I agree, but the casual viewer doesn't recognize the difference, the speeds skaters only have one edge, and therefore it isn't rewarded as much as it should be. Spin to win! But in the end the audience has to agree with the result. And they still get excited when they see a skater like Tuktamysheva in top form. So I think that good technique is still rewarded. I'm one of those who kind of agree with Miyahara's PCS, because after all it would be ridiculous if the judges would think she's a complete skater with those interesting toe jumps (and I don't like that weird change of edge thing she does between jumps in combos).
Pre-rotation
- Thread starter blackey
- Start date
sorry but this is ***
Casual viewer who doesn't know a thing about the sport should be smart enough to keep his mouth shut and audience should be taught on how to recognize what judges are looking at and to recognize all different things about figure skating. Then, if they bother learning it good, if they don't bother they should be smart enough to know they don't know and keep their mouth shut again.
Otherwise if casual viewer and audience are the real judges, just let's implement fully the scoring app isu put up this year and let score all competitions through that one.
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- Mar 15, 2015
I think, besides Axel and Lutz, most skaters pre-rotate the other jumps almost 180 degree. Ranging from 135-180 degree.
You don't need to be an expert to understand the results, you just need to learn what the sport is and its rules (and honestly figure skating is not nuclear science...)
Every sport has its rules, why figure skating should just follow what audience wants? And especially what casual viewer wants? I don't follow gymnastic, should gymnastic scoring be tailored on me watching a competition and making up my own rules? Maybe without even bothering to listen to some commentary or whatever?
You can say "let's make rules easier" and that's one thing. But "let's make rules that can please those who don't know a thing about what they are watching but at least casual viewers are all happy" is all another matter.
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Another Pandora's thread opened
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That's because all jumps ARE pre-rotated, except for the Lutz and Flip if you toepick totally straight back, which is not advised.
It's sad talking about this year after year after year and nothing being done by ISU to address the issue, but I'll just post again what I always say:
The official determination of jump rotation should be that all jumps are allowed 1/2 (.5) of a turn on the takeoff as pre-rotation, as this is a normal mechanic. Any amount more than that needs to be deducted from the landing, where 1/4 (.25) of a turn is the normal allowable amount. So if someone pre-rotates 3/4 (.75) of a turn on the takeoff, that means they need to land perfectly backwards in order for the jump to fully count.
Then, at the same time, if someone pre-rotates less than the normal 1/2 of a turn amount, this must also be taken into consideration and more leeway given on the landing point. If someone only pre-rotates 1/4 (.25) of a turn on the takeoff, then they should be allowed 3/8 (.375) of a turn on the landing point.
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If there's one thing a good coach can do for their students, it would be to explain the rules as soon as they're old enough to start competing. It can be quite easy to make the crowd scream for you. In Jazz Dance, if I wanted a crowd reaction I'd throw in a Rockette style kick line followed by a jump split ripple and the crowd would go wild. Judges however, realize that these are simple "tricks" and don't require anything other than a bit of flexibility.
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You only quoted a part of my original post. Because I also wrote that good technique is recognized and rewarded, because the audience and the judges are impressed.
And you totally underestimate the sense of the casual fan. I don't know much about gymnastics for example, but I recognize when a performance is truly great when I watch the last group at the Olympics or at Worlds. And the numbers that come up usually agree with the impression I had. A couple of years ago the old judging system also let Surya Bonaly win a couple of medals. I'm glad that she never became world champion, but she was entertaining and she was an athlete and the audience would have gone wild if she wouldn't have won a bunch of medals.
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Well if you look at the best jumpers who have the best quality... They don't have much pre rotation at all.
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It's unfair not to penalise it. I was never Yuna Kim's biggest fan but let's give credit where due and call a spade a spade. She never cheats (wittingly or unwittingly). Medvedeva, slow mo, leaves the ice after rotating .5 on the ice; thus, rotating only 2.5 in the air in her 3toe combo. No wonder she hardly misses. Gold...more likely to miss combo because she does the correct, harder, completely rotated 3toe in her combos.
Others on my list of "should be penalised" (again, my opinion, feel free to disagree)
1. Miyahara (basically all jumps)
2. Sotnikova (toe axel)
3. Tsurskaya (toe axel)
4. Aliev (toe axel)
5. Medvedeva (better hidden toe axel--coz both feet are on the ground long enough to disguise the toe axel)
6. Meissner and Buttle as classic examples of toe axling (Lol they're here and the "axing" word)
Others on my list of "should be penalised" (again, my opinion, feel free to disagree)
1. Miyahara (basically all jumps)
2. Sotnikova (toe axel)
3. Tsurskaya (toe axel)
4. Aliev (toe axel)
5. Medvedeva (better hidden toe axel--coz both feet are on the ground long enough to disguise the toe axel)
6. Meissner and Buttle as classic examples of toe axling (Lol they're here and the "axing" word)
Tsurskaya.....which means Polina Tsurskaya? The JGPF gold medalist I know?
She pre-rotates? She delays her rotation so she has a long period of time leaving the ice. She rotates when her feet has been far from the ice because her toe loop has a huge height. If all ladies will be penalisesd for pro-rotate, Tsurskaya would not. I wonder if we are talking about the same skater.
She pre-rotates? She delays her rotation so she has a long period of time leaving the ice. She rotates when her feet has been far from the ice because her toe loop has a huge height. If all ladies will be penalisesd for pro-rotate, Tsurskaya would not. I wonder if we are talking about the same skater.
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Yes. THE wonderful Tsurskaya...gorgeous jumps of course....except the back end of her combo--the 3toe...
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Yes ... Tsurskaya has really good jumps. I don't see any "cheating" here or what's even more ridiculous - toe-axeling. On the other hand the other top Russian junior lady Seraphima Sakhanovich turns her pick jumps into toe-axels / borderline toe-axels. It's striking and something that you see live, you don't need to be an expert to notice that there's something odd. Otherwise I enjoy her skating as she's a good performer.
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Oh thanks! forgot to include that in my list! Sima! hahahaha! But yeah I'm sad she's struggling lately...she is one of the better performers
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Don't forget to include Wagner in your list.
I just quoted the part I didn't agree with
Of course casual viewers too can get an idea of how a performance is (recognizing bad from so and so to good). And of course NOT all audience is composed by casual viewers. But I still don't see why casual viewers or audience should get a say on how to judge if they don't know what rules are or if they do but don't know how to look for technical details.
If the problem is to let casual viewers and audience *understand* the technical rules and the judging on it, doing teaching works (starting from commentators who usually are the first "voices" casual viewers listen) about it is the way to go, imo. That way you also kill two birds with one stone: you have more people who have (if they care enough) a better understanding of what figure skating entails and you push skaters to improve (what's the point into going for proper technique if it's not awarded otherwise?)
