Unratified technical "firsts"

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Or the other explanation is that they fail to execute in a comp because they can't do it under pressure. See, Ward, Rohene, jumping all kinds of craziness in the six minute warmup and falling on every jump in the comp.

I remain way more impressed by achievements in a comp. And if Ilia can do so when the pressure is on in front of international judges, more power to him

Until then, it's fun to see him show off in practice, but for me, that's all it is.

Yup for sure - there is definitely a more impressive aspect to doing something in competition but I understand why skaters scale back their practice jumps in competition. Especially since in competition these jumps have to be performed in the context of a program, whereas in practice the skater has the luxury of focusing specifically on the element itself and putting their energy into just that.

 

[treblemakerem]

Just for the record, since we are talking about firsts. Petrosian actually jumped a 4Lo-2T combo in competition already at a Cup of Russia event in November this year. She also went for a stand-alone 4Lo but couldn't land it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCwlRkQKq6U

I’m curious what people think about this one. I know prerotations are usually ignored but is there a rule about how much you can get away with? She does pretty much a full rotation on the ice before jumping but I don’t know if international panels will care about that any more than the nationals ones who didn’t.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I’m curious what people think about this one. I know prerotations are usually ignored but is there a rule about how much you can get away with? She does pretty much a full rotation on the ice before jumping but I don’t know if international panels will care about that any more than the nationals ones who didn’t.

There are no rules for how much you can get away with - generally the landings are what is considered. Petrosian does have considerable pre rotation but she also lands the Juno fully rotated so overall the jump has pretty sufficient rotation. But if we are sticklers for prerotation I’m sure a lot of “firsts” wouldn’t have been ratified as few skaters do then with perfect technique.

Here’s usually the unsaid PR rules - if you like the skater their PR is fine, if the skater rivals your favourite skater then they definitely deserve to get downgraded so your fave has a better chance. It also applies to GOE and PCS funny enough!

 

[4everchan]

Or the other explanation is that they fail to execute in a comp because they can't do it under pressure. See, Ward, Rohene, jumping all kinds of craziness in the six minute warmup and falling on every jump in the comp.

I remain way more impressed by achievements in a comp. And if Ilia can do so when the pressure is on in front of international judges, more power to him

Until then, it's fun to see him show off in practice, but for me, that's all it is.

yeah but see... as @CanadianSkaterGuy mentioned, nobody would be even allowed to do a 3lo-3lo-3lo combo in competition... so some of these are fun to watch and have to be done only in practice. Totally agree with you that what goes in the record books, and thus, what matters, has to be done in competition, and even better in international events... (not even talking about things that are not practical or not rewarded properly in competition like a 4X-3t-3t or 4X-3lo-3lo as it would mean that the athlete has just lost the opportunity to include a repeated jump that is worth more points)

 

[gkelly]

True, I mean I'm sure Micheal chack probably landes 4S in practice but back then they didn't video practices.

I remember a Kurt browning quote talking about rumours of quad jumps around in the 1940s circulating.

In the late 1990s, I was skimming through a book that Didier Gailhaughet had written in the 1970s. I thought he said that he had seen Ronnie Robertson landing quad loops in practice as a 30-something professional skater. But I wasn't sure that I understood the French correctly.

I mentioned this in an online forum. A poster who skated at the same rink where Robertson sometimes taught or skated before his death said he asked Robertson whether he had landed quad loops in the 1970s, and that Robertson confirmed that he had.

No video evidence, however.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

In the late 1990s, I was skimming through a book that Didier Gailhaughet had written in the 1970s. I thought he said that he had seen Ronnie Robertson landing quad loops in practice as a 30-something professional skater. But I wasn't sure that I understood the French correctly.

I mentioned this in an online forum. A poster who skated at the same rink where Robertson sometimes taught or skated before his death said he asked Robertson whether he had landed quad loops in the 1970s, and that Robertson confirmed that he had.

No video evidence, however.

