

I'm very torn on the topic. I think that, if the skaters DO successfully perform a quad element, the mark should be high... but I don't really want quads in pairs. Having lived through the... not sure about the years completely, but around the 2013-2017 era, when the pairs were sure that the ticket to a win was having a quad, I have seen WAY too many falls or very very dodgy landings. And it takes so much energy out of the skaters that other elements suffer as well. Frankly, a lot of the time it made watching the Pairs discipline frightening rather than exciting (at least for me), so I'd rather watch the skaters improve on the elements that they do have. Still, if there are pairs capable of properly performing quads, they should be marked according well. So, what I'm saying is... I don't have a solution I'd just rather not be scared, because when pairs fall in quads... it usually looks much worse than when Men or Ladies do that.

 

[4everchan]

raise the BV for quads to where it was... if they don't want to encourage them too much, give a minus 1.5 deduction (or even -2) for a fall instead of a minus 1. Then, only teams who are very confident/safe will do them in competition.

Also, they should reward SBS jumps differently than in singles... going by rarity of jumps performed... raise the BV of SBS 3F and 3Lutz by 1 point or so... and 3 Loop by .5 So sick of seeing triple toes... it's been about 30 years of SBS triple toes

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

If a pair wishes to do a throw quad, it will be for the challenge/distinction of achieving it, not for the purpose of actually gaining any discernable competitive advantage because quads are pitifully undervalued compared to a triple throw and this is magnified when you compare it to the difference between triples vs quads in singles.

While I recognize the danger in quad twists, I think quad twists are far easier to do "cleanly" because the man can catch the woman and stabilize her for a "clean" exit, whereas in a throw, the woman needs to control the landing and execute that cleanly on her own without any assistance.

 

[skylark]

lot of the time it made watching the Pairs discipline frightening rather than exciting (at least for me), so I'd rather watch the skaters improve on the elements that they do have. Still, if there are pairs capable of properly performing quads, they should be marked according well. So, what I'm saying is... I don't have a solution I'd just rather not be scared, because when pairs fall in quads... it usually looks much worse than when Men or Ladies do that.

Actually, you do have a solution, just what you said ... for the skaters to improve on the elements that they do have.

As we saw at Worlds, only one of the top four pairs couples in the free skate final were able to complete their elements at the highest level of performance, so there's plenty of room for improvement during competition. Then you add in the task of combining all the difficult elements with excellent interpretation, choreography, performance, and transitions. (those are things Savchenko/Massot said they especially worked on before Pyongchang.) Other couples skating earlier in this event did skate clean ... and they also have things to improve and ways to advance.

There's really no lack of opportunity for excellence and improvement in the pairs discipline as it stands, providing one counts such things as intricacy, complexity, and transitions. These require technical prowess as much as rotations do. If you add things like musicality, connection, and emotion, then the there's no limit to what pairs can give to audiences.

 

[4everchan]

Actually, you do have a solution, just what you said ... for the skaters to improve on the elements that they do have.

As we saw at Worlds, only one of the top four pairs couples in the free skate final were able to complete their elements at the highest level of performance, so there's plenty of room for improvement during competition. Then you add in the task of combining all the difficult elements with excellent interpretation, choreography, performance, and transitions. (those are things Savchenko/Massot said they especially worked on before Pyongchang.) Other couples skating earlier in this event did skate clean ... and they also have things to improve and ways to advance.

There's really no lack of opportunity for excellence and improvement in the pairs discipline as it stands, providing one counts such things as intricacy, complexity, and transitions. These require technical prowess as much as rotations do. If you add things like musicality, connection, and emotion, then the there's no limit to what pairs can give to audiences.

three things
1) this was not the best pair event skated... the lack of competitions really hurt everyone this year. As a matter of fact, MTM who were 10th after the short managed to rise up the rankings until 6th place... and even on the podium, not everyone was clean. In general, I feel, especially in the SP that everyone on top does really well and only GOE can spread the pairs apart... The pairs have already mentioned that. To be in the top 5-6 pairs after the SP, it's all about quality. They are working on that big time... Again, to use MTM as an example... . At these recent worlds, they didn't have any major mistake but pretty much all their elements received lower GOE (they were stiff and not showing the usual quality they have)... and they ended up in 10th.... So refining and going for the highest levels and GOE and PCS is already in place under the current system. We just didn't see it in these championships as much as in others...

2) two of the top teams are very young. I do not call them juniors like some people do.. That's not my point... In pairs, we often see very mature teams, that's when they start bringing sport and beauty together. Think about Shen and Zhao, Massot and Savchenko or even Duhamel and Radford... They were all in their late 20s or 30s when they skated their best.

3) finally, i think that rewarding harder elements is a way to make the sport progress... It also gives a way to younger and less established teams an incentive to learn these tricks to make a statement. The raise in BV allows to compensate for the lack of perfect pair symbiosis for these teams. In the end, it gives a chance for all kinds of pairs to shine... the ones who are more focused on BV and the ones who milk out the GOE and PCS to the max. I believe that it makes the sport way more exciting that way. It also allows for new elements to be performed. Teams who try easier throws and jumps will compensate by including harder transitions in and out.. or working on the choreography as they will have to optimize their GOE and PCS. In all, the sport will improve altogether as teams who do not attempt the harder tricks have to skate better and better. Pairs was extremely boring for the longest time, with everyone doing the same elements forever... then a few teams brought some quads and harder SBS passes and it was fun... every team then had to exploit their own assets.... this is what made the sport grow and 2018 games so exciting.... 2022 will be a step back in that regards...

