Pre-rotation

[blackey]

I've been seeing so many people talking about this lately, so I guess it deserves it's own thread.
Personally, I didn't realize this as a big problem until very recently, it's seems many new generation skaters have this problem.

What really brings me to take this problem seriously is Uno's 4f. As I know, one of the difficulty of quad jump, especially for those ones that nobody ever officially land before this season, is the jumping height. The skaters need enough height in the air to gain time for their rotations. However, as the way Uno did his 4f in TCC FP, he seems only did less than 3.5 rotation in air, and that unbelievably low height which is even lower that his own 4t. It made me think, if pre-rotation is the reason that he can be the first one who land the jump? And compare to the way Jin does his 4lz with that height, it's just make me curious about if it's fair.

Just want to hear what's other people's thought about this.

 

[vlaurend]

Any jump takeoff, when watched in slow-motion, will look pre-rotated. Look at a video of any loop jump in slow motion and you'll see what I mean. That's why the technical panel is not allowed to review jump takeoffs in slow-motion, only jump landings. Toe loop takeoffs are the only ones that are regularly examined for pre-rotation, since this is the takeoff that is most commonly cheated and technically becomes an axel if the picking foot pivots forward on the toe before takeoff.

 

[chloepoco]

Another thread created to bash certain skaters......

 

[annesigin]

Miyahara and Uno...
cannot bear their jumps

 

[ioanna]

Here we go again...

 

[blackey]

Any jump takeoff, when watched in slow-motion, will look pre-rotated. Look at a video of any loop jump in slow motion and you'll see what I mean. That's why the technical panel is not allowed to review jump takeoffs in slow-motion, only jump landings. Toe loop takeoffs are the only ones that are regularly examined for pre-rotation, since this is the takeoff that is most commonly cheated and technically becomes an axel if the picking foot pivots forward on the toe before takeoff.

I see your point. But some of the huge pre-rotation just make the jump looks different with what it should be..

 

[ioanna]

Well here is Jackie Wong's opinion on pre-rotations if it counts or helps with anything. I asked the questions myself.

Q: Some people have said Shoma's quad flip was prerotated. What do you think?
A: Everyone's jumps are "prerotated." That's just how figure skating jumping works.

Q: How about Satoko Miyahara's prerotations?
A: It's about when/how you tap in. Tapping forward on flip or lutz is basically impossible. There is a difference between natural prerotation and poor technique prerotation (like a toe-axel). Uno and Miyahara are the former.

Q: Should toe-axels be considered incomplete jumps just like underrotations are?
A: It's really a gray area. Unless they can show that you turned forward before you tap in, tough to call. There is also a difference between tapping in and having your toe rotate (which everyone does) and tapping in already forward.

 

[Marin]

The more he lands jumps that way, the sooner his back and his hip and his knee are at risk., I am mad that ISU is awarding wrong technique that much.. someone should point out that this might end badly, I don't think Yamada&Higuchi team are managing Uno wisely. Satoko's case is different, she is fixing her prerotations, I put some of her jumps on slow mo, she is improving, not that she will become huge jumper one day, but she is improving both, height and rotations. Also her jumps aren't forced and scary. Uno was off axis in the air. Then to force a landing his knee would take an awful lot of stress. Imagine if it happens regularly, that would be a serious risk ....I think ISU should punish it, don't motivate wrong technique, honestly I dont see other way

 

[Meoima]

My take is that I need Mishin to throw in some words about his ideal jumping technique, not Jackie Wong.

 

[Lys]

Any jump takeoff, when watched in slow-motion, will look pre-rotated.

I honestly don't understand this take: some pre-rotation is normal and just in the mechanic of jumping. But there's a difference between a pre-rotation around 90°, one around 180° and one around 270°. To say "any jump take off will look pre-rotated" is like to say "any jump landing will look under-rotated" and put less than 90°, less than 180° and more than 180° lack of rotation on landing all together...
And even if all jumps were pre-rotated, all jumps should be penalized for being so, imo.

That said, I think isu should allow slow-mo on take off to mark pre-rotation as they do with under-rotation (actually, I think they should start thinking about implementing some more sound technology to track pre and under rotation and edge, so not to have panels calling the most different things competition by competition, but that's another matter).
But till they don't, judges can give -goe for "poor take off", but it's all up to their judgement, so...

 

[ioanna]

I agree with Marin, if you're willing to see the improvements Satoko is trying to make, you can see them. The problem is that people don't bother to see them. I also put her jumps in slow motion and have been observing the slight changes over the months/years. She also makes her jumps look effortless and has good flow in and out. Shoma is a completely different case.

 

[Meoima]

Well if ISU still want to count heavily pre-rotated jumps as fully rotated, we can do nothing. But I hope they at least make some clear cases so judges are required to give negative GOE for those take off.

 

[ioanna]

My take is that I need Mishin to throw in some words about his ideal jumping technique, not Jackie Wong.

Well in that case he may also be able to explain what happened to Tuktamysheva's jumps this season.

 

[Lys]

I agree with Marin, if you're willing to see the improvements Satoko is trying to make, you can see them. The problem is that people don't bother to see them. I also put her jumps in slow motion and have been observing the slight changes over the months/years. She also makes her jumps look effortless and has good flow in and out. Shoma is a completely different case.

I think people like to see what they want to see (and I agree with you both about Satoko)

But imo we can talk about pre-rotation (or other technical issue) and how to improve judgement on that ignoring those who just use that to diss a skater

 

[skatefan22]

Some people say Javier's jumps are also quite pre-rotated. Has anyone looked his jumps take-off?

 

[blackey]

I honestly don't understand this take: some pre-rotation is normal and just in the mechanic of jumping. But there's a difference between a pre-rotation around 90°, one around 180° and one around 270°. To say "any jump take off will look pre-rotated" is like to say "any jump landing will look under-rotated" and put less than 90°, less than 180° and more than 180° lack of rotation on landing all together...
And even if all jumps were pre-rotated, all jumps should be penalized for being so, imo.

That said, I think isu should allow slow-mo on take off to mark pre-rotation as they do with under-rotation (actually, I think they should start thinking about implementing some more sound technology to track pre and under rotation and edge, so not to have panels calling the most different things competition by competition, but that's another matter).
But till they don't, judges can give -goe for "poor take off", but it's all up to their judgement, so...

That's exactly what I am saying. I understand there is technique difference or whatever, but there should be a standard. Some of the pre-rotation just seems ridiculous.

 

[Meoima]

Well in that case he may also be able to explain what happened to Tuktamysheva's jumps this season.

Oh don't worry, even at her worst she never pre-rotate 3/4 revolution on ice.

- - - Updated - - -

Some people say Javier's jumps are also quite pre-rotated. Has anyone looked his jumps take-off?

His quads are fine. But his triples especially the lutz is another story. If you care to look at the slow motion, Javi's lutz is ridiculously wrong.

 

[koatcue]

Nowadays the skaters that don't prerotate are so rare..

 

[ioanna]

Oh don't worry, even at her worst she never pre-rotate 3/4 revolution on ice.

That wasn't the point but ok

 

[mrrice]

I have been around for what seems like forever but, I still can't think of a skater who pre-rotated enough to bother me.