I’m not surprised! Ronnie was a superb spinner and got up to allegedly 420 revs/minute! With spinning like this no wonder he was going for quads (he talked about doing the salchow too). https://youtu.be/BHJ61W579DY

 

[TontoK]

<snip>

David Jenkins triple axel 1957:

1957 - David Jenkins Triple Axel

a short newsreel in which 1960 Olympic Gold Medallist performs a huuuuge triple axel. This was 21 years before the jump was finally landed in competition.

youtu.be

I love historic footage, and I had not seen this before. Thank you!

 

[anonymoose_au]

Konstantin Menshov 4Lo in practice:

Konstantin Menshov: Quad Salchow / Quad loop / Quad toe-Triple toe / Quad toe-Quad toe attempt

youtu.be

Yeah whoo! Go old man Menshov! Love that guy

David Jenkins triple axel 1957:

1957 - David Jenkins Triple Axel

a short newsreel in which 1960 Olympic Gold Medallist performs a huuuuge triple axel. This was 21 years before the jump was finally landed in competition.

youtu.be

I was interested in this so clicked on the link only to see that not only had a liked it, but actually commented on it. LOL.

Didn't Sasha T do a pretty impressive jump combo during the Channel 1 Cup jump off? I think so but I have no idea how to find it.

I also recall Shizuka (I think?) doing like 32 2As in a row.

 

[Arbitrary]

Trusova 4Lz-Eu-3F during TV show.
Trusova 4Lz-3Lo at practice.
Dmitriev 4Ax (TV ice show) being first to stay on foot (just like Hanyu recently).

 

[eppen]

The Wikipedia page for quads actually has an ok timeline mentioning also some unratified events - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_(figure_skating)

Skate Guard did a listing of Canadian firsts which was also mentions some quads: http://skateguard1.blogspot.com/2021/03/airborne-timeline-of-canadian-jumping.html

Names to be added to the pre-Josef Sabovcik/Kurt Browning era are at least Robert Wagenhoffer (4T but practices only), Campbell Sinclair (4Lo around 1982, in nationals I think), and Mark Cockerell (4T 1981, in national competitions at least). Alexander Fadeev was the first to try a 4T in international competition in 1983. Brians trained 4Ts, but only Boitano attempted it in competition.

It is interesting that the first ratified 4S was only in 1998 (Timothy Goebel), but it has not been a very popular quad among men. It was trained for and sometimes attempted in competition before that - Michael Chack in the early 1990s is mentioned in lists of firsts for it. I have seen in mentioned in connection with Alexander Abt, Ivan Dinev, Takeshi Honda, Ilia Klimkin, and Vincent Restencourt.

The prehistory of 4Lo includes also training for it by Shepherd Clark and Timothy Goebel - these are based on their interviews and news stories. Plushenko trained it a bit later. Before Hanyu got the ratified one in the books, it was attempted in competition by Kevin Reynolds 5 times 2011-13, all with UR or downgrade (national and international). Mroz tried it 3 times in US summer competitions in 2012 and got one fully rotated, but with other problems bcs the GOE was -2.00. Gordei Gorshkov tried in a Russian national level competition in 2014 with a downgrade. Aleksei Krasnozhon tried 4 times in 2015-6 junior GPs and national level competitions, again all with URs or downgrades.

Add: Roman Serov also actually tried 4Lo in a Russian national competition in 2002 (found thanks to gkelly!).

Also 4F was trained for before Daisuke Takahashi tried it in competition: Alexander Abt and Frederic Dambier at least. (Nam Nguyen and Anton Shulepov have dabbled with it in addition to Chan and Orzel.) Takahashi tried 5 times 2009-12 in competition, but never got it fully rotated.

And the same applies for the 4Lz. The guys to train it in the 1990s are reportedly Takeshi Honda and Elvis Stojko. Maybe also Yehven Plyuta in addition to Michael Weiss for whom there is even video evidence as seen above. Plushenko tried it in competition already in 1999. Mroz was apparently the first in the IJS to try it in 2011 - I have not been able to find any attempts between these two times. Adam Rippon and Vladimir Sezganov were also going for it in 2011-2, but neither of them ever got a clean one in competition (incl. later tries).

The 4A has been discussed a lot lately and indeed, Artur Dmitriev Jr is the only one before Hanyu to try it in competition, 3 times in 2017-2019, twice in national competitions and one in an international one. All downgraded.

