Re-litigating Lillehammer

[skateluvr]

Jose was remembered for being very pretty. She had no ability to ccmpete. She was liked by Scott who cast her in Snowden on ice. If she didn’t get called to skate because of Tonya’s shoe lace I doubt anyone would remember her. Talking about Nancy vs Tonya or a Nancy vs Oksana has been relitigated a million times though use of a legal term was confusing.

Gkelly is right. The thread title is misleading. One opens the box and it is a nothingburger. I think people are bored with this season and many many people seemed to have left given the numbers watching the GP series. I think it is way worse than 2014-2015. After the last Olympics there was at least a lot of threads and debate about Yuna and Sotnikova. She was robbed her compatriots all felt. But at least people were here. It seems when Yuna retired most of S Korea left too.

Perhaps Eunsoo Lim will bring back those fans. I love her and think she is as good as Yuna but not a competitor. Yuna was a rare competitor. Anyway I thought this was about Nancy- who should have won. But we have had that discussion probably multiple times.

 

[GGFan]

Thank you for the suggestions, but I still think you're missing the point. :hpull: The seriousness of the title is supposed contrast with the with the lack of seriousness of the thread.

See my first post:

Re-litigating Lillehammer
I'm sure most assumed this was an Oksana v. Nancy thread but it is not!

Rather, this is about that bigger controversy (at least in the Canadian mind): Tonya vs. Josée.

The tone from the get go is tongue in cheek. It takes a second to click out of a thread but several minutes to post several times to complain about said thread. You're even commenting on the substance of the thread. The whole point was that instead of having some serious war about Oksana v. Nancy we were going to discuss a smaller circumstance/incident. In the course of that I learned some things and some interesting points about competitors came out.

Some did not get my point of view, which is fine but critiquing it for not being about serious matters is laughable on a figure skating board. We discuss all kinds of frivolous things and the whole point is that folks can discuss the things they are interested in discussing within limits.

I discuss and write about very serious things at work all the time, so I do not need lectures on what discussions I should be engaging in during my free time.

 

[Tonichelle]

Thank you for the suggestions, but I still think you're missing the point. :hpull: The seriousness of the title is supposed contrast with the with the lack of seriousness of the thread.

See my first post:



The tone from the get go is tongue in cheek. It takes a second to click out of a thread but several minutes to post several times to complain about said thread. You're even commenting on the substance of the thread. The whole point was that instead of having some serious war about Oksana v. Nancy we were going to discuss a smaller circumstance/incident. In the course of that I learned some things and some interesting points about competitors came out.

Some did not get my point of view, which is fine but critiquing it for not being about serious matters is laughable on a figure skating board. We discuss all kinds of frivolous things and the whole point is that folks can discuss the things they are interested in discussing within limits.

I discuss and write about very serious things at work all the time, so I do not need lectures on what discussions I should be engaging in during my free time.

I enjoyed the discussion considering it is normally lost in the usual discussion surrounding the ladies 94 Olympic competition.

 

[CellarDweller]

Not to get serious on the topic (but some have already) but the topic made me curious, so I turned to YouTube.

At competitions a skater is called, they skate around for a moment, do a 4 minute program, leave the ice, get their scores. The next skater takes the ice. At the most, that's about 6 - 7 minutes, correct?

At the Olympics, Tonya was called, and didn't come to the ice. Clock starts at 0:00. She's in the back getting her lace tied. Tonya is given a two minute warning, which she almost uses up. She takes the ice. Skates about, messes up her lutz, starts to cry and goes to the judges/referee. Famous skate-up-on-the-boards moment happens, she pleads her case, she's told she can leave the ice, and she does. After a few moments, the announcement to the audience about what is happening, and the call is made for Josée to take the ice.

When Josée is called, the clock now reads 6:47, so 6 minutes and 47 seconds have passed since Tonya was first called, and Josée was called. It's pretty much the same amount of time that Josée would've gotten if Tonya had skated her whole program. In the end, I don't think Josée got called any earlier than she would've under normal circumstances.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I would be really careful about using the concept of fairness. It can be difficult to define and to apply.

Often when we talk about fairness we're focused on procedural fairness. That is, were there rules everyone was aware of in advance and were those rules followed.

I completely agree that figure skaters have their routines and I do not like to see them disrupted. Yet, I wouldn't call it unfair. If everyone knows in advance that their time is not set in stone and could change without much notice then it's fair. Everyone is subject to the same conditions and anyone could be called to skate early.

