The role and influence of gender traits in Figure Skating

[TMC]

The beauty of skating to me is the variety.

I still drool over old programs by Victoria Helgesson and Susanna Pöykiö as I like those mature skates with all their emotions. At the same time, I did enjoy Schindler´s List a lot by Julia or the naughty programs by some of the American skaters in the past 10 years.

Same can be said about the men, I always enjoy what Peter Liebers does or Sasha and Plushy. In my opinion, every "type" has something special and can bring something different to the table. It is however true that some skating fans tend to expect, that a female skater skates like a little girl and a male skater rips of his clothes.


I just came back from the US Open and we had such a discussion there about Serena. The basic "topic" on many days was how it is possible that Sharapova gets more attention and endorsement, while Serena wins the titles and gets less back so to speak. People there blamed it on her "look", that she is an athlete so to speak and not a Barbie doll... In my opinion, no person should be reduced to those things, it was not fair to Serena, just like it wasn't fair to Sharapova.

 

[WeakAnkles]

It might be more interesting to question the gender roles themselves. Why shouldn't a man be graceful, soft, lyrical--if that is what he wishes to express? Why shouldn't a woman be aggressive, athletic, powerful--if that is what she wishes to express? Why do we limit ourselves to such narrow categories? So much of gender is arbitrary and socially defined. So why not change the definitions? Because we DO define gender in countless ways.

The fact that it is called "Ladies" and "Men" is downright offensive and tells you loads about how out of touch figure skating is when it comes to gender.

 

[WeakAnkles]

To me, ballet and elegance are not masculine or feminine. They're about the objective beauty of the human form. So I don't really get people getting hung up on gender. If you're skating powerful but rough, it's going to be ugly whether you're a man or a woman. Likewise if you're skating "pretty" but have no oomph, it will look bad for either sex. That's just my take though.

De gustibus non est disputandum. I'd rather watch a great tap routine by say The Mills Brothers over Swan Lake any day of the week. Don't mistake questions of personal taste for "objective beauty." One person's "powerful but rough" is another person's "dynamic and exuberant."

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

The fact that it is called "Ladies" and "Men" is downright offensive and tells you loads about how out of touch figure skating is when it comes to gender.

How on earth is being a lady or a man offensive. This is a joke right?

 

[TMC]

How on earth is being a lady or a man offensive. This is a joke right?

I think WeakAnkles means the term "lady", which is pretty silly when you think about it. Like all other sports have "women's" and "men's" divisions, and figure skating has gender divisions that are still set in Victorian England....

 

[xibsuarz]

How on earth is being a lady or a man offensive. This is a joke right?

I guess (emphazising the 'guess') because it's 'ladies' and not 'women'

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I find lady to be an endearing term. I use it often in social settings....shall I banish my social life to a cave of shame? FWIW I've never received blow back in my social circle which is quite annoyingly progressive I might add....as too am I

I just don't find gender to be offensive. Being feminine is a strength and not one only reserved for women. I feel 100% ok with calling a male feminine and mean absolutely zero offense by it. I guess I just don't see any reason why anyone would take offense in possessing what I consider to be a good quality. I know others may try to use such terminology to be derogatory but that's a cross for them to bare. I'm not interested in wasting a second on their misery TBH.

BTW: I like the idea of this thread and think a lot can be learned about ourselves. It's almost like mini therepy for those of us willing to be honest and forthcoming.

I'm still processing and searching for a better understanding where gender roles affect my look on figure skating, and life in general , but I'm way more on the side of the fence that celebrates gender roles (I'd much prefer the term gender traits or even gender qualities) and finds them to be a great thing. This seems to put me at odds with quite a few posters who seem to find such qualities to be offensive when talked about.

 

[TMC]

I find lady to be an endearing term. I use it often in social settings....shall I banish my social life to a cave of shame? FWIW I've never received blow back in my social circle which is quite annoyingly progressive I might add....as too am I

I just don't find gender to be offensive. Being feminine is a strength and not one only reserved for women. I feel 100% ok with calling a male feminine and mean absolutely zero offense by it. I guess I just don't see any reason why anyone would take offense in possessing what I consider to be a good quality. I know others may try to use such terminology to be derogatory but that's a cross for them to bare. I'm not interested in wasting a second on their misery TBH.

