The role and influence of gender traits in Figure Skating

[TMC]

Would you say that certain skaters have an overall "masculine" or "feminine" style? Would you say that some skaters are able to, if you will, add a "masculine" or "feminine" flavour to certain programmes, when appropriate? What makes a style/program "masculine" or "feminine" in your eyes?

I started thinking about this yesterday when I was watching Joshi Helgesson's SP at Lombardia. I've also lately been watching some videos of skaters that I had 'missed' when I had a long break (1997-2010 basically) from watching FS; Laura Lepistö, Brian Joubert, Stéphane Lambiel etc etc.

I'm attracted to some male skaters who appear to have almost exclusively masculine qualities (ex. Elvis Stojko wuzrobbed 4eva!) as well as female skaters who appear to me to be feminine through and through (ex. Brooklee Han). And obviously some skaters that I like fall somewhere in the middle (Yuna Kim)
But I found it curious that I seem to most enjoy female skaters who have "masculine" styles or qualities, and conversely, male skaters who have "feminine" styles or qualities. What's that about? (She asks herself)

It's so difficult to put to words why one finds one performance/style feminine and another masculine. There are so many factors that contribute to the impression.

To me, a female skater comes across as having masculine qualities if they have some or all of these qualities (compared to other female skaters in an event):

- Considerably better speed and ice coverage (ex. Wakaba Higuchi)
- "Attack", which to me is speed into elements, no hesitation (Gracie Gold, Higuchi)
- Really, really High, explosive jumps with both speed and ice coverage and/or with extras, such as Rippon arms (Vivian Le)
- Unusual spins (no Biellmans, rarer layback positions)
- Extroverted charisma, which to me is the skater clearly projecting outside, performing to the audience, as opposed to being in their own world (Akiko Suzuki, Valentina Marchei)
- Performance, as above but with added blatant flirting with the audience (Ashley Wagner, Joshi Helgesson)

To me, a male skater comes across as having feminine qualities if they have some or all of these qualities (compared to other male skaters in an event):

- Innate musicality, movement to the music that gives a dancer-like impression (ex. Jason Brown)
- Ballet-esque extension down to toes and fingertips (as above)
- Slower speed (not necessarily slow across the ice but body movements etc. can give an impression of "carefulness", if you will) (Joshua Farris)
- Less frantic, ie. finishing movements fully before moving on to next element/transition (Yuzuru Hanyu)
- Arm variations in jumps and on landing (Adam Rippon, Alexander Petrov respectively)
- Unusual spin positions (layback, Biellman) (Rippon, Brown, Hanyu, Martinez)
- "Lyrical" movements, such as arms on landing, spirals, paying attention to arms during cross-overs etc.
- Introverted charisma, when a skater's performance appears contemplative rather than playing to the audience or hamming it up (Joshua Farris)
- Well expressed joy in skating, such as a genuine smile here and there or at the end at least, not letting their steely focus show outside so that it looks like they're passing kidney stones.

PS. Please let's keep references to any individual's sexuality, or really sexuality at all, out of this thread as such comments are prone to becoming flame-warlike.

 

[karne]

All ridiculous, all based on outdated, outmoded, foolish dinosaur ways of thinking.

Max is not any more "masculine" than Joshua or Jason, nor are they any more "feminine" than he is. They just all three happen to skate in different styles, and all three have different builds. Max is very fast, Joshua has a perfect balance on his blade, Jason is a little slower. Max jumps big, Joshua jumps perfectly straight, Jason jumps with perfectly pointed toes. Max loves classical music and ballet music, Joshua loves whiny guys with guitars, Jason listens to Top 40 stuff. This is just an example off the top of my head, it's not meant to say anything particular (it is almost midnight here!).

I'm just a little confused about your arbitrary division of skating qualities into "masculine" and "feminine".

 

[Mathman]

I see what you are getting at, TMC, but I have to agree with Karne that classifying the two sets of characteristics as "masculine" or "feminine" is sort of old fashioned. If "masculine" means "what men do" and "feminine" means "what women do" then there is a huge overlapping of styles and characteristics in the figure skating world.

I would not say that "flirting with the audience" is a "masculine" trait. Don't women flirt, too?

 

[TMC]

All ridiculous, all based on outdated, outmoded, foolish dinosaur ways of thinking.

Max is not any more "masculine" than Joshua or Jason, nor are they any more "feminine" than he is. They just all three happen to skate in different styles, and all three have different builds. Max is very fast, Joshua has a perfect balance on his blade, Jason is a little slower. Max jumps big, Joshua jumps perfectly straight, Jason jumps with perfectly pointed toes. Max loves classical music and ballet music, Joshua loves whiny guys with guitars, Jason listens to Top 40 stuff. This is just an example off the top of my head, it's not meant to say anything particular (it is almost midnight here!).

