Yuzuru Hanyu: 2014-15 Season

[Lindacrow]

Now that I think about it, I can't remember ever seeing Yuzu doing a 4T3T in a program before, I know he can do it since it was in the original layout of his FS this season but I sounds odd to me since Im so used to seeing him do single quads (or if you count the 4T-3A-3A-3A :agree

 

[matmuh]

wow great to see thread moved up couple pages , its been quiet lately since there is no news about him

i agree sometimes (honestly just in COC actually) he is overscored but not to extent that he would lose the competition or his placement, its not like he just burst into the scene and started to get high PSC, he is one of the most consistent skaters (yes he fall sometimes but compared to other skaters he is consistent ), constantly improved and upped his TES along the way, and thats one of the key points to get high PCS, for example they said misha was underscored this year (and i love him), but when you think about it its his 1st season that he has been this consistent and his PCS is getting better each competition. i just hope people will realize all the good qualities about him even if they dont like him and stop being so hard on him

and i do hope he adds 3T to his quad if he is planning to go back to his original layout for his SP at worlds,i understand that he didnt last year but he has nothing to lose this year cause both in 2nd half and if it doesnt work out he can add it to 3Lz, and i think his 4S is better already but it was such and unfortunate year he didnt have a chance to show it

 

[oriquey]

Now that I think about it, I can't remember ever seeing Yuzu doing a 4T3T in a program before, I know he can do it since it was in the original layout of his FS this season but I sounds odd to me since Im so used to seeing him do single quads (or if you count the 4T-3A-3A-3A :agree

I think the 4T3T was used in his 2011-2012 Etude SP but was it very inconsistent that he always moved the triple into a combo later whenever he failed to nail it early in the program.

EDIT: Come to think of it, I've never seen him landing it successfully in comp...only in the practice or warm-up. The nearest was a 4T2T during the WC in 2012.

 

[Meoima]

3A combos are not allowed in SP. Actually I think waiting with combo in short even for 3lz to the end is higher risk than 4T3T. Because you are going to attempt 4T anyway, and if you will land good 4T that's not big deal for this top skaters to add 3T to this

Gezz I forgot about the rule in SP.
Mah... I don't think he should use 4T3T since it's riskier than solo quad. He didn't had reliable 4T3T when he was 16-17. Maybe he should pay more attention to it now.

 

[Esopian]

A healthy Yuzuru and Patrick are only ones I think may do that constantly among top and 'old' skaters. Javi is also good at least better than others I think. We call Yuzuru "the King of GOE" as jokes but it is true that he did very well in all his jumps except for the ones he fell during GPF and Nationals. Other skaters finished the jumps, but yuzuru killed them, flying high and going far, with stable rotating axis, beautifully landed, right with the music.

Great comment! I love your point about Yuzu's jumps because they are absolutely beautiful to watch (on screen), imagine watching it live! There will always be critics, and with them he can just get stronger by their own opinions. :yes:

He gets high GOE because his spins and jumps and steps are all performed on a high level. Tell me who jumps more beautifully than Yuzuru at the moment?
Han Yan's jumps are long but not as high, and he's been injured/ill so many times this season. Javi's jumps are powerful but he rotates slower. Voronov's jumps are high but he telegraphs his jumps a lot. Kovtun's jumps are high but not easy to the eyes at all.And as some posters who has analyzed all top skaters' jump recently in the reference forum, Yuzuru's jumps indeed are the highest in average (same height in quads as Javi who people assumes to have more power, some triples are higher). And let's not forget about Yuzuru's landing when he's on.
Not to mention his spins aren't just so so like Javi. He has excellent spins, fast and well-centered most of the time.
Regard of PCS, among the top men at GPF, people who have seen him live confirmed that he has great ice coverage, with lightness and beautiful stroking sound (report from Twitter and many posters). Yes his posture is not ideal but people are exaggerating a lot, he doesn't slouch all the time, he actually has good positions in jumps, spins and steps... As some Japanese documentary has pointed out, his upper body's angle was 45 degree when existing his jump, the smallest among all medalists in Sochi. So to say him has terrible posture is just wrong.
People can like his artistry or dislike, it depends on their taste I have no opinion, but statistic and comments from people who have watched him live don't lie. Some posters have showed article/research saying that Yuzuru's statistics (like speed, ice coverage...) are only behind Patrick Chan. And that was from last season. This season he has improved A LOT. And I am not even taking into account his terrible condition at all.

Wow! @Meoima, you practically wrote an essay! You included all the facts/info to prove your point and I enjoyed reading it a lot. Thanks for posting something so informative! I like where this whole discussion is going, especially because there hasn't been any recent competitions(that he competed in) and the thread was moving quite slow. It's good that Yuzu can get some time for himself and rest/train without media attention. I've written this countless of times, but I'm excited for Patrick to come back next season so the "Hanyu vs. Chan" rivalry can commence again!