BTW: I like the idea of this thread and think a lot can be learned about ourselves. It's almost like mini therepy for those of us willing to be honest and forthcoming.

I'm still processing and searching for a better understanding where gender roles affect my look on figure skating, and life in general , but I'm way more on the side of the fence that celebrates gender roles and finds them to be a great thing. This seems to put me at odds with quite a few posters who seem to find such qualities to be offensive when talked about.

I so feel the same! That is why I was a bit taken aback when the first replies to my OP, with my personal observations, appeared rather heated. I mean it was almost like I had written a long rant about how "these are feminine/masculine qualities and therefore intrinsically bad qualities".

I do still think that having a Ladies/Men division as opposed to Women/Men is silly, though

ETA: I wonder if there might be a cultural aspect to how we feel about / see these things. For example: I come from one of the (arguably) most "progressive"(liberal, hippie, leftie, you name it) countries/societies in the world. Just the other day I read in a thread either here or on FSU a comment that basically was about how "these figure skating costumes cover the obscene body parts". I found that horrifying. I went on a long rant at my husband about how there is no such thing as an "obscene" part of the body, how our bodies are perfect and functional just as they are. Of course some body parts can be presented in an obscene way in certain contexts, but I think that in themselves all our parts are absolutely fine and non-obscene. My husband just pointed out that in the culture/society of the writer of that comment, the thinking might be different due many reasons, and in any case the word itself might not be quite so negative as I have come to think. Of course he was right. (Though I still think that I am more right )

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I think WeakAnkles means the term "lady", which is pretty silly when you think about it. Like all other sports have "women's" and "men's" divisions, and figure skating has gender divisions that are still set in Victorian England....

Well.....if you spent a day at my rink you are not going to see very many "women" figure skating and especially at a competitive level. You will see mostly young girls because this sport is disproportionately a sport of young girls. I guess I will freely admit that I associate the term Women with being more mature and likely older than high school and college age females. I would have to also admit that I associate the term ladies with females of college and high school age for some reason. I guess then I would call high school and younger females girls even though that creates a bit of overlapping although...... I could probably see a case to call college aged females women.

The female sports teams at my high school wear called the Lady Bears. I never saw anything wrong that nor was a fuss ever made to my knowledge. Every definition I've seen of the term Lady/Ladies seems to strongly imply respect as a major qualifier. :yay:

Willing to be enlightened here :yes:

L-A-D-Y

 

[TMC]

Well.....if you spent a day at my rink you are not going to see very many "women" figure skating and especially at a competitive level. You will see mostly young girls because this sport is disproportionately a sport of young girls. I guess I will freely admit that I associate the term Women with being more mature and likely older than high school and college age females. I would have to also admit that I associate the term ladies with females of college and high school age for some reason. I guess then I would call high school and younger females girls even though that creates a bit of overlapping although...... I could probably see a case to call college aged females women. ****I just re-read this and I guarantee that I just added a wrinkle to my brain.

The female sports teams at my high school wear called the Lady Bears. I never saw anything wrong that nor was a fuss ever made to my knowledge. Every definition I've seen of the term Lady/Ladies seems to strongly imply respect as a major qualifier. :yay:

Willing to be enlightened here :yes:

L-A-D-Y

I get where you're coming from.

My problem is firstly that there is no reason for the sport of Figure Skating to talk about Ladies instead of Women, when all other sports talk about women. Even sports where the participants can be quite as young as in FS (gymnastics etc.)

Secondly, to me the term "Lady" has connotations of fragility, weakness, need of protection, vulnerability...all sorts of negative connotations. But very much depending on context. I can say to my friends something like "hey ladies, time to go", and it doesn't mean that I think they are just a bunch of weaker vessels. But when the word is used in an official context, like in FS terminology, it takes me back in time to the days where X Y and Z were deemed "unsuitable for ladies". So when an authority figure or institution uses that term in a serious way, it just grates me, because I don't think they have the right to determine who is a lady and who is "just a woman".