I'm just a little confused about your arbitrary division of skating qualities into "masculine" and "feminine".

Well, I don't think it's any more arbitrary than any other person's feeling/opinion. We've all been brought up in a society where gender divisions are a reality; we've been taught to see some things as feminine and some things as masculine. We can, of course, also think for ourselves.

I think you're upset because you think maybe that the way I divide masculine/feminine comes from some antiquated feeling that masculine = good, feminine = bad. That is not correct. I'm a feminist for pete's sake. BUT when I look at skaters, these are the qualities that I see, and dividing them to masculine/feminine is just a convenient way because most people - whether they want to or not - have their own ideas about what is masculine or feminine. I might as well have written yin/yang or red/blue qualities. But it would have been a bit more difficult to get the gist then, methinks.
Say we play the game where I say a word and you say the first thing that comes to your head, without thinking. Most people brought up in the world as it is now would say something like strong, assertive to masculine and graceful, sensitive to feminine. That is not a bad thing. Those qualities are good qualities. It's only when someone thinks/says that a man should not be sensitive because that is a feminine quality and feminine qualities are for pussies - well then the division becomes bad.

 

[ice coverage]

... To me, a female skater comes across as having masculine qualities if they have some or all of these qualities (compared to other female skaters in an event):

- Considerably better speed and ice coverage (ex. Wakaba Higuchi)
- "Attack", which to me is speed into elements, no hesitation (Gracie Gold, Higuchi)
- Really, really High, explosive jumps with both speed and ice coverage and/or with extras, such as Rippon arms (Vivian Le)
- Unusual spins (no Biellmans, rarer layback positions)
- Extroverted charisma, which to me is the skater clearly projecting outside, performing to the audience, as opposed to being in their own world (Akiko Suzuki, Valentina Marchei)
- Performance, as above but with added blatant flirting with the audience (Ashley Wagner, Joshi Helgesson)

To me, a male skater comes across as having feminine qualities if they have some or all of these qualities (compared to other male skaters in an event):

- Innate musicality, movement to the music that gives a dancer-like impression (ex. Jason Brown)
- Ballet-esque extension down to toes and fingertips (as above)
- Slower speed (not necessarily slow across the ice but body movements etc. can give an impression of "carefulness", if you will) (Joshua Farris)
- Less frantic, ie. finishing movements fully before moving on to next element/transition (Yuzuru Hanyu)
- Arm variations in jumps and on landing (Adam Rippon, Alexander Petrov respectively)
- Unusual spin positions (layback, Biellman) (Rippon, Brown, Hanyu, Martinez)
- "Lyrical" movements, such as arms on landing, spirals, paying attention to arms during cross-overs etc.
- Introverted charisma, when a skater's performance appears contemplative rather than playing to the audience or hamming it up (Joshua Farris)
- Well expressed joy in skating, such as a genuine smile here and there or at the end at least, not letting their steely focus show outside so that it looks like they're passing kidney stones. ...

Extroverted is a masculine quality?? And introverted is a feminine quality?? Yikes. Strongly disagree.

Joy is a feminine quality? Yikes. Strongly disagree.

But the one that really just makes no sense to me:

Rippon arms make Adam come across as feminine -- but Rippon arms make Vivian Le come across as masculine?
I know you are saying also that Vivian's jumps are high and explosive as well, but still??​

 

[TMC]

I see what you are getting at, TMC, but I have to agree with Karne that classifying the two sets of characteristics as "masculine" or "feminine" is sort of old fashioned. If "masculine" means "what men do" and "feminine" means "what women do" then there is a huge overlapping of styles and characteristics in the figure skating world.

I would not say that "flirting with the audience" is a "masculine" trait. Don't women flirt, too?

Oh for sure it's old-fashioned. But keeping that in mind, it's still one way to describe the impression one gets from a performance style. It's just for convenience's sake; I was thinking of the traditional classifications even though I obviously don't think that all men do something and all women do something and that's how it is and should forever be. I was just thinking about what has been traditionally thought of as feminine/masculine, why we think in those terms, and how we as individuals see those qualities in something so tiny as the move of a hand, for instance.

 

[TMC]

Extroverted is a masculine quality?? And introverted is a feminine quality?? Yikes. Strongly disagree.

Joy is a feminine quality? Yikes. Strongly disagree.

