Re-litigating Lillehammer

[gkelly]

Imagine the following scenario:

Skater A has been quietly nursing an injury but plans to compete anyway. She skates the warmup, takes her place efficiently when called, and starts the program. However, within 30 seconds it becomes clear that she will not be able to make through the program. Tearfully, she approaches the referee and explains that she needs to withdraw. There might be some back and forth including about the possibility of resuming at the end of the group, but the whole exchange also takes well under a minute. The skater takes a regretful bow and leaves the ice. (If Skater A is Plushenko in Russia, this might take a few minutes. In most cases, not so much.)

Skater B is called, minutes before she expected to skate.

Is that unfair to Skater B?

 

[chopinskate]

(If Skater A is Plushenko in Russia, this might take a few minutes. In most cases, not so much.)

Is this shade? It might be the first time I've seen you be shady.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Imagine the following scenario:

Skater A has been quietly nursing an injury but plans to compete anyway. She skates the warmup, takes her place efficiently when called, and starts the program. However, within 30 seconds it becomes clear that she will not be able to make through the program. Tearfully, she approaches the referee and explains that she needs to withdraw. There might be some back and forth including about the possibility of resuming at the end of the group, but the whole exchange also takes well under a minute. The skater takes a regretful bow and leaves the ice. (If Skater A is Plushenko in Russia, this might take a few minutes. In most cases, not so much.)

Skater B is called, minutes before she expected to skate.

Is that unfair to Skater B?

Yes, absolutely unfair to Skater B. Skater B should be given the option to skate earlier, if they wish, but being compelled to is unfair. Skaters have a routine they go through and get into a comfort zone. Making them go earlier than expected is highly uncommon. There's no issue with waiting another 3-5 minutes and the skater competing when expected.

Plus, the extra time would offer the more discourteous spectators ample time to file out of the stadium once they realized Skater A had pulled out. :sarcasm:

 

[GGFan]

Yes, absolutely unfair to Skater B. Skater B should be given the option to skate earlier, if they wish, but being compelled to is unfair. Skaters have a routine they go through and get into a comfort zone. Making them go earlier than expected is highly uncommon. There's no issue with waiting another 3-5 minutes and the skater competing when expected.

Plus, the extra time would offer the more discourteous spectators ample time to file out of the stadium once they realized Skater A had pulled out. :sarcasm:

I would be really careful about using the concept of fairness. It can be difficult to define and to apply.

Often when we talk about fairness we're focused on procedural fairness. That is, were there rules everyone was aware of in advance and were those rules followed.

I completely agree that figure skaters have their routines and I do not like to see them disrupted. Yet, I wouldn't call it unfair. If everyone knows in advance that their time is not set in stone and could change without much notice then it's fair. Everyone is subject to the same conditions and anyone could be called to skate early.

It seems like you want fairness of outcome. That is, to the extent possible no one should be deprived of their routine. That's admirable but in sports we rarely provide that.

Sorry but I get really technical about the F word.

 

[LiamForeman]

If you play Tonya's first attempt and second attempt simultaneously, by the time Tonya is off the ice fixing her lace and Josee is seen coming out of those curtains, Tonya would have been in the final fast section and maybe 20 seconds from finishing if even that long. Wouldn't Josee have been coming out at that time anyway? She really wasn't rushed. Also, one only has to see her 1994 Worlds LP to get an idea of what her Olympic program would have been: multiple falls and more tears from Josee. Basically the same as her actual Olympic program.

But this little controversy helped Josee the Victim jump into the pro ranks with plum invitations, where she still fell all the time.

Tonya annoys me to no end, but she was given a bad rap on that incident.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

But this little controversy helped Josee the Victim jump into the pro ranks with plum invitations, where she still fell all the time.

I don't know if that's the case. She was a good performer, and really everyone was getting invited to pro events in the 1990s. Rory Flack had a reasonably successful pro career in the 1990s despite finishes of 12th and 15th at the two Nationals she competed in.

 

[Tonichelle]

I was fortunate to see Josee skate live once. She fell in her second program... but she wasn't the only one who landed butt first. Her programs were so much fun (skated to The Sweater and Prima Donna ) she was something special even if she was one of those that never reached their full potential. So many memorable programs (for me) once she hit the pro ranks. And she was cute to boot! I got my hair cut like her in the early 00s lol

She managed to beat Michelle Kwan at a pro-am one year... it was awesome.

 

[lesnar001]

I was fortunate to see Josee skate live once. She fell in her second program... but she wasn't the only one who landed butt first. Her programs were so much fun (skated to The Sweater and Prima Donna ) she was something special even if she was one of those that never reached their full potential. So many memorable programs (for me) once she hit the pro ranks. And she was cute to boot! I got my hair cut like her in the early 00s lol

She managed to beat Michelle Kwan at a pro-am one year... it was awesome.

Thanks for your memories of Josee.

I always enjoyed her skating.
I remember that she was a skater that you couldn't help but root for.

When did Josee beat Michelle Kwan - was it before or after Michelle's transformative 1995-96 season?

 

[Tonichelle]

Thanks for your memories of Josee.

I always enjoyed her skating.
I remember that she was a skater that you couldn't help but root for.

When did Josee beat Michelle Kwan - was it before or after Michelle's transformative 1995-96 season?

After, I believe. I want to say 2000? 2001?