 

[Mathman]

I guess I will freely admit that I associate the term Women with being more mature and likely older than high school and college age females. I would have to also admit that I associate the term ladies with females of college and high school age for some reason…

It must be a generational thing. I am just the opposite. Any mature female person is automatically a "lady." Especially any lady who is older than I am.

The female sports teams at my high school wear called the Lady Bears. I never saw anything wrong that nor was a fuss ever made to my knowledge.

To me, that language is patronizing. Like saying there is the real football team, and then there is the Powder Puff team.

By the way, in June of this year the University of Tennessee officially changed the name of all of their women's sports teams from the "University of Tennessee Lady Volunteers" to the "University of Tennessee Volunteers Women's Team."

There was a huge outcry from alums and the public. The State Legislature jumped heatedly into the dispute. The University was forced to compromise. Now all of their women's sports team are the "Tennessee Volunteer's Women's Team," except the basketball team, who are the "Lady Vols."

(Their chief rival, the "University of Connecticut Huskies" is still affectionately known as the "Nappy-head Ho's.")

 

[cl2]

The fact that it is called "Ladies" and "Men" is downright offensive and tells you loads about how out of touch figure skating is when it comes to gender.

How about "ladies" and "gentlemen"?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I offer this story which is very relevant to the topic of discussion. One of my favorite and easily one of the most inspirational athletes I've ever seen!

Leticia Bufoni

 

[OS]

I get where you're coming from.

My problem is firstly that there is no reason for the sport of Figure Skating to talk about Ladies instead of Women, when all other sports talk about women. Even sports where the participants can be quite as young as in FS (gymnastics etc.)

Secondly, to me the term "Lady" has connotations of fragility, weakness, need of protection, vulnerability...all sorts of negative connotations. But very much depending on context. I can say to my friends something like "hey ladies, time to go", and it doesn't mean that I think they are just a bunch of weaker vessels. But when the word is used in an official context, like in FS terminology, it takes me back in time to the days where X Y and Z were deemed "unsuitable for ladies". So when an authority figure or institution uses that term in a serious way, it just grates me, because I don't think they have the right to determine who is a lady and who is "just a woman".

Heh... arn't we taking PC too far? The last time Tennis played in wimbledon, we still call it a ladies and gentlemen's sport. e.g http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/scores/results/day4.html
There's also LPGA Ladies Professional Golf Association so.... i am all for empowering woman and all that, but I'd vastly prefer it to be ladies' than women's, as it implied cultured sport rather than gender driven. This is also one of the few sport in the world, where ladies event is considered the marquee event in the Olympics, which makes it a bit special.

I blame DC Comics! For a woman to have power, she must be Super girl to be less threatening. WonderWoman on the other hand is basically Scarlett O'Hara in undergarment painted in US flag... clearly cater more for boys initially? Imagine Captain America in undergarment fighting crimes without his shield, tad ridiculous and unpractical?

 

[silverfoxes]

I always thought the word "lady" was rather cringeworthy, old-fashioned and a bit patronizing. "Women" sounds more like the proper equivalent to "men" - or "young women/men" if we are talking about teenagers. Even in my 20s, I would have rather been called a girl than a "lady"...just don't like that term at all. However, in German I like the word "Damen" (ladies) better than "Frauen" (women)...don't know why.

 

[TMC]

I offer this story which is very relevant to the topic of discussion. One of my favorite and easily one of the most inspirational athletes I've ever seen!

Leticia Bufoni

Ooh, I like her, she's so cool!

What's with the sister only taking her to skate park if she wore pink and pigtails?

 

[Mathman]

How about "ladies" and "gentlemen"?

I would prefer "ladies" and "knights."

 

[WeakAnkles]

How on earth is being a lady or a man offensive. This is a joke right?