Nathan Chen is the only one who has done 5 quads (missing obviously 4A) in competition - his record with the 4S is a bit thin, but he tried it again this fall. And he has them all with positive GOE. Hanyu has all but 4F, but no positive GOE with 4A.

Krasnozhon and Uno have tried 4 quads, not 4Lz and 4A. Both have positive GOEs on all of them, but Krasnozhon's record remains a bit thin, Uno is going for all four this season. Boyang Jin has not tried 4F and his 4S and 4Lo are almost ancient (the last ones in 2018-9 and 2016-7 seasons, respectively), but he has also a positive GOE record for 4 different quads.

Add: OMG I forgot Vincent Zhou from the list of guys with 4 different quads with positive GOEs - he has all but 4Lo and 4A. And has tried them all this season. Sorry, Vincent!

The combinations an jumpers of 3 different quads is quite long these days, so let's forget about that.

Was not Stephen Gogolev also rumoured to have landed all 5 quads when he was still with Orser?

E

 

[4everchan]

Was not Stephen Gogolev also rumoured to have landed all 5 quads when he was still with Orser?

Not sure Stephen did it but Conrad posted his 5 quads in one day on instagram...

 

[eppen]

Not sure Stephen did it but Conrad posted his 5 quads in one day on instagram...

Not even just a rumour - reported in a news paper, now that I finally googled it... (https://www.thestar.com/sports/skat...-on-edge-of-figure-skating-stardom-at-13.html)

Another Canadian I wonder about is Michael Slipchuck. I have him on my list of pre-IJS possible quadsters and am pretty sure I saw it written in some news story or somewhere, but now just cannot find it despite multiple tries... Anyone?

I think there was also talk of Vladimir Samoilov as someone who has all the quads (minus 4A?) in practice but can barely get them out in competition (he has tried 4S, 4F and 4Lz).

E

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Not even just a rumour - reported in a news paper, now that I finally googled it... (https://www.thestar.com/sports/skat...-on-edge-of-figure-skating-stardom-at-13.html)

Another Canadian I wonder about is Michael Slipchuck. I have him on my list of pre-IJS possible quadsters and am pretty sure I saw it written in some news story or somewhere, but now just cannot find it despite multiple tries... Anyone?

I think there was also talk of Vladimir Samoilov as someone who has all the quads (minus 4A?) in practice but can barely get them out in competition (he has tried 4S, 4F and 4Lz).

E

Yes to Vladimir Samoilov, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6Dft3ycdlA
No idea about Michael but it's definitely possible.
I know multiple people who have done them before in training (once or twice, but never consistent) who just never bothered attempting in competition for a variety of reasons.
And this in under ISU, where you get credit for attempts rather than just clean jumps.
in 6.0, there was little incentive to attempt inconsistent jumps as the penalties of anything but absolute success were quite high.

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Not sure Stephen did it but Conrad posted his 5 quads in one day on instagram...

Stephen did 4S, 4T, 4Lz in competition environment. Given his 4Lz is usually a Flutz, 4F doesn't seem unreasonable in practice. Even if it had a perfect edge, 4F isn't out of this world for most 4Lz jumpers unless they have flip edge issues.
4Lo is the iffy one I question - as it's the one that requires the most strength.

 

[eppen]

I know multiple people who have done them before in training (once or twice, but never consistent) who just never bothered attempting in competition for a variety of reasons.

Would you be willing to name names and quad types? In addition to compiling data on what was done in competitions, I am interested to see what gets left on practice ice mostly to understand the process and get an idea of how much particularly the rarer types get trained and tried.

If there is any evidence (the social media clips or like are great, interviews brill also, in any language!) that is cool, but personal observations and even rumours are accepted in this category.

Applies to anyone else reading this thread!

