Sasha Cohen update

[Mathman]

Plus we all got to see just a little more skating because of it!

That's Michelle. Sacrificing herself for the common good.

 

[antmanb]

But why must you keep referring to Sasha dismissively as "the past"? That's what I don't understand. Is 27-yr-old Venus Wiliams "the past"? Was 24-yr-old Khorkina competing for her 3rd World Gold "the past"?

As you know i'm totally in agreement with you about the young up and comers having to beat the (returning) veterans if they want to have their glory day in the Olympic sun, however, i'm not sure anyone is referring dismissively about Sasha as the past - it is simply a fact that she is in the past from a competitive skating perspective. The last time she competed was at the end of the last Olympic cycle (that's in the past). She herself has said she has NOT YET come to a decision about whetehr to try to come back for the Olympics, this decision will be made in May/June of this year (that's straight from the horses mouth). Therefore until that official announcement (and actually more important than the announcement is actually competing in an international competition, or the national championships) then i would say objectively Sasha is in the past.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I've always enjoyed watching Sasha skate with all that flexibility but if I forget about the flexibility, how much would I still enjoy Sasha?

My question would be 'how much would you like Sasha without the flexibiliy'?

 

[antmanb]

OK, but the point is she was always judged to a higher standard than most. Kwan never got OGM, is she a failure too? Sasha and anyone else is still human. Kwan doesn't need OGM to be considered a legend and IMO neither does Sasha.

But the main difference between Kwan and Cohen isn't in comparing Olympic records (which incidentally Kwan best by one Olympic Bronze) but in the 5 world titles and 9 national titles to Sasha's 1 national title.

That IMO makes Kwan a legend and Cohen not at all.

And the fact remains that for Kwan not having the OGM is still a blip on an otherwise practically unbeatable record (certainly in the modern era). With just one of her Olympic visits yielding a gold she could be a legend like Witt.

Lack of a world gold is a stain on her record, but who would you honestly consider more of a legend - Sasha or Kimmie? :sheesh:

IMO neither are legends really.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

I've always enjoyed watching Sasha skate with all that flexibility but if I forget about the flexibility, how much would I still enjoy Sasha?

My question would be 'how much would you like Sasha without the flexibiliy'?

Isn't that a bit like asking how much would you like Midori Ito without the jumps? Or how would you like Kwan if she weren't so consistent. Or in fact replace any skater's name and substitute the skill with something that skater were famous for.

Ant

 

[Mathman]

What Sasha has, to me, is star quality. She should always wear red. When Sasha performs, you can't take your eyes off her.

About medals and championships, I think no matter how you slice it there is a certain amount of luck involved. In other sports, not only can you try to score but also you can try to prevent the other guys from scoring. In figure skating you control only your own perfomance.

Sasha skated well enough in the 2005 world championships to win many a contest. But there was no stopping hurricane Irina. Michelle's 1998 Olympic performances would have won the gold medal most years. But Tara skated even better.

At 2000 Worlds, Michelle threw down the gauntlet with the Red Violin. But even so she needed help from Slutskaya to skate just well enough to place ahead of Maria Butyrskaya, but behind Michelle, to give Michelle the overall gold.

Stuff happens.

 

[Particle Man]

But the main difference between Kwan and Cohen isn't in comparing Olympic records (which incidentally Kwan best by one Olympic Bronze) but in the 5 world titles and 9 national titles to Sasha's 1 national title. That IMO makes Kwan a legend and Cohen not at all.

I don't really buy all of that. I like Michelle Kwan, she certainly was a fierce competitor, and a legend, and deserves to be praised. But many criticized her for lack of high technical difficulty and said she was often over-marked, and I have a tendency to agree. Would she have won those piles of world gold medals if she were the same age and competing now, under CoP and facing the Asians, instead of under 6.0 and facing the Russians or whoever else? It's fair to at LEAST say she would have probably won not as many. And honestly, probably a lot less.