No it's not a joke at all. People scoff at "PC," but language is a powerful force. The terms "lady" and "woman" have hugely different connotations in terms of social roles. It's a throwback to times when women were supposed to be decorous, gentle, submissive to men, polite, nurturing and the like. A far different cry from "woman," wouldn't you say? It's condescending. And it implicitly describes what characteristics the skating world wants to see in its female skaters.

And it can be played out socially as well. The Village Voice, around the time of the whole Nancy/Tonya brouhaha, did an analysis of how they were filmed (if I remember correctly--the article did extrapolate its findings more generally as well). The more traditionally "feminine" Nancy's skating was filmed using a statistically significant greater amounts of 'dissolves' rather than hard edits, dissolves being a far softer (shall I say "lady-like"?) way of moving from one filmed image to another. Tonya's featured a significantly higher number of hard edits.

It's easy to scoff at "PC" gone overboard, but don't underestimate the power of language in creating the very social roles this thread is examining.

So no, no joke. No joke at all.

 

[TMC]

Heh... arn't we taking PC too far? The last time Tennis played in wimbledon, we still call it a ladies and gentlemen's sport. e.g http://www.wimbledon.com/en_GB/scores/results/day4.html
There's also LPGA Ladies Professional Golf Association so.... i am all for empowering woman and all that, but I'd vastly prefer it to be ladies' than women's, as it implied cultured sport rather than gender driven. This is also one of the few sport in the world, where ladies event is considered the marquee event in the Olympics, which makes it a bit special.

I blame DC Comics! For a woman to have power, she must be Super girl to be less threatening. WonderWoman on the other hand is basically Scarlett O'Hara in undergarment painted in US flag... clearly cater more for boys initially? Imagine Captain America in undergarment fighting crimes without his shield, tad ridiculous and unpractical?

Yes, but in tennis they are ladies and gentlemen. Not ladies and men. It seems weird to me. Like Masters and Servants, the upstairs lady and the man downstairs

 

[Li'Kitsu]

The ladies vs. women topic is another thing I honestly never thought about - mainly because the only thing I associate with 'lady' is that it sounds prettier than woman. But that might be because english isn't my mother tongue. In german, the commentators are using both Frauen (=women) and Damen (=ladies), but I don't think Damen has the same negative associations. You usually use it with women that are older than you, but I always thought it was meant in a respectful way At least that's what my parents told me. But thinking about it, I think WeakAnkles is right.

What happened when Max did a program that was supposedly not suitable for him at all (Black Swan)? It did suit him, it made him grow as a skater and performer, and he looked fabulous. Yet Youtube and social media are full of comments about how awful the music is for him and how badly he does lyrical and so on. It went so far that there was actually a debate about whether he had been forced to use this music, and it was difficult for people to understand/believe the truth, which is that he had wanted to skate to this music for years, and he was really doing what he himself wanted. I can't believe that all of these people really genuinely don't see the improvement in Max's skating, at least in comparison to Footloose. Yet you can find comment after comment saying that the music choice is awful for Max and that the style does not suit Max. I'm afraid that the "reasoning" behind a lot of these comments - not all of them of course - is that the commentator either consciously or subconsciously feels that Max is a "masculine" skater and therefore a programme that has these lyrical qualities, which are considered to be "feminine", is not a good match for Max.

Geez, I never realized those comments are still around As somebody who isn't a fan but still likes Max a lot, I was surprised and at first skeptical about his music choices too. But he pulls it off. It's so believable that he wanted to skate to that music, because he looks really into it and has improved a lot already. Besides the masculine/feminine thing, it might also be people just not liking Max though. Some people just won't see the improvement no matter what.

I blame DC Comics! For a woman to have power, she must be Super girl to be less threatening. WonderWoman on the other hand is basically Scarlett O'Hara in undergarment painted in US flag... clearly cater more for boys initially? Imagine Captain America in undergarment fighting crimes without his shield, tad ridiculous and unpractical?

There's also SuperBoy though And hey, DC are progressive now, they also sexualize male characters! I mean, there's one who gets recognized by his butt...