It seems like you want fairness of outcome. That is, to the extent possible no one should be deprived of their routine. That's admirable but in sports we rarely provide that.

Sorry but I get really technical about the F word.

I think people often tend to conflate "within the rules" as being fair. With Josee it was a once in a million competitions that happens, and it happened to be on the world's biggest stage. While it might have been within the rules for Josee to have to skate immediately after Tonya's delay, it isn't necessarily fair.

As you said, nobody should be deprived of their routine. And to make a skater go out and skate earlier than they have prepared for is absolutely unfair, IMO.

IMO, it's also unfair that Tonya was able to have another go, without any particular deduction. I know the laces weren't her fault, but how many skaters would have loved to have a mulligan and re-do their program (with no penalty, AFAIK) after messing up their first jumping pass. at the Olympics no less?

Even Scott Hamilton immediately admits it's not fair to Josee, and says "I'm sure she was severely affected by what happened to Tonya Harding": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oa6KKL3HGaM

 

[GGFan]

I'm just pointing out that without a definition there's nothing to discuss. There's just opinion and gut feelings of what's unfair. Fairness can be defined in several ways and some ways cut against Josee.

If we're going to talk about fairness that way then we can get into a lot of unfairness in sport. It's unfair that Josee was born in a wealthy country with skating as a ready option. I'm sure there were people who were competing against her who had more obstacles than she did. It's not fair that some athletes are more gifted than others. Yet we do nothing to ameliorate that. It's not fair that some skaters go earlier in the competition when scores are lower, yet we allow for that.

All of these examples just to show that throwing out the word unfair is easy but once we open it up there's a lot of unfairness in the world of sport. Feeling bad for Josee does not necessarily mean that there was anything unfair in the competition sense. It may be unfair in a more general/gut level sense but there are lots of those kinds of things in competition.

ETA: Now Tonya getting to skate without a deduction is a completely different story altogether. I think we're all fortunate that she bombed the performance because I would have been pissed if she'd somehow medalled.

 

[GGFan]

Not to get serious on the topic (but some have already) but the topic made me curious, so I turned to YouTube.

At competitions a skater is called, they skate around for a moment, do a 4 minute program, leave the ice, get their scores. The next skater takes the ice. At the most, that's about 6 - 7 minutes, correct?

At the Olympics, Tonya was called, and didn't come to the ice. Clock starts at 0:00. She's in the back getting her lace tied. Tonya is given a two minute warning, which she almost uses up. She takes the ice. Skates about, messes up her lutz, starts to cry and goes to the judges/referee. Famous skate-up-on-the-boards moment happens, she pleads her case, she's told she can leave the ice, and she does. After a few moments, the announcement to the audience about what is happening, and the call is made for Josée to take the ice.

When Josée is called, the clock now reads 6:47, so 6 minutes and 47 seconds have passed since Tonya was first called, and Josée was called. It's pretty much the same amount of time that Josée would've gotten if Tonya had skated her whole program. In the end, I don't think Josée got called any earlier than she would've under normal circumstances.

I think gkelly was making this point earlier in the thread. If anything threw her off it was the atmosphere backstage, the crowd--which was pretty loud, and the lack of the usual routine. I would assume she's used to hearing scores and things going a certain way. Thanks for independently verifying that the time wasn't a factor though.

 

[4everchan]

Josée said herself that it threw her off... no need to make a thread about it... she said it in interviews. She was kind about it but as a skater who was not the best at managing her nerves, she had worked very hard in preparing, visualizing the competition etc, and being called early threw her off.... she said she was told to take her time, not to run, to walk to the boards, which she did,but you don't need a PhD to see that she wasn't feeling her legs on the ice there. As mentioned by others, the actual time it took is not the main factor here.. it's the routine.. her coach was trying to calm things down etc.. etc...

I have always been a huge fan of Josée. I know how much potential there was there that wasn't fulfilled. However, whether or not she was known to headcase at time, what happened in 94 to her was heartbreaking.... How can people say : meh, it doesn't matter, she was often headcasing... instead of being kind and realise that exactly, she was sensitive to such things, she needed calm and peace, and her preparation was undermined by unforeseen events.