But the one that really just makes no sense to me:

Rippon arms make Adam come across as feminine -- but Rippon arms make Vivian Le come across as masculine?
I know you are saying also that Vivian's jumps are high and explosive as well, but still??​

Re extrovert/introvert: No, both are qualities that exist in both males and females. However, women have been expected to be quiet and delicate for centuries, and men to be assertive and commanding. This is why those qualities have become associated with gender. I don't think men aren't introverts or women aren't extroverts, but traditionally those have been their (forced) roles.
I'm just trying to describe something using adjectives that I feel are connected to what I see without endorsing old-timey gender roles.

Re Joy: No, I didn't mean that at all. Of course joy is experienced by both genders, but traditionally men have been discouraged to show emotions or feelings to the outside world. Boys don't cry and so on. That is why when a man is unafraid to show on the outside what he feels inside, he is doing something that has traditionally been frowned upon. I like to see people going against expectations, so to speak.

 

[nieves]

I'm just trying to describe something using adjectives that I feel are connected to what I see without endorsing old-timey gender roles.

Actually you are using 'old timey gender roles' to describe skating qualities!

 

[TMC]

I see what you are getting at, TMC, but I have to agree with Karne that classifying the two sets of characteristics as "masculine" or "feminine" is sort of old fashioned. If "masculine" means "what men do" and "feminine" means "what women do" then there is a huge overlapping of styles and characteristics in the figure skating world.

I would not say that "flirting with the audience" is a "masculine" trait. Don't women flirt, too?

I like this question! It is exactly what I had in mind in a way - yes, women too flirt. But go into any social occasion even today and you'll see that if a woman is over-flirty, she will be judged, whereas if a man is over-flirty, he will generally be thought virile or some such crap. (Not by all, but take a poll and you'll find that blatant flirting is thought to be more appropriate for men than for women). As a society we're slowly moving from strict behavioural "rules" to where we are more individualistic. Still it can't be denied that there are still big problems when it comes to equality. Both institutional and social problems.

It is the doing something that they as males or females have traditionally been judged for that I enjoy. A female skater doing a kick-*** martial arts themed programme? Awesome! A man doing a lyrical programme to romantic music? Lovely!

 

[TMC]

Actually you are using 'old timey gender roles' to describe skating qualities!

Using is not endorsing; if I said that all females have all feminine qualities and no males should have feminine qualities, I would be endorsing old-timey gender roles. I think that all people have both (what have traditionally been considered) feminine and masculine qualities, but some people have/present more or less than others. This is not a negative thing. What have traditionally been thought of as feminine qualities are not negative things in themselves. What have traditionally been considered masculine qualities are not negative things in themselves. It only becomes a problem when we try to artificially curb or judge these qualities in individuals for any reason.

 

[ice coverage]

deleted

Note to self: stay out of this thread :yes:.

 

[Mrs. P]

I think TMC is trying to point out how certain fans have seen certain qualities as one of the other. I think we can have a nuanced discussion on this with accusing people as being sexist, in fact I'm sure that is what TMC is seeking.

I also think a discussion whether if we should even define qualities as one or the other, as Mathman had done, is quite interesting.

For example, why is having "power" seen as a male trait in sports? It's why Serena Williams get a lot of flack. She accused of having an "unfair advantage" cause of her power. That always bothered me. Can you have power regardless of whether you are man or female?

 

[TMC]

I think TMC is trying to point out how certain fans have seen certain qualities as one of the other. I think we can have a nuanced discussion on this with accusing people as being sexist, in fact I'm sure that is what TMC is seeking.

Thank you

 

[MasterB]

I don't see how you can separate one from the other.

 

[TMC]

I also think a discussion whether if we should even define qualities as one or the other, as Mathman had done, is quite interesting.

For example, why is having "power" seen as a male trait in sports? It's why Serena Williams get a lot of flack. She accused of having an "unfair advantage" cause of her power. That always bothered me. Can you have power regardless of whether you are man or female?

Exactly. I find it disgusting how some people are treating the Williams sisters in social media :disapp:

ETA: I think that you can, of course, have power regardless of whether you're a male or a female. It is only a problem when some people decide that power is an inappropriate quality in a female.

It can't be denied that certain qualities have traditionally been seen as feminine and certain qualities have traditionally been seen as masculine. Is power seen as a male trait? Yes. Do I think it is a male trait? No. Does skater X have power? Yes. Does skater X therefore have what is seen as a masculine trait? Yes.

I'm sorry that what I wrote came across as sexist, because that's the last thing I wanted. I wanted rather to celebrate that we have a corps of skaters who present a wonderful array of qualities that have maybe traditionally been seen as belonging to one or other gender, and all of them are appreciated for who they are, not for how they fit in a predetermined role.