 

[HanDomi]

Gezz I forgot about the rule in SP.
Mah... I don't think he should use 4T3T since it's riskier than solo quad. He didn't had reliable 4T3T when he was 16-17. Maybe he should pay more attention to it now.

4T3T is not riskier for him than solo quad. He has so perfect landing and speed from it, that he can pretty easily throw there 3T

 

[Meoima]

Wow! @Meoima, you practically wrote an essay! You included all the facts/info to prove your point and I enjoyed reading it a lot. Thanks for posting something so informative! I like where this whole discussion is going, especially because there hasn't been any recent competitions(that he competed in) and the thread was moving quite slow. It's good that Yuzu can get some time for himself and rest/train without media attention. I've written this countless of times, but I'm excited for Patrick to come back next season so the "Hanyu vs. Chan" rivalry can commence again!

All the info I have collected from this thread, the reference thread, Patrick's thread. I remember at Skate Canada last season they said Patrick speed into the quad was the fastest, and Yuzuru trailed right after him. Then there's Japanese documentary about Yuzuru's jump at Sochi. I DO NOT think he's the best in everything. However, his level in all aspects are certainly very high, whether it's spin, step, jump and speed. I don't know if he can reach the SS level of PChiddy BUT he certainly can and will improve even better than his current level . The most that I concern is his health IMO.

About his posture, there's this comment from the other forum by a ballet fan which I think is very relevant.

I wouldn't call him a sloucher, and I wouldn't say he has bad body lines either.
He's been gifted with an incredible body, his lines are natural and most skaters would kill to have his natural long arms and neck; he has all he needs to be a dancer (on ice). But yes, from the waist up he isn't always pleasant: first of all it's his shoulders, then his arms (but he's been working on that, to me he has improved) and then his head. He'd have great benefits from ballet, he could fix every little imperfection.
He has "the ultimate body", he should capitalise on his unique qualities.

I think people who criticize his posture and extension do have their point, I agree with them. It would be great if he had the posture of, for example, Robin Cousins. But he's obviously no disaster.

4T3T is not riskier for him than solo quad. He has so perfect landing and speed from it, that he can pretty easily throw there 3T

He did 4T3T was in an ice show when he was 16 or 17. And he had a turn out.
We have seen him did 4T2T in practice. I didn't remember he did a 4T3T in practice at CoC???

 

[Wo|flax]

He gets high GOE because his spins and jumps and steps are all performed on a high level. Tell me who jumps more beautifully than Yuzuru at the moment?
Han Yan's jumps are long but not as high, and he's been injured/ill so many times this season. Javi's jumps are powerful but he rotates slower. Voronov's jumps are high but he telegraphs his jumps a lot. Kovtun's jumps are high but not easy to the eyes at all. And as some posters who has analyzed all top skaters' jump recently in the reference forum, Yuzuru's jumps indeed are the highest in average (same height in quads as Javi who people assumes to have more power, some triples are higher). And let's not forget about Yuzuru's landing when he's on.
Not to mention his spins aren't just so so like Javi. He has excellent spins, fast and well-centered most of the time.
Regard of PCS, among the top men at GPF, people who have seen him live confirmed that he has great ice coverage, with lightness and beautiful stroking sound (report from Twitter and many posters). Yes his posture is not ideal but people are exaggerating a lot, he doesn't slouch all the time, he actually has good positions in jumps, spins and steps... As some Japanese documentary has pointed out, his upper body's angle was 45 degree when existing his jump, the smallest among all medalists in Sochi. So to say him has terrible posture is just wrong.
People can like his artistry or dislike, it depends on their taste I have no opinion, but statistic and comments from people who have watched him live don't lie. Some posters have showed article/research saying that Yuzuru's statistics (like speed, ice coverage...) are only behind Patrick Chan. And that was from last season. This season he has improved A LOT. And I am not even taking into account his terrible condition at all.

:agree:

About 4S: maybe I'm being too optimistic, but, lets start with last season: he was only 19, if it was some other lower ranked skater, I think we wouldn't be freaking out or writing the 4S off already, just because they didn't have a second quad consistent at 19. and he did land it at world's. This season has not been so good to get a clear picture because of his condition, but when he was at his best condition, at GPF, he did land it. I just think writing it off now as hopeless is jumping the gun a little.

4T3T: he is no longer 16/17 He gets 3+ or almost 3+ with the solo 4T though, and I think the judges might not give him that with combo. But definitely for the LP it might be nice.
ETA: Didn't one of the newsfeeds from when he revealed his LP have a 4T3T? That's why an entire discussion started about the 4T3T vs 3A3T happened at the time*memories Is that what you mean by him doing one in practice or do you mean in a competition practice?

