Sasha Cohen update

[antmanb]

I don't really buy all of that. I like Michelle Kwan, she certainly was a fierce competitor, and a legend, and deserves to be praised. But many criticized her for lack of high technical difficulty and said she was often over-marked, and I have a tendency to agree. Would she have won those piles of world gold medals if she were the same age and competing now, under CoP and facing the Asians, instead of under 6.0 and facing the Russians or whoever else? It's fair to at LEAST say she would have probably won not as many. And honestly, probably a lot less.

But that's just ridiculous coulda woulda shoulda-ing! The whole point of this is that Kwan isn't skating now - she skated when she did, against who she did and she won. That's all you need to do in skating. She didn't win aganist Lipinski or Hughes at the Olympics. Sasha was there for 4 years too (in fact Sasha only did three more competitions than Kwan - 06 Nationals. 06 Olys and 06 Worlds) so if the field was so easy why didn't Sasha have more of those medals? Kwan faced Slutskaya - a formidable opponent and she (Slutskaya) could only take two world gold medals in all those competitions.

Everyone has their own opinions about raising the technical bar and I personally think that she was the first (dare I actually say only since no-one else seems to have managed it since either, granted COP doesn't make it easy by limiting jumping passes) to regularly put down a 7 triple program. I know some people don't think that's all that, personally I do. Did she get overmarked sometimes? Absolutely. But most skaters do benefit from overmarking over the course of their career(Slutskaya and Cohen both benefitted from overmarking over their careers) and quite frankly the last worlds that used 6.0 AND annonymous judging was a complete joke for throwing out 6.0s and to my mind that last 6.0 season shouldn't be included in the tallies for "most 6.0s given".

In short, she was able to shine a lot brighter and longer in the environment she was in. Sasha didn't have nearly as much of that environment, though she did have a few years under 6.0, but our girls today REALLY don't have that. They have to bite and claw for every inch of what they earn, and sometimes lose it at the whim of the numbers game. Sasha can be blamed for failing when she failed, but she can't be blamed for not having 9 nationals and 5 world titles like Kwan. It's a completely unfair comparison. No one will EVER have that with CoP, nor would Kwan have earned even close to that under CoP.

No-one is blaming Sasha for anything - i'm just comparing the records on paper - something that will be done by fans in the future. I'm not sure your crystal ball predictions of how Kwan might have faired under the COP had she been younger and hitting her peak under COP are quite right. Kwan had consistency comparable with Pluschenko - who did phenominally well under COP. My gut feeling is that old reliable would have put down those programs with her quality rotated jumps and would have been left the leader of the pack where others fell and stumbled. It's a moot point though because Kwan won what she did, when she did and nothing can take that away from her.

Yes Kwan is a legend. If you don't think Sasha is a legend, that's fine. But saying "14 vs. 1" as some kind of honest comparison is just basically a joke.

If the question is how many titles have skaters over the years won then that is the truthful answer - that's all there is to it. In that list Kwan isn't at the top either, there are good few skaters ahead of her.

The point is - titles don't diminish anyone's like (or dislike) of a skater. Personally i've never watched a single medal ceremony - I find them boring. Even though she has no significant titles (except maybe som national titles) personally i've watched all of Fleur Maxwell's programs over the years and think she was a truly beautiful skater, I could list several skaters like her who never got those harder triple jumps. Sasha's record absolutely annihilates their records. Does it matter? Not one bit! Was Sasha a better skater/competitor absolutely, does that mean i can't enjoy their skating? Absolutely not.

Ant

 

[demarinis5]

antman's entire post :thumbsup:

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Sasha, for me, has been an enigma throughout her competitive career. She could whiz through her SPs and beat the field at that game but when it came to the LP, something happened to her which I do not understand. She seemed to just throw the gold away.

Most nobably in 2004 Dortmund Worlds where she skated a superb LP in the QR and another great skate in the SP, then folded completely in the real LP.
She seemeto continue in that vane for the rest of her comps. I can not figure out a reason.