 

[dorispulaski]

I don't see how you can separate a discussion like this from politics...care will have to be taken by all to ensure that the conversation stays civil.


Which is why I must decline to participate meaningfully. For most of my life, and nearly all of my working life as an engineer, people's perceptions of what I would not be able to do, or I should not do, just because I am a woman, have been a source of trouble, anger, and grief for me.

And, in areas like skating, men and women still suffer from people's preconceptions about what they should be or do, and should not be or not do, just because of their gender identification.

I would prefer to like what I like and dislike what I dislike without worrying whether my feelings have anything to do with worrying about whether the particular characteristic of the skating is somehow definitively gendered.

 

[noskates]

Yikes. I read a few of the first posts and decided to run like hell from this thread. In my mind the basic premise of masculine and feminine is in the eye of the beholder and a whole lot of "stuff" goes into a person's opinion.

This is like pouring gasoline on fire and asking if it's going to blow up.

Does either matter anyway? A person either likes a skater's style or doesn't.

 

[ice coverage]

I think TMC is trying to point out how certain fans have seen certain qualities as one of the other. I think we can have a nuanced discussion on this with accusing people as being sexist, in fact I'm sure that is what TMC is seeking.

I also think a discussion whether if we should even define qualities as one or the other, as Mathman had done, is quite interesting.

For example, why is having "power" seen as a male trait in sports? It's why Serena Williams get a lot of flack. She accused of having an "unfair advantage" cause of her power. That always bothered me. Can you have power regardless of whether you are man or female?

Don't know if you are reacting to my post immediately above, Mrs. P.
I hope that it was clear that I am not discouraging others from taking part in this thread.

But for me (just l'il' ol' me :yes, this thread is not my cup of tea. My experience of watching skating honestly has nothing whatsoever to do with what TMC is talking about -- so I think it would be better for me (just me) to stay out of this thread.

To "steal" karne's examples:
I love to watch Josh's skating. I love to watch Max's skating.
When I watch Josh, my perspective never for one second has been, "His skating has some so-called 'feminine' qualities that I appreciate."
When I watch Max, my perspective never for one second has been, "His skating has some so-called 'masculine' qualities that I appreciate."
My reactions to watching Josh and Max simply are: I love Josh's skating. And I love Max's skating.

But again, I wasn't trying to deter others from participating in the thread.

 

[Mathman]

Oh for sure it's old-fashioned. But keeping that in mind, it's still one way to describe the impression one gets from a performance style. It's just for convenience's sake; I was thinking of the traditional classifications even though I obviously don't think that all men do something and all women do something and that's how it is and should forever be. I was just thinking about what has been traditionally thought of as feminine/masculine, why we think in those terms, and how we as individuals see those qualities in something so tiny as the move of a hand, for instance.

To me, one of the problems is this: If we are interested in things that have been traditionally associated with men and not so much with women … well, one of those things is participation in sports. One could ague that the very fact that you are out there at all is "traditionally masculine."

Figure skating, after all, arose from the practice of young bucks trying to impose their will on nature by carving their initials into the virgin ice.

 

[el henry]

First let me say that I think TMC poses an excellent question, and has taken care to frame it in a civil way. Bravo, TMC.

Also let me say (because it seems necessary in a thread like this, not because I think for one second anyone cares or should care) that there may be women in this world as feminist as I am. There may be women in this world who have fought sexism and gender stereotyping as much as I have over the past 40 years (I do not mean encountering sexism professionally, although maybe that too). And they may even be on this board. But none more. (If you really feel a burning need to know the details, PM me, I won't bore everyone here.)

And I was a Toller uber back in the day, so I know about sexual stereotyping in figure skating. That has nothing to do with my reaction to the question, nor, in my mind, should it affect anyone else's. But folks are folks, and reactions vary...

OK, end of intro and qualifier. I find myself in the same position as TMC. I love men skaters who confound what "men" are "supposed" to do: the ones who pay more attention to footwork and spins than jumps, the ones who are lyrical, the ones who play to the audience. I could give a rat's patootie, for men, about how many revolutions their jumps are. Big deal. I do care about the quality and technique of those jumps.

But for women; I could care less if they are “lyrical”. I really don’t watch the ladies, but when I do, I like the ones who jump, the ones who take charge of the ice, and yes, the ones who play to the audience (I guess that’s similar). I care more about how many revolutions they do. I find myself in the same quandary as TMC. I won't list the attributes, because they have already been listed. They could be mine.

I guess I am glad I am not alone.