In short, she was able to shine a lot brighter and longer in the environment she was in. Sasha didn't have nearly as much of that environment, though she did have a few years under 6.0, but our girls today REALLY don't have that. They have to bite and claw for every inch of what they earn, and sometimes lose it at the whim of the numbers game. Sasha can be blamed for failing when she failed, but she can't be blamed for not having 9 nationals and 5 world titles like Kwan. It's a completely unfair comparison. No one will EVER have that with CoP, nor would Kwan have earned even close to that under CoP.

Yes Kwan is a legend. If you don't think Sasha is a legend, that's fine. But saying "14 vs. 1" as some kind of honest comparison is just basically a joke.

 

[Mathman]

A little bit off topic, but on the subject of who represents "the past" -- you all know that "Mirai" means "the future" in Japanese, right? :agree:

 

[AwesomeIce]

Yes Kwan is a legend. If you don't think Sasha is a legend, that's fine. But saying "14 vs. 1" as some kind of honest comparison is just basically a joke.

I think it is a totally fair comparison. Sasha just failed to pull it all together when it counted, and it doesn't matter what system she was competing under. CoP or 6.0, either way she was unable to complete two great programs when it really mattered. Kwan was a great competitor, Sasha was not. And the judges clearly wanted to give her titles so many times, she just could not bring hold it together for the long program.

 

[Particle Man]

I think it is a totally fair comparison.

Sasha just failed to pull it all together when it counted

Except for her fantastic '02 and '03 seasons with a total of 6 senior gold medals (3 per season), but we'll just ignore those for the sake of non-objective Sasha-bashing,

and it doesn't matter what system she was competing under. CoP or 6.0, either way she was unable to complete two great programs when it really mattered.

How's that relevant to the main point, which was that Kwan would not have earned NEARLY as many gold medals under CoP, thereby proving that your 14 vs 1 argument is as ludicrous as I said?

Michelle competed from the '93 season to the '04 season. All of her Nationals medals were under 6.0. She never competed at Nationals under CoP. In fact her only medal under CoP is a bronze at Worlds, where Sasha got silver. Sasha also beat her at the previous worlds, 2nd vs 4th. Why did Michelle "fail to pull it all together when it counted?" And that brings me back to the older point, which is that neither of them "pulled it all together" for the Olympic gold. But Kwan is still a legend and Sasha is not, "14 vs 1" so apparently:

- Olympic gold doesn't matter
- World gold does matter
- World silver doesn't matter
- Grand prix doesn't matter
- CoP and 6.0 are the same

And thus we can pick and choose from our medal pools to manufacture a ridiculous, one-sided joke.

 

[Enero]

I think it is a totally fair comparison. Sasha just failed to pull it all together when it counted, and it doesn't matter what system she was competing under. CoP or 6.0, either way she was unable to complete two great programs when it really mattered. Kwan was a great competitor, Sasha was not. And the judges clearly wanted to give her titles so many times, she just could not bring hold it together for the long program.

I completely disagree with the bolded section of this quote. Sasha may not have had the consistency of Michelle, but she never gave up on a program and always skated with heart. Being a great competitor is so much more than winning.

 

[Tonichelle]

As much as I love Sasha... except for the 2006 Olympics where she didn't just implode I think AI's assessment is fair.

 

[DragonPhoenix]

And thus we can pick and choose from our medal pools to manufacture a ridiculous, one-sided joke.

Very true. And it’s not only picking and choosing from medal pools, and even not only in figure skating. Alot of people tend to pick and choose to manufacture one sided jokes to promote biased opinions about pretty much everything under the sun.

 

[Mathman]

No one will EVER have that with CoP, nor would Kwan have earned even close to that under CoP.

I agree with the first part of this sentence -- it will be a long, long time befoire we see another skater achieve the kind of competitive success that Michelle did.

I do not think, however, that this had anything to do with the scoring system. Michelle was simply a better skater than the ladies she faced in competition and would have won under any scoring system.

