Pre-rotation
- Thread starter blackey
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I realize PCS is meant to be separate, but like another poster said earlier this season, Satoko is breaking the system with her jumps. They are tiny, the technique is bad, the rotation is questionable... but she is very consistent with them. Current GOE guidelines don't allow the judges to penalize the jumps enough, especially when everything else about her skating ticks box after box, so she is still ending up with positive GOE on jumps and high technical scores, and the judges ding her on PCS instead/additionally.
Judges hold down skaters in PCS when they feel like their jump content is second rate, i.e. Kori Ade being told by judges that they wouldn't give Jason Brown the PCS she felt he deserved until he had the 3A. A lot of people think it's totally fair for a male skater without a quad to be held down in PCS. It seems like that is what is going on with Satoko's PCS. The judges don't want to reward the tiny consistent jumps anymore than they want to reward someone who is consistent without difficult jumps, so they are holding her back. I would rather they increase the possible GOE deduction or create a mandatory score of 0 for a jump that has no height and score the PCS correctly the way they tried to fix conservative approaches to jump content by reducing the deductions for falling on one.
Judges hold down skaters in PCS when they feel like their jump content is second rate, i.e. Kori Ade being told by judges that they wouldn't give Jason Brown the PCS she felt he deserved until he had the 3A. A lot of people think it's totally fair for a male skater without a quad to be held down in PCS. It seems like that is what is going on with Satoko's PCS. The judges don't want to reward the tiny consistent jumps anymore than they want to reward someone who is consistent without difficult jumps, so they are holding her back. I would rather they increase the possible GOE deduction or create a mandatory score of 0 for a jump that has no height and score the PCS correctly the way they tried to fix conservative approaches to jump content by reducing the deductions for falling on one.
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2014
That's because every prerotation thread or conversation ends up with people pointing out how Satoko's triples look like half loops and other people posting whatever goes through their minds (including complete fabrication and lack of respect), conveniently disregarding her hard work and other qualities.
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2008
I see your point. But some of the huge pre-rotation just make the jump looks different with what it should be..
I don't see the pre-rotation you're talking about on Uno's 4F. Neither did the technical specialists.
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2008
I don't know either, but since this seems to be a guessing game now
Am I close?
Yes, when a skater sticks his toe into the ice for a toe loop takeoff but pivots on the toe so that he's actually facing forward for the takeoff, it's technically an axel that takes off from the toe (a.k.a. "toe axel"). In the case of a single toe loop where the skater pivots on the toe and takes off forward, it's a toe waltz jump.
I think a lot of these debates are comparing the handful of exceptional jumpers vs. triple jumpers whose technique is just adequate but consistent enough, combined with good non-jump skills, to contend for high placements.
I don't see a lot of skaters outside top 10 in the world being used as examples here.
I think it's safe to say that any skater who reaches that level of accomplishment has better technique than the vast majority of skaters. For those who are not the very best of the all-time very best, we can note their relative deficiencies, but it's best to keep them in perspective of the field as a whole.
I don't see a lot of skaters outside top 10 in the world being used as examples here.
I think it's safe to say that any skater who reaches that level of accomplishment has better technique than the vast majority of skaters. For those who are not the very best of the all-time very best, we can note their relative deficiencies, but it's best to keep them in perspective of the field as a whole.
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- Dec 29, 2013
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I've been looking at this and started fooling around with editing it and there are so many amazing qualities to that 4f! I would ratify it for certain. Stay tuned
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- Dec 29, 2013
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Here is a video I made showing the guys and their amount of PR on some different jumps. People seem to always ask about the guys and it seems most of the attention on this stuff is on the ladies.
PreRotation Jumpamatron (Men)
https://youtu.be/MwIOHY_kM4I
Available up to 720p HD
PreRotation Jumpamatron (Men)
https://youtu.be/MwIOHY_kM4I
Available up to 720p HD
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- Dec 25, 2012
All the jumps shown in this video seemed ok to me as far as take off is concerned.
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- Dec 29, 2013
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I agree!
Also it sounds like she says "Hanyu" on the song I chose
I'm not sure why Scott says it's a quad toe for Shoma? I think the slow motion video got behind and he was talking about the next replay or something. My bad.
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Do some skaters pre-rotate their jumps more than others due to the lack of height in their jumps? If they have more leg power and can jump higher, would they naturally pre-rotate less? I don't think anyone "cheat" on purpose or coaches teach cheating techniques on purpose. But if they don't have enough leg muscle and cannot jump high, they probably will just naturally jump with more pre-rotation.
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- Joined
- Feb 25, 2014
Well that video showed that pre-rotation is at least somewhat related to technique:
Hanyu: purest technique = little pre-rotation
Shoma: ...iffy technique = a lot
Most have a lot in that video other than Hanyu. Kolyada, the Jason in that combo! Do Javi, Patrick, and Boyang sometime too, please!
Hanyu: purest technique = little pre-rotation
Shoma: ...iffy technique = a lot
Most have a lot in that video other than Hanyu. Kolyada, the Jason in that combo! Do Javi, Patrick, and Boyang sometime too, please!
Mr Uno takes off at 250 - 270 degree pre rotation. And the jump Mr. Uno landed in the video is even badly UR.
Other men mostly take off at 180 degree pre-rotation. Mr. Aaron maybe take off at over 180 degree a bit.
Mr. Hanyu takes off at around 70 degree up to 100 depends on the jump, quite less than other men. And if you look at Mr Hanyu's lutz and flip, he hardly has any pre rotation.
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- Sep 22, 2010
One of the reasons exceptional jumpers can have little pre-rotation is because they jump high enough to delay the first rotation. For other skaters who just don't get the same height or lift (Miyahara), they don't have much of a choice if they want to land backwards and not get UR or downgrade. Bad technique is one of the reasons for excessive pre-rotation, but I wonder how much a skater's own physique limits how high they can get from a jump.
I'm pretty sure there's a very strong correlation between pre-rotation and jump height. It seems coaches and trainers ought to teach skaters to get some height on their jumps before adding more revolutions.
I'm pretty sure there's a very strong correlation between pre-rotation and jump height. It seems coaches and trainers ought to teach skaters to get some height on their jumps before adding more revolutions.
I think a skater's physique is limiting how high he/she can jump. What can the skater do if he/she really can't jump high even after training to get more muscle? Most skaters who jump high are natural jumpers who have super spring in their legs. Those are the very few. Many girls especially lack power in their legs. So I think that's why girls also pre-rotate more than guys.
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- Mar 24, 2015
I don't get the Miyahara "sizeist" claims. There are plenty of junior skaters of similar stature that have much larger jumps. Karen Chen springs to mind---pun intended. If you skate fast and have strong legs you could be able to jump big. Skaters are carrying their own weight afterall. Having a smaller physique can be considered an advantage in some ways.
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- Sep 22, 2010
Some of the shortest female skaters had the biggest jumps--Tonya Harding and Midori Ito in particular. But those two are clearly not the same build as Miyahara.
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- Mar 23, 2014
Thanks for this! Really interesting. Satoko has obviously fixed her URs (most of the time) and she does get more height on her jumps than she did in 2012. It looks like her jumps have about the same amount of prerotation they did in 2012, to my untrained eye. I don't think she prerotates more than she did as a junior.
Ah, but physique (body type) doesn't necessarily mean leg power / jumping ability. I am sure that the skaters with the biggest jumps would do very well on vertical jump height from a stand still (ski jumping or basketball measure this for example). So skaters with lesser physical gifts look for ways to compensate, in accordance with the current rule book, and/or develop their other strengths more in order to be able compete.