I have been collecting the data for a couple of years now. It started with a little news piece on Brian Joubert getting recognized for 100 quads in international competition in 2013 which led me to wonder how many my beloved Javi had done. This led to comparing him to others who had done lots of quads. A thread here on GS on how many quadsters have there ever been led to collecting the list of quadsters (now 376 names). A more recent development has been collecting a list of individual jumps with scores in the IJS era - sounds more work than it is bcs there are databases which help a lot. And the latest fad was trying to find data on national competitions which is a lot of work and would not be possible without machine translators. But now, in addition to having a list of 10210 jumps and those 376 skaters, I can start looking into the data for the early quadsters and details for the skaters (like at what age they tried the first quad in competition).

E

 

[kolyadafan2002]

Would you be willing to name names and quad types? In addition to compiling data on what was done in competitions, I am interested to see what gets left on practice ice mostly to understand the process and get an idea of how much particularly the rarer types get trained and tried.

If there is any evidence (the social media clips or like are great, interviews brill also, in any language!) that is cool, but personal observations and even rumours are accepted in this category.

Applies to anyone else reading this thread!

I have been collecting the data for a couple of years now. It started with a little news piece on Brian Joubert getting recognized for 100 quads in international competition in 2013 which led me to wonder how many my beloed Javi had done. This led to comparing him to others who had done lots of quads. A thread here on GS on how many quadsters have there ever been led to collecting the list of quadsters (now 376 names). A more recent development has been collecting a list of individual jumps with scores in the IJS era - sounds more work than it is bcs there are databases which help a lot. And the latest fad was trying to find data on national competitions which is a lot of work and would not be possible without machine translators. But now, in addition to having a list of 10210 jumps and those 376 skaters, I can start looking into the data for the early quadsters and details for the skaters (like at what age they tried the first quad in competition).

E

I'm not sure I should name names, but two x 4T, two x 4S, 1 x 4Lz.
Two tried in competition, four are retired skaters - one is fairly young.
None of them ever had ratified quads.

In addition to above, I know two people who have gotten 4T to <<, and one to 4Lo< on practice. These are all a variety of international skaters, those ones also retired.

I have video evidence of 3 of the quad toes (two clean, one << from different skaters) and a quad salchow. The rest I witnessed in person and have no footage. I cannot share the footage without permission of the skaters, or revealing who they are.

BTW, unrelated but since you mentioned Javi, there is a video of him cleanly landing 4Lo in practice which is interesting.

It's important to note that quads take a lot of energy to train, and are very hard on the body. To get consistent, many skaters end up causing permanent damage to their bodies. And with timing of triples, its possible to land when a bit off. On quads, it's very difficult when you mistime jumps.

 

[eppen]

Thanks! Though now I am ofc more curious than ever of who they are

Javi I have covered extensively - there are two clips of him doing the 4Lo, the one from practices in 2012 and then another from Fantasy on Ice 2016 jumpoff at the end of one show. That one maybe without much practice leading to it. I think he was thinking of maybe adding that to his jumps as I am pretty sure he was trying some halfheartedly at the gala practices at GPF 2016 in Marseilles. I have also heard said that he would have had all the quads (minus 4A ofc) at a fairly early age, but no evidence has ever materialized for 4F or 4Lz. The first clip of him doing a quad is a 4S from 2008 worlds practices and he only added that to his jumps in competition in the worlds 2011. 4T he started with in 2009. (Add: And indeed, I have EVERY one of his 162 quads in international competition on video. Most of the nationals, too.)

Also found my evidence for Slipchuck, clips of quad attempts in the Olympics. Juhuu, happy day!

E

 

[lariko]

The Wikipedia page for quads actually has an ok timeline mentioning also some unratified events - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_(figure_skating)

Skate Guard did a listing of Canadian firsts which was also mentions some quads: http://skateguard1.blogspot.com/2021/03/airborne-timeline-of-canadian-jumping.html

Names to be added to the pre-Josef Sabovcik/Kurt Browning era are at least Robert Wagenhoffer (4T but practices only), Campbell Sinclair (4Lo around 1982, in nationals I think), and Mark Cockerell (4T 1981, in national competitions at least). Alexander Fadeev was the first to try a 4T in international competition in 1983. Brians trained 4Ts, but only Boitano attempted it in competition.