 

[tarotx]

Sasha didn't fold the 2004 lp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2QZi69xhIU

.

 

[MKFSfan]

Because, IMO, while she is a talented skater, wonderful performer, has all the "IT" star quality, she is not a great competitor. Everyone said she was the best practice skater ever, but that does not matter. What matters most in being a stellar competitor is how you perform when it counts, on the bigger stage, be it Worlds, Olympics, the World Series in baseball, whatever, and that is where Sasha's resume is lacking, she has never reached her full potential at the biggest events. She couldn't seem to handle being a step away from Gold-2006 Worlds/Olympics, even Nationals (yes she won, and still had 2 major mistaks) and 2004 Worlds/Nats/GPF.

edited: Did you really think that LP was worthy of Gold? Not only was it not worthy of Gold at that competition, it was ranked 3rd best in the LP. She performed well below her capabilities, I thought that was the 2nd worst she had skated that LP (after the Dec Cheesefest meltdown)-IMO, she performed it much better on the GP series (not GPF) and Nationals up until the fall was SO much better, more emotion, more speed. That LP was a let down.

 

[tarotx]

I'm not saying she deserved to win. She didn't have a lot of emotion but she didn't fold either. Sasha has never been a lp skater. She's not a great competitor. I do think that she holds her own when you are comparing her to skaters on a whole and not isolate it to Michelle.

 

[MKFSfan]

My apologies if I came off harsh! I went back and rewatched 2004 Nats 1st, and then the link you provided. While I still think the 1st half of Nats triumphs all of Worlds, I now see that as a whole, Sasha skated better at Worlds. That LP was watered down and she seemed more tentative, but she didn't fall-had the messy salchow and the 1st two jump landings were iffy. But she didn't seem quite as "deer in the headlights" as I recalled.

Still, her resume is one to envy! I'm sure there are thousands of skaters who can wish to be as "terrible" a competitor as Sasha! I just don't think she'll go down as one of the best competitors, or even regarded as a Legend.

 

[Tinymavy15]

Sasha, for me, has been an enigma throughout her competitive career. She could whiz through her SPs and beat the field at that game but when it came to the LP, something happened to her which I do not understand. She seemed to just throw the gold away.

Most nobably in 2004 Dortmund Worlds where she skated a superb LP in the QR and another great skate in the SP, then folded completely in the real LP.
She seemeto continue in that vane for the rest of her comps. I can not figure out a reason.

She never completly fell apart. I think the nearest she ever came to "folding" was at the 2006 world were most of her jumps were messy, but she did not fall until the very last jump. Usually she skated perfect programs with one fall another such mistake. She almost never popped a jump. Her LP at the 2002 olympic would have been perfect if she had not tried the 3/3, something she usually did not attempt. I don't remeber her really ever having an event where she skated like some of Carolina's LP's or Kimmie's 2008 nationals.

 

[mjames]

Sasha had and has the best costumes in the history of figure skating. The quality is so far above the rest!

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Sasha didn't fold the 2004 lp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2QZi69xhIU

.

That youtube shows her in a much better light than what I saw LIVE in Dortmund. . Could have been her QR which was also her LP. But it's not worth arguing about. She placed third in the Free Skate. Judges ordinals gave her 1-1-3. Hard to believe the judges would not give her at least a 2 for her LP.

I stand by my opinion. Sasha freezes in the LP in every comp. That doesn't stop me from rooting for her - kinda like Czisny.

 

[Particle Man]

Exquisite perfection with one bobble. And you know when she was interviewed afterward, that one bobble was the only thing they would ask her about. Guess I understand why she left after all.

 

[Mathman]

There was another SOI related Sasha interview in the Detroit Free Press today. Nothing new ("I'll make a decision in June"), but she mentioned that she takes inspiration from Todd Eldredge, who can still do a triple Axel at age 37, and Yuka Sato, who is still "skating incredibly" at 36.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Exquisite perfection with one bobble. And you know when she was interviewed afterward, that one bobble was the only thing they would ask her about. Guess I understand why she left after all.