 

[GGFan]

If you play Tonya's first attempt and second attempt simultaneously, by the time Tonya is off the ice fixing her lace and Josee is seen coming out of those curtains, Tonya would have been in the final fast section and maybe 20 seconds from finishing if even that long. Wouldn't Josee have been coming out at that time anyway? She really wasn't rushed. Also, one only has to see her 1994 Worlds LP to get an idea of what her Olympic program would have been: multiple falls and more tears from Josee. Basically the same as her actual Olympic program.

But this little controversy helped Josee the Victim jump into the pro ranks with plum invitations, where she still fell all the time.

Tonya annoys me to no end, but she was given a bad rap on that incident.

This take may be too hot for me but I love that you didn't hold back

My memories of Josee were more of a Joannie Rochette type skater, but one who never put it together. That is, someone who you knew could medal on any given night given her qualities.

 

[gkelly]

Thanks for your memories of Josee.

I always enjoyed her skating.
I remember that she was a skater that you couldn't help but root for.

When did Josee beat Michelle Kwan - was it before or after Michelle's transformative 1995-96 season?

At the pro-am, considerably after (see below).

But also before at 1994 Worlds.

And in the SP at the 1996 Champions Series Final, though Kwan came back from 4th place to win that event.

After, I believe. I want to say 2000? 2001?

I see it was the 2000 Canadian Open.

 

[vitamintea]

Imagine the following scenario:

Skater A has been quietly nursing an injury but plans to compete anyway. She skates the warmup, takes her place efficiently when called, and starts the program. However, within 30 seconds it becomes clear that she will not be able to make through the program. Tearfully, she approaches the referee and explains that she needs to withdraw. There might be some back and forth including about the possibility of resuming at the end of the group, but the whole exchange also takes well under a minute. The skater takes a regretful bow and leaves the ice. (If Skater A is Plushenko in Russia, this might take a few minutes. In most cases, not so much.)

Skater B is called, minutes before she expected to skate.

Is that unfair to Skater B?

I mean, why imagine? That happened at Skate America last year with Ashley Wagner withdrawing a minute into her free, and Serafima Sakhanovich being called to skate early. They just gave her an extra-long warmup. I think that's the most you could expect and they salvaged the situation to make it as fair to her as possible.

 

[Mista Ekko]

At the 2005 Worlds Totmianina\Marinin were called out early in the FS
after Shen\Zhao decided to withdraw before even starting,
On the line was the World title they were trying to defend,
And they were coming off a mentally taxing season (Horrific fall at SA)
They managed to go clean and defend their title, So it can be done.

 

[skateluvr]

If ever there was anoff season thread this would be it. Who cares?

 

[lesnar001]

I care.

'Nuf said.

 

[GGFan]

If ever there was anoff season thread this would be it. Who cares?

Thanks for taking time out to post It always boggles my mind that on a board with hundreds of threads, where no one forces participation, people still feel compelled to criticize topics of discussion :whack:

 

[gkelly]

Informative thread titles would help people to avoid topics they're not interested in.

 

[Skater Boy]

Funny and also at least partly true. They could have just let Josee go on at her normal time. And tack on a couple minutes at the end for Tonya.

Far too logical and reasonable to happen. You know i have been threatened so many times but that doesn't make it that much better though I guess I should be use to it. I do feel for Josee - yes she was a head case but she had some beautiful skates that if she skated cleanly back then both short and long she actually had the goods to win gold. She was very charming and when on her jumps were hmm like Liz Manley, Joannie Rochette and Kaetlyn Osmond - huge, powerful and well executed - goe positive! But yes she had consistency issues, mental issues; I don't want to blame Tonya but certainly there is a cause and effect result with what happened even for the most seasoned skater. Remember unlike some sports where all that matters is you get the puck in the net or whatever skating visually is judged so it is natural that such an incident might effect the performance.

 

[Skater Boy]

I am not sure why people are "picking" on Chouinard so much. I looked at youtube and while she was a basket case often she did have some amazing not just good performances. She is one of the few skaters who truly had an engaging personality on ice. And when on she had HUGE high quality jumps - it would put to shame Michelle Kwan and Satoko Miyahara. No matter how prepared anyone is and how experienced it is going to affect you changing what is your anticpated start time. Not an excuse but it is life - cause and effect for every push or pull there is naturally going to be a reaction or effect. Good or bad. I think if y ou look at her Nationals you can see why she was a medal threat. She even had some cute flourishes with her spins - which actually added to the difficulty. Compared to Kerrigan, Harding, Sawchenko and some of the other top skaters of the genre/time she had far more character and charm on the ice. And again, looking at some of the youtube performances and asking my mom she remembers that as a p ro she was even better - the Sweater, Moon River and others. Her personality really shone and her jumps were ironically like Liz Manley, Joannie Rochette and Kaetlyn Osmond glorious and huge when on.

 

[lesnar001]

She was certainly a world-class skater. I haven't watched youtube, but in my mind, I remember her as a beautiful skater - very ladylike.

I think like with Sasha Cohen, the viewer was always worried about a fall that would "break the mood".
But unlike Sasha Cohen, who could usually not let a mistake bother her that much, IIRC, once Josee made a mistake, it really seemed to deflate her confidence.

It made me sad when she was in tears after a rough performance.

She was definitely one of my favorites from that era.