It is interesting that the first ratified 4S was only in 1998 (Timothy Goebel), but it has not been a very popular quad among men. It was trained for and sometimes attempted in competition before that - Michael Chack in the early 1990s is mentioned in lists of firsts for it. I have seen in mentioned in connection with Alexander Abt, Ivan Dinev, Takeshi Honda, Ilia Klimkin, and Vincent Restencourt.

The prehistory of 4Lo includes also training for it by Shepherd Clark and Timothy Goebel - these are based on their interviews and news stories. Plushenko trained it a bit later. Before Hanyu got the ratified one in the books, it was attempted in competition by Kevin Reynolds 5 times 2011-13, all with UR or downgrade (national and international). Mroz tried it 3 times in US summer competitions in 2012 and got one fully rotated, but with other problems bcs the GOE was -2.00. Gordei Gorshkov tried in a Russian national level competition in 2014 with a downgrade. Aleksei Krasnozhon tried 4 times in 2015-6 junior GPs and national level competitions, again all with URs or downgrades.

Also 4F was trained for before Daisuke Takahashi tried it in competition: Alexander Abt and Frederic Dambier at least. (Nam Nguyen and Anton Shulepov have dabbled with it in addition to Chan and Orzel.) Takahashi tried 5 times 2009-12 in competition, but never got it fully rotated.

And the same applies for the 4Lz. The guys to train it in the 1990s are reportedly Takeshi Honda and Elvis Stojko. Maybe also Yehven Plyuta in addition to Michael Weiss for whom there is even video evidence as seen above. Plushenko tried it in competition already in 1999. Mroz was apparently the first in the IJS to try it in 2011 - I have not been able to find any attempts between these two times. Adam Rippon and Vladimir Sezganov were also going for it in 2011-2, but neither of them ever got a clean one in competition (incl. later tries).

The 4A has been discussed a lot lately and indeed, Artur Dmitriev Jr is the only one before Hanyu to try it in competition, 3 times in 2017-2019, twice in national competitions and one in an international one. All downgraded.

Nathan Chen is the only one who has done 5 quads (missing obviously 4A) in competition - his record with the 4S is a bit thin, but he tried it again this fall. And he has them all with positive GOE. Hanyu has all but 4F, but no positive GOE with 4A.

Krasnozhon and Uno have tried 4 quads, not 4Lz and 4A. Both have positive GOEs on all of them, but Krasnozhon's record remains a bit thin, Uno is going for all four this season. Boyang Jin has not tried 4F and his 4S and 4Lo are almost ancient (the last ones in 2018-9 and 2016-7 seasons, respectively), but he has also a positive GOE record for 4 different quads.

Add: OMG I forgot Vincent Zhou from the list of guys with 4 different quads with positive GOEs - he has all but 4Lo and 4A. And has tried them all this season. Sorry, Vincent!

The combinations an jumpers of 3 different quads is quite long these days, so let's forget about that.

Was not Stephen Gogolev also rumoured to have landed all 5 quads when he was still with Orser?

E

I am as always blown away by your following the quads. Do you have a blog/page about it?

 

[eppen]

I am as always blown away by your following the quads. Do you have a blog/page about it?

Thanks, it is a weird but fun hobby There is no blog or webpage yet, but I am working towards it! I have come up with a name now and some other stuff I can put there, so hopefully one day!

It is just that writing about all the stuff I have researched in FS like this, unofficially, is one thing, but putting it out in a somewhat more formal format makes me want to improve the quantity and quality of the data etc. And it takes always a bit of time to do that...

E

 

[lariko]

Thanks, it is a weird but fun hobby There is no blog or webpage yet, but I am working towards it! I have come up with a name now and some other stuff I can put there, so hopefully one day!

It is just that writing about all the stuff I have researched in FS like this, unofficially, is one thing, but putting it out in a somewhat more formal format makes me want to improve the quantity and quality of the data etc. And it takes always a bit of time to do that...

E

Please, please send me the link as soon as it’s up! I absolutely adore your posts and I can see how you already have those sections by how well your data organized and presented. It would be good if some of those FS fan artists could illustrate…

All Quads, Great and Small or Quad Titans is all I can think of the top of my head