If that youtube was her LP and not her QLP, then how did Kwan beat her in the LP? For some reason she seemed downhearted throughout. I can't remember where Shizuka was befor the LP but she had no problem winning the crowd over with her LP. Was it enough to put Sasha in 3rd place after two firsts? Kwan was like in 5th or 6th place after the QLP.

 

[antmanb]

If that youtube was her LP and not her QLP, then how did Kwan beat her in the LP? For some reason she seemed downhearted throughout. I can't remember where Shizuka was befor the LP but she had no problem winning the crowd over with her LP. Was it enough to put Sasha in 3rd place after two firsts? Kwan was like in 5th or 6th place after the QLP.

Arakawa was first in her qualifying group and was in second after the SP (the SP order was 1. Cohen; 2. Arakawa; 3. Ando; 4. Kwan). I can't access youtube at work so i don't know which of Sasha's programs has been posted, but i think Kwan landed 5 triples in the LP at worlds.

Ant

 

[tarotx]

Sasha skated in her black and white Swan dress in the qualifying rd so this is the lp. I only posted it to show that Sasha didn't fold the lp not to question the result. It was skated a lot like Alissa's lp at nationals this year-Sasha was trying not to fall instead of going all out. It was a bare bones SL compared it how it was choreographed during gp events.

 

[Mathman]

The performance posted was the final LP (as Tarotx says above), not the qualifying round. Here it is from Eurosport with commentary in English.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWnp6dgwmmw&feature=related

Besides the mistake on the Salchow, the commentators said about the opening Lutz that, in additrion to the wrong edge take-off, the landing was "not pretty, but she held on to it." When Sasha missed on the Salchow they said flat out, "that will cost her the gold."

Sasha's technical scores were 5.6's and 5.7's. Arakawa's margin of victory was that she did two triple-triples and Sasha did not do a triple-triple combo (although all three of her multi-jump elements were excellent.)

Michelle also gave an amazing performance. Her only error was doubling the last jump of her program, her second Lutz.

I think it was the overall "technical mastery of the skating vocablary" (to quote from the rules of the CoP ), together with the depth of artistic maturity of Michelle's skating, that placed her ahead of Sasha in the LP.

 

[Buttercup]

Sasha had and has the best costumes in the history of figure skating. The quality is so far above the rest!

Really? I actually found most of her costumes to be dull and some to be downright ugly, a shame considering Sasha herself is so pretty. And she picked a hideous costume when she was on Project Runway a few years ago. Her R&J costume was ok, I guess.

Kwan had classy costumes, and she actually used color in them, unlike the many sparkly pastel looks that are common these days. Of the current skaters, the Finnish ladies usually look lovely, and some of the pairs and dance competitors also have great costumes.

As for the skating itself, Sasha is so frustrating - she has so much talent but I wish it would have all come together for her at a major event, at least once.

 

[MKFSfan]

I loved Sasha's R&J dresses and her 1st Mal dress. Other than that, I really haven't liked many of her competition dresses. Some of her exhibitions dresses have been beautiful-LOVE the dresses for Don't Rain on My Parade, Moonlight Sonata and Hurt (I think...when she wore the beige dress).

The only dresses of hers I really did NOT like is the yellow Mal dress and the 2nd Swan Lake dress. The rest were just there, IMO of course.

 

[AwesomeIce]

Sasha had and has the best costumes in the history of figure skating. The quality is so far above the rest!

Really? I didn't care for most of hers. I found most of them to be okay but one or two details on each kept them from being beautiful IMO. I know she takes pride in "designing" her own dresses, but so often she doesn't seem to know what is flattering on herself.

 

[jennylovskt]

Sasha Cohen's golden era in skating and in costume was the period when she was with Tatiana Tarasova. All her famous competitive programs after she left Tarasova, seemed like recycled programs from that period.