Re-litigating Lillehammer

[GGFan]

I'm sure most assumed this was an Oksana v. Nancy thread but it is not!

Rather, this is about that bigger controversy (at least in the Canadian mind): Tonya vs. Josée.

The Canadian narrative we've been fed is that Tonya's boot problems forced Josée to go early, thus ruining her performance and chances.

The American retort is that Josée was always a head case and that as an experienced competitor she should have been able to handle the time change.

I want to add new evidence to the North American dispute: in watching clips from 1991 Worlds I found CBC fluff on Josée (Paul Martini was looking handsome as ever). Apparently at 1990 Canadian Nationals there was an unforeseen timing delay and it totally threw off Josee's performance. In the fluff piece she claimed that she'd learned from her experience and that she had calmed her nerves.

My questions for posters (especially Canadian ones):

1. Does the new evidence get Tonya off the hook? Josée had previous experience and should have known better. and/or

2. Does it further cement that it was indeed Tonya's fault? Josée had shown a propensity to be thrown off by timing and this did her in.

Note: this is meant to be a fun exercise.

 

[lyndichee]

Not sure how this is a fun exercise trying to determine someone's mindset 20+ years ago, especially trying to bring in national biases into it. Josee didn't deliver and Tonya had boot problems. I think much more fruitful figure skating discussion would be analyzing what actually happened on the ice (jumps, spins, scores etc.) than trying to use pedantics to push blame.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

It probably affected Josee negatively, but she was always a very inconsistent competitor. Part of being an Olympic-level athlete is being able to adjust to the circumstances to deliver your best. Oksana Baiul was hurt in a crash with another skater but still managed to deliver a solid effort in the LP.

 

[GGFan]

Not sure how this is a fun exercise trying to determine someone's mindset 20+ years ago, especially trying to bring in national biases into it. Josee didn't deliver and Tonya had boot problems. I think much more fruitful figure skating discussion would be analyzing what actually happened on the ice (jumps, spins, scores etc.) than trying to use pedantics to push blame.

I'm utterly confused and I guess this just goes to show that not even emoticons can convey tone online. Did you miss the winky tone of the entire thread??

Push blame?? I have no idea what either one of the skaters were thinking and even if they told me given how memory works, I'm not sure I would believe them. It was just a fun nostalgic exercise.

This discussion was never meant to be fruitful. That's a pretty high standard for figure skating discussions and would probably disqualify 90% of the threads on GS.

ETA: I hope that SarahSynchro comments at some point, since I had her in mind when I started the thread. I think she will understand the humor.

 

[chopinskate]

I blame the ISU. They're always the ones to blame.

 

[GGFan]

I blame the ISU. They're always the ones to blame.

Funny and also at least partly true. They could have just let Josee go on at her normal time. And tack on a couple minutes at the end for Tonya.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Just as a matter of principal...skaters should always be prepared to move up or be delayed due to injury, WD, or other unexpected complications.

 

[lesnar001]

I still don't know what to think.

On the one hand, I think it was unfair to Josee Chouinard. Even if she had a similar experience at 1990 Nationals, it is still very disrputing.
And at the Olympics too!
Add to that the whole Tonya "drama", and I still wonder if Tonya "created" the mishap in an attempt at sympathy.
We'll never know for sure but it just seemed a little to coincidental to me.

On the other hand, although a beautiful skater, Josee Chouinard always seemed to battle her nerves and may have had problems in her LP anyway.
It's just a shame it had to happen to this skater at that particular moment.

For some reason, my mind just flashed to a couple of other "poor sportsmanship" moments in that era.

I remember a skater that "disrespected" another skater at a warmup or practice session.
And that same skater also "disrespecting" yet another skater at a medal ceremony.
That will have to be a story for another day.

 

[gkelly]

They could have just let Josee go on at her normal time. And tack on a couple minutes at the end for Tonya.

At the time skaters had 2 minutes to take their starting positions after their names were called. (Now it's only 30 seconds!)

They also announced skaters who hadn't checked in but hadn't officially withdrawn either. After 2 minutes, the referee withdrew them. In most of those cases the other skaters on that warmup as well as the officials would likely be aware that the missing skater wasn't going to show up, but just in case, for example, someone had been stuck in traffic or otherwise delayed by travel and managed to arrive just in time to compete without skating the warmup, they weren't officially withdrawn until after that 2 minutes. So the next skater would probably have to figure there would be no performance and wait for scores for that skater but there would be the statutory 2-minute wait.

If the previous skater is present and does skate, there is still going to be variability in how long they take to get to their starting position, whether there are any interruptions during the performance for music or equipment issues (skaters' fault or organizers' fault or acts of god etc.) that cause the program and scoring to take longer than expected.

Or injuries or catastrophic equipment failures that forced the skater to stop during the performance, sometimes very early on. Sometimes a skater who had to stop midprogram was offered the opportunity to skate at the end of the group if they were able, sometimes it was obvious that there was no alternative but to withdraw, but either way the time from the skater taking the ice as originally scheduled to the next skater was called could be much shorter than if they'd skated the whole program and waited for scores.

And under 6.0 the scoring for the very first skater took extra time for the referee to share the median mark with the judges and allow them to adjust their scoring range, which added a variable amount of time before the second skater would be called.

So knowing that each skater can expect to be called approximately, say, 7 minutes after the previous one is just an approximation and wouldn't be anything to rely on to the minute.