Let's check it out. Would Michelle have had 9 U.S. titles if a different scoring system had been in place? Who was going to beat her? She was 5 and 0 against Sasha, 1 and 0 against Kimmie, , 4 and 0 against Alissa, 3 and 0 against Sarah Hughes, 5 and 0 against Bebe, someting and 0 against Naomi Nari Nam, Jennifer Kirk, A.P. McDonough, Amber Corwin, Angela Nikodinov, Emily Hughes. She beat Nicole Bobek twice.

If you want to talk tech, here are the number of triples that Michelle landed in her LP at Nationals from 1998 to 2004. 1998, 7; 1999, 7; 2000, 6; 2001, 6; 2002, 6; 2003. 6; 2004, 6.

Number of falls in all those performances combined, 1 (in 1999).

By the way, at 1996 Nationals she is credited under 6.0 judging with 6 triples, because one of her jump landings was double-footed. Under the more lenient CoP judging she would have had 7.

Or are PCSs more to the point? We could look up the number of 6.0s that Michelle received to get a clue for how she would have fared on the second mark under the IJS.

What about the current crop of U.S. ladies? Ashley Wagner, Mirai Nagasu, Caroline Zhang, Rachael Flatt. Could they have outskated Michelle under CoP judging during Michelle's prime? Well, anything's possible, but they couldn't beat Alissa and her 4 triples last month.

Internationally? If the CoP had been in force during the Kwan years, would that have made Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Suguri, Sokolova, Hughes or Soldatova (all the 2nd and 3rd place competitors during those years) skate better than they did?

Everybody loves Sasha, Sarah and all the rest. But (in my humble opinion) we need to keep a little perspective here. :yes:

 

[museksk8r]

Lack of a world gold is a stain on her record, but who would you honestly consider more of a legend - Sasha or Kimmie?

I wouldn't consider either of them to be close to legend status to be completely honest. That's not to say that they are bad skaters because that is certainly not the case. They're good, not great, IMO.

 

[museksk8r]

. . . it is simply a fact that she is in the past from a competitive skating perspective. The last time she competed was at the end of the last Olympic cycle (that's in the past). She herself has said she has NOT YET come to a decision about whetehr to try to come back for the Olympics, this decision will be made in May/June of this year (that's straight from the horses mouth). Therefore until that official announcement (and actually more important than the announcement is actually competing in an international competition, or the national championships) then i would say objectively Sasha is in the past.

Ant

Totally agree! Very well said. :agree::yes:

 

[tarotx]

Sasha wasn't a great competitor but she wasn't a disaster either. She went to 5 world championships (2002-2006) and has 2 forth place finishes, 1 bronze medal and 2 silver medals. Sasha has also went to 2 olympics and has a 4th place finish and a sliver medal. Sasha went to 2 gpf's and has a gold and silver. Sasha has been to 6 us nationals and has 1 gold, 1 bronze and 4 silvers. Do we really need to compare her to Michelle? Not many skaters in the history of skating can compare to Michelle. I think we can look at Sasha's record and see that she was at the top tier of national and international skating during her senior career and that's something she should take pride in. Rather Sasha is a legend or not depends on who you're asking. I think history will remember both her good and bad traits. I see her as a legend but I'm pretty much an ubber. I say time will tell.

 

[museksk8r]

Kwan was a great competitor, Sasha was not.

I see it as Kwan was a great competitor, fact! Cohen was a one program competitor, usually the SP, but unfortunately for her, the LP always got her.

 

[Mathman]

I see her as a legend but I'm pretty much an ubber. I say time will tell.

I agree. It may well happen that under the new judging system we will never again see the type of gorgeous skating that we could always count on from Sasha. Years from now we might be looking back at the Cohen years with a lot of sweet nostalgia.

 

[AdamFan]

Kwan also fell on her triple loop in her 2000 Nationals long program.