 

[skylark]

Pairs was extremely boring for the longest time, with everyone doing the same elements forever... then a few teams brought some quads and harder SBS passes and it was fun... every team then had to exploit their own assets.... this is what made the sport grow and 2018 games so exciting.... 2022 will be a step back in that regards...

That's where we disagree. And I also didn't think quads were what made the 2018 games exciting; it was Savchenko/Massot that made that pairs event most exciting, with the gorgeous transcendence of their FS. There was also the fact that Tarasova/Morozov made mistakes, as did Sui/Han, although lesser one(s). At that level, with such technical difficulty, there just aren't guarantees that nerves won't play a part, so there's plenty of suspense.

 

[4everchan]

That's where we disagree. And I also didn't think quads were what made the 2018 games exciting; it was Savchenko/Massot that made that pairs event most exciting, with the gorgeous transcendence of their FS. There was also the fact that Tarasova/Morozov made mistakes, as did Sui/Han, although lesser one(s). At that level, with such technical difficulty, there just aren't guarantees that nerves won't play a part, so there's plenty of suspense.

to me it was the build up to the games that made it exciting as both savchenko massot and duhamel radford were pushing with the 3axel throws, the quad salchow throw (which was also done in the previous years by james and cipres, and if i recall sui and han as well)... the quad twist was there too...it was exciting to see the strategy teams would use to win the event... savchenko massot decided to focus on quality and their LP was indeed special in that sense and they won it... D/R chose the difficulty and came in 2nd in the LP. If they hadn't had a mistake on their lutz in the SP, they may have been silver overall. Sui Han and T/M chose less risky programs but did not deliver to their best.... my perception is very different from yours. But that's OKAY.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I think Duhamel/Radford should have won the LP at the Olympics. Beautiful program and that Quad made it glorious. Savchenko/Massot were great, but their program didn't always have emotion or musical timing; definitely lots of highlights and executed very clean, but technically they should have scored behind D/R, and on PCS it shouldn't have been much of a difference. The judges were holding D/R down, and while I believe it should be close either way (perhaps S/M can edge ahead overall just barely, because of having a better SP), it's really sad how D/R showed the ability to consistently and safely do this extra jump difficulty, but then the scoring system after 2018 goes and completely disregards their accomplishments even further.

 

[TontoK]

I shared this video on the US Pairs thread. This is Audrey and Misha, the 4th place American pair, working on a throw 4Lp.

It's in harness, so early days, but I think it could be a pretty element.

https://www.instagram.com/olgalexcoaching/?hl=en

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Thanks for sharing @TontoK. I came here to find out if it had been mentioned here about Audrey & Misha working on a quad throw, with gorgeous success in the harness. Probably they have a way to go before they will feel safe and have it consistent and comfortable enough to try in competition. Audrey has lovely line and extension, so she always looks beautiful in the air. Therefore, if they get this element consistently, they should get high GOE for the gorgeous execution. One thing about quads though is how fast they go that it's sometimes hard to notice the extra revolution, unless a skater has the suspended-in-the-air quality on quads a la Javier Fernandez and Yuzuru Hanyu. The extra revolution in a quad twist tends to be more visible, but great height is needed! Some pairs teams don't even get enough height for a twist to complete 3 full revolutions with easy catch and set down, sans crashing into or brushing against the male partner on the dismount.

As the article indicates, though, unless the sport's handlers decide to give more credit to quad elements in pairs skating, for many teams, the risk is not worth the reward. One of the last teams to attempt quad throws aside from D/R and S/H, was James/Cipres. For J/C, the quad throw in 2016-2017 season was one of the things that got them noticed more and talked about with greater interest and buzz. Vanessa mostly managed to stand up on the quad throw, but she always landed it two-footed. Similar to how Aljona Savchenko often attempted the 3-axel with both Robin S and later with Bruno Massot, but she had difficulty landing it cleanly. Sav/Mas also had a huge 3-twist, that with extra work seemed high enough to be a quad twist.

However, the way Alexa Knierim (in the article) describes the dangers and torque involved in the quad twist, it doesn't appear to be as easy as it seems when they executed it, even with the great height Chris always gave her. After Alexa's illness, it could be they decided to stop going for it after the 2018 Olympics because of the torque involved, which is absorbed by the pairs girl's body.

It's interesting that Tamara Moskvina feels quad elements are not worth the risk. I think that has been the prevailing attitude. So perhaps if more brave pairs teams attempt to safely train quad throws and quad twists and become successful enough in competition, then the sport's honchos might revisit and reconsider the points margins for quad elements in pairs. This remains to be seen. I personally think that right now it's important for most teams to refine and master the difficulty of the elements that already exist. I think some precautions and common sense should be put to use regarding awkward-looking lift positions and dismounts. The more creative and aesthetically pleasing positions and dismounts are welcome. Hopefully, there might eventually exist a balance with quad elements. Right now, I think it seems more important for the majority of the pairs field to improve their triple twists, along with height, distance and position on throws and throw landings. This, in addition to fine-tuning skating skills and finding better unison and synergy in skating 'two-as-one.'