For Harding at Lillehammer, she took the full 2 minutes to try to fix her lace before starting the program, skated the very beginning of the program, then consulted with the referee where it was determined she could start again at the end of the group. The longer time to take the ice plus the consultation with the referee added time that partly canceled out the time subtracted by the aborted first attempt at the program. So the total time from Harding first being announced to Chouinard being announced was not much less than what it would have been for a skater taking the ice immediately and skating her program as planned.

The atmosphere backstage as Harding tried to fix her lace during the 2-minute period and her emotion as she came off the ice after the first try may have been chaotic enough to cause stress to other skaters. That could have been more rattling than a difference of a minute or two from the anticipated start time of the next skater.

 

[Tonichelle]

There were a few Americans who were on the Canadian's side... Scott Hamilton being one of them. He was upfront in his book about the whole incident. Whether or not Josee was going to perform well had things gone okay, the whole boot incident was ridiculous. Just as Josee should have been prepared for the Tonya crap-show, Tonya should have been prepared for her boot problems. It wasn't a one time occurrence either.

 

[GGFan]

Thanks gkelly and Tonichelle. Without meaning to I learned new tidbits. I did not know the timing rules under 6.0 and I'd never read Scott's book so didn't realize he'd discussed the incident.

 

[Tonichelle]

Thanks gkelly and Tonichelle. Without meaning to I learned new tidbits. I did not know the timing rules under 6.0 and I'd never read Scott's book so didn't realize he'd discussed the incident.

Scott has a lot of bitterness surrounding all of 1994. The Tonya and Nancy scandal, CBS basically forcing a narrative of biased judging that placed Oskana ahead of Nancy, Nancy's complete change of attitude after the whack, Tonya's mess of an olympics. Most of this, IMO, stems from the fact that his father died that same night and so Scott was emotionally spent to start with, and then to top if off this farce of an event happened. It was an eye opening chapter in his book considering his on ice personal is a happy go lucky guy, but he's had a lot of major hits to his heart over the years. Things have definitely seemed to improve later in life.

 

[GGFan]

Scott has a lot of bitterness surrounding all of 1994. The Tonya and Nancy scandal, CBS basically forcing a narrative of biased judging that placed Oskana ahead of Nancy, Nancy's complete change of attitude after the whack, Tonya's mess of an olympics. Most of this, IMO, stems from the fact that his father died that same night and so Scott was emotionally spent to start with, and then to top if off this farce of an event happened. It was an eye opening chapter in his book considering his on ice personal is a happy go lucky guy, but he's had a lot of major hits to his heart over the years. Things have definitely seemed to improve later in life.

Had no clue about the timing of his father's death. This also make sense in light of an interview I saw where he describes how 1994 led to the crash of figure skating. Basically he argued that 1994 led to an intense bubble that was impossible to sustain for a niche sport.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I'll always be pro-Josee.

 

[Mathman]

They also announced skaters who hadn't checked in but hadn't officially withdrawn either. After 2 minutes, the referee withdrew them. In most of those cases the other skaters on that warmup as well as the officials would likely be aware that the missing skater wasn't going to show up, but just in case, for example, someone had been stuck in traffic or otherwise delayed by travel and managed to arrive just in time to compete without skating the warmup, they weren't officially withdrawn until after that 2 minutes.

Has that ever actually happened? It would make a great scene in a figure skating movie. She comes rushing in at 1:58 frantically struggling into her costume.

There was one time when Sonja Henie's father used his influence to have Sonja's rival arrested at the border in order to keep her out of the competition. And I remember the U.S. Olympic boxer whose team was not familiar with a 24-hour clock and misread 14:00 hours as four o'clock. The boxer hopped on the bus to the stadium around 2 PM and got there just seconds too late after he had been disqualified.

Not to mention the schemes that were hatched on the old fan-board Tara World to kidnap Michelle Kwan and lock her in a closet backstage.

About getting stuck in traffic, IIRC that actually happened to Kurt Browning once, not for a competition but for a scheduled appearance on the Today Show on NBC. Katie Couric never forgave him.

 

[Interspectator]

This thread is fascinating, and a look at the rules and conditions of Figure Skating during a time I wasn't a fan yet. -Keep it up guys!

 

[GGFan]

Not to mention the schemes that were hatched on the old fan-board Tara World to kidnap Michelle Kwan and lock her in a closet backstage.

And yet they managed the greater feat of brainwashing 6 judges to vote Tara first.

 

[gkelly]

Has that ever actually happened? It would make a great scene in a figure skating movie. She comes rushing in at 1:58 frantically struggling into her costume.

I'm not aware of any elite examples but I have seen it happen at local events.

 

[Tonichelle]

Had no clue about the timing of his father's death. This also make sense in light of an interview I saw where he describes how 1994 led to the crash of figure skating. Basically he argued that 1994 led to an intense bubble that was impossible to sustain for a niche sport.

He's not wrong. There was no way to sustain skating's popularity straight out of 1994, and it didn't help that they oversaturated the market. I mean Scott and company made out better than they ever would have otherwise, but it was a flash in the pan really. It also didn't help that really after their era skater's bodies don't have the staying power to tour for decades.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Has that ever actually happened? It would make a great scene in a figure skating movie. She comes rushing in at 1:58 frantically struggling into her costume.

It happened in this movie (the best figure skating movie ever, obvs)! And gotta love the Sasha Cohen cameo! https://youtu.be/DbSromtZy4U

Also, team Josee. The Olympics are pressure and even if athletes are trained that can throw you off - as much as skaters are pros they are also human. They could have waited a couple extra minutes and Josee would never have to wonder how she could have performed if she had gone through her normal routine prior to skating (which all skaters have). A skater having to go later because of a delay or interruption makes sense but a skater having to go earlier than they were told is not fair.