I have been rushed onto the stage a few times.... the show must go on as people say... whether or not you are a calm performer, it's never fun to be thrown off your rhythm just when you have to deliver a performance. I also now never check my cellphone before performing... sometimes things happen and will obscure your mind... like your date telling you he won't come to your recital... and has a lame excuse... or... whatever

What is very stupid in all of this : Tonya got to skate later on... like you cannot tie your boots for the olympics.. it's okay,, we will give you another chance. I have the feeling that to tie one's boots is easier to do than to control one's nerves at Olympics...

so my verdict :

Guilty :Tonya
Guilty : ISU/organization for letting this happen and create collateral damage

Innocent : Josée :

to those who say that she was invited to tons of shows and pro competitions because of that? maybe... but i say that as a 3 time Canadian champion, with her looks, her skating skills and musical sense, and her big jumps, she would have made her mark anyways.... she did btw win a medal at GPF and was ranked 5th in the worlds at one point... we are not talking just about a pretty face. She had tons of talent.

 

[Inessence]

If Josee decided to hang around and watch Tonya’s skate right before her own, during this Olympics of all times, then its on her. It’s also not Tonya’s fault if Josee is so easily rattled. Probably why many skaters don’t watch their competitors skating before them so they not be unduly influenced or otherwise affected by their performance.

 

[GGFan]

I have always been a huge fan of Josée. I know how much potential there was there that wasn't fulfilled. However, whether or not she was known to headcase at time, what happened in 94 to her was heartbreaking.... How can people say : meh, it doesn't matter, she was often headcasing... instead of being kind and realise that exactly, she was sensitive to such things, she needed calm and peace, and her preparation was undermined by unforeseen events.

I think it's pretty easy to convince people:

1. It was not an ideal situation.
2. It was heartbreaking or sad to watch.

I think in determining unfairness some people subconsciously or consciously weigh the chances the athlete had because they're trying to figure out what would happen in an alternative universe, which is impossible of course. I think if Josée has been a world medalist or a consistent performer there would have been a larger outage. Where in Josée's case there was something more akin to pity.

ETA: Let's agree to disagree on the existence of the thread.

 

[GGFan]

Now that lots of folks have weighed in I just wanted to give my own analysis. Until now I've been mostly reading, learning, and asking devil's advocate questions.

In looking at Josée's performance:

1.I would attribute her first fall to feeling rushed/being out of sorts.
2. But then she settles in and seems to be back to normal and I think the incident is out of her head.
3. Very late in the performance she pops the lutz and I think that's unrelated.
4. At the end of the permanence she falls on the triple toe and I think that's unrelated.

Of course I don't know for sure but that's my gut feeling.

Do I think the world handed Josée a bad break that night? yes
Do I think Tonya got away with something by skating at the end? yes
Do I think Josée missed out on a medal because of it? no

 

[gkelly]

When Josée is called, the clock now reads 6:47, so 6 minutes and 47 seconds have passed since Tonya was first called, and Josée was called. It's pretty much the same amount of time that Josée would've gotten if Tonya had skated her whole program. In the end, I don't think Josée got called any earlier than she would've under normal circumstances.

Thanks for checking the clock.

As I said earlier, I don't think the amount of time was much different than what she had been expecting. The frantic atmosphere backstage would probably have been more rattling.

 

[charlotte14]

Being a competitor means you do not always get the ideal situation to compete. It is just how life is.

 

[lesnar001]

I think it's pretty easy to convince people:

1. It was not an ideal situation.
2. It was heartbreaking or sad to watch.

I think in determining unfairness some people subconsciously or consciously weigh the chances the athlete had because they're trying to figure out what would happen in an alternative universe, which is impossible of course. I think if Josée has been a world medalist or a consistent performer there would have been a larger outage. Where in Josée's case there was something more akin to pity.

ETA: Let's agree to disagree on the existence of the thread.

Can you imagine if it had been Nancy Kerrigan that had to be rushed to skate next instead of Josee?

 

[4everchan]

Now that lots of folks have weighed in I just wanted to give my own analysis. Until now I've been mostly reading, learning, and asking devil's advocate questions.

In looking at Josée's performance:

1.I would attribute her first fall to feeling rushed/being out of sorts.
2. But then she settles in and seems to be back to normal and I think the incident is out of her head.
3. Very late in the performance she pops the lutz and I think that's unrelated.
4. At the end of the permanence she falls on the triple toe and I think that's unrelated.

Of course I don't know for sure but that's my gut feeling.

Do I think the world handed Josée a bad break that night? yes
Do I think Tonya got away with something by skating at the end? yes
Do I think Josée missed out on a medal because of it? no

Just for clarification : Josée was far enough from podium not to think about a medal. Her SP wasn't strong enough. I don't think the point is about a medal or not, it's mostly that she said she was robbed of her moment, her olympic Free program. Not all athletes, especially not the kind who has never been known to skate back to back clean programs, aim at the podium.. but the Olympics, happen only so often that it is a special moment and that's what Josée said : it was taken away..