 

[oriquey]

I didn't see a 4T3T at the COC practice, too. The last 4T3T I remember seeing in practice was during 2012 World Championships (?) I think it had full rotation but I could be wrong:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWAPiAyJpxg

EDIT: Lol...he nailed the combo in front of BOrser

 

[Rissa]

We have seen him did 4T2T in practice. I didn't remember he did a 4T3T in practice at CoC???

I don't think his current layout allows for a 4T3T due to the zayak rule? He already has one 4T so that makes 2 4Ts, and he's got two 3As, so that's it as far as he can go with repeating jumps from the triple/quadraple bracket. He can't have that 3T because he's got one in the 3A3T combo and that would make 3 repeated jumps.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, though.

I think in his plan to constantly up his tech content he will add a 4Lo to the program as his 3rd quad and not drop the incosistent 3S so that he can max out on triples.

 

[matmuh]

I don't think his current layout allows for a 4T3T due to the zayak rule? He already has one 4T so that makes 2 4Ts, and he's got two 3As, so that's it as far as he can go with repeating jumps from the triple/quadraple bracket. He can't have that 3T because he's got one in the 3A3T combo and that would make 3 repeated jumps.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, though.

I think in his plan to constantly up his tech content he will add a 4Lo to the program as his 3rd quad and not drop the incosistent 3S so that he can max out on triples.

i think meoima meant for the SP not LP, and i am happy we as yuzuru fans can stay objective(i think we are ) and still criticize his short comings and things that he can improve on

 

[Eloyse]

If it's SP, then I guess, 4t and 3lz3t might be better than 4t3t and 3lz. I'm very bad at technical stuffs so I could be wrong. However, I think skaters are required to do steps before entering a single jump, right? There are skaters who are not strong in 4t or 4s or steps so they choose to do combo instead of a single quad. In addition, I have the impression that goe on a triple jump cannot exceed 2.1. So if you consider entrance and exit, and goe related to these elements, 4t and 3lz3t actually maximizes yuzuru's score. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[HanDomi]

Yes, many skaters can't do quad from steps so that's why they do quad combo. I think Yuzuru in future will replace 4S with 4Lo, he seems to have much better connection already with quad loop than he had with 4S at the beginning, but hopefully they will not rush too fast

 

[matmuh]

If it's SP, then I guess, 4t and 3lz3t might be better than 4t3t and 3lz. I'm very bad at technical stuffs so I could be wrong. However, I think skaters are required to do steps before entering a single jump, right? There are skaters who are not strong in 4t or 4s or steps so they choose to do combo instead of a single quad. In addition, I have the impression that goe on a triple jump cannot exceed 2.1. So if you consider entrance and exit, and goe related to these elements, 4t and 3lz3t actually maximizes yuzuru's score. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

actually BV of jumps remain the same since both of the jumps are in 2nd half (considering he is gonna go for original layout), and GOE wont affect it as long as both are clean, but if he decides to to do 4T in 1st half and 3A, 3Lz3T in 2nd half then you are right, i think he already does some footwork before every jump so adding 3T to quad might be beneficial since he had trouble with Lz this season, but who knows maybe its better already

 

[Meoima]

If it's SP, then I guess, 4t and 3lz3t might be better than 4t3t and 3lz. I'm very bad at technical stuffs so I could be wrong. However, I think skaters are required to do steps before entering a single jump, right? There are skaters who are not strong in 4t or 4s or steps so they choose to do combo instead of a single quad. In addition, I have the impression that goe on a triple jump cannot exceed 2.1. So if you consider entrance and exit, and goe related to these elements, 4t and 3lz3t actually maximizes yuzuru's score. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

Considering that he broke the 100 barrier I'd say obviously his current SP layout works the best for him.
Maybe next season he will have 2 quad in the short, if so only 4T2T is enough. Since 4T3T is too risky.

 

[HanDomi]

Considering that he broke the 100 barrier I'd say obviously his current SP layout works the best for him.
Maybe next season he will have 2 quad in the short, if so only 4T2T is enough. Since 4T3T is too risky.

There is no point in making two quads in SP and doing 4T2T instead of 4T3T. If he will go in future for 2 quads in SP he will be doing 4-3.

 

[Eloyse]

actually BV of jumps remain the same since both of the jumps are in 2nd half (considering he is gonna go for original layout), and GOE wont affect it as long as both are clean, but if he decides to to do 4T in 1st half and 3A, 3Lz3T in 2nd half then you are right, i think he already does some footwork before every jump so adding 3T to quad might be beneficial since he had trouble with Lz this season, but who knows maybe its better already

Maybe he can't do beautiful lz from connecting steps, maybe that's why he chose to avoid single 3lz in sp:hopelessness:but I believe this problem is only temporary, not permanent.

 

[Fer]

To replace his quad Salchow, I think he will have a better chance with Lutz
Am I crazy?

 

[Eloyse]

actually BV of jumps remain the same