BTW : yes.. i agree the first jump, she is totally not ready for it... and when i saw that, I swore at Tonya in words I cannot write here and yes, i agree that she sort of settled in but i never felt she was quite herself.... also : for having followed her every competition : when Josée did succeed the first jump, she could skate clean. It happened at Nationals a few times... but definitely, she never went clean after an initial fall in a LP... never. Even if she did recollect herself in the program, the type of performer she was back then could certainly have said, "damn it, i am doing ok... if only I had had that frrst jump-------pops the lutz... falls on her easiest jump"

We will never know what kind of skate she would have had but that's really not important... what matters is what was taken away. It's been almost 25 years and I remember it like it was yesterday.... imagine how she dealt with that? I am sure some psychotherapist somewhere had a lot of work to do so she could remain the lovely person she still is now.

Josée : marry me

 

[NAOTMAA]

I have sympathy but athletes should be prepared for anything at any moment, including the unexpected. They souldn't always expect everything to go as expected on some perfect schedule.

They should be mentally prepared and ready to go the moment they enter the arena. Know what they have to do inside and out and focus on that one thing. Yes there are moments that can rattle but athletes should know how to quickly put it behind them and keep going and fighting. That's why they train so hard and long.

In no other sport, in a situation like Josee's, would people say, "oh you poor thing." They would tell her to suck it up and complete her job and if she couldn't too bad that's what separate the winners and losers (not just in terms of winning the whole competition or a medal but in the spirit sense). I think in many respects skating fans seem a lot softer and coddle moreso then fans from other sports do.

 

[Mathman]

I think the rules have changed about this sort of shoe-lace thing, haven't they? Don't skaters now have to correct the problem within a certain amount of time and then continue from where they left off?

 

[GGFan]

BTW : yes.. i agree the first jump, she is totally not ready for it... and when i saw that, I swore at Tonya in words I cannot write here and yes, i agree that she sort of settled in but i never felt she was quite herself.... also : for having followed her every competition : when Josée did succeed the first jump, she could skate clean. It happened at Nationals a few times... but definitely, she never went clean after an initial fall in a LP... never. Even if she did recollect herself in the program, the type of performer she was back then could certainly have said, "damn it, i am doing ok... if only I had had that frrst jump-------pops the lutz... falls on her easiest jump"

Yea, this is sports ultimately. Again, tough break and I'll always feel for her. But we're really stretching things to say that the initial fall caused everything else. We've all watched Josee enough in international competition to know that she could head case and lose her way for many reasons. I feel bad but no one will convince me that there was an injustice.

Can you imagine if it had been Nancy Kerrigan that had to be rushed to skate next instead of Josee?

There would have been crazy outrage because of the history and because she was a contender. I know medals are not everything but that's how a lot of us human beings analyze these things. What was your loss? If it was something tangible like hardware, we are a lot more understanding. If it was unideal set of circumstances and the person was a non contender we tend to feel sorry but say "that's sports."

 

[Mdk0144]

Off the topic, but I anticipated G&G versus M&D thread before coming up nancy and oksana

 

[gkelly]

I think the rules have changed about this sort of shoe-lace thing, haven't they? Don't skaters now have to correct the problem within a certain amount of time and then continue from where they left off?

Yes, the rules about interruptions and restarts have changed several times over the past 25 years.

Rule 515 in the current ISU rulebook applies.
For "Adverse conditions related to the Competitor and/or his Equipment,"
*if the skater can start again quickly they don't need to report to the referee, the music keeps playing, and if they can resume within 40 seconds they get a deduction (and lose whatever elements they missed during that time); if they don't resume within 40 seconds and haven't reported to the referee, the music is stopped and they're considered withdrawn.
*If they can't fix the problem immediately, they report to the referee within 40 seconds and they get another 3 minutes to fix the problem. The music is stopped while they fix it. When the problem is solved, they continue from the point of interruption ("or, if the interruption occurred at the entrance to or during an element, at the point immediately following this element"). The referee takes a deduction.

There are also rules for adverse conditions unrelated to the competitor or his equipment, for music problems, for medical attention being required in the opinion of the referee, for adverse conditions before starting the program.

None of the current ISU rules seem to allow for letting the skater start again at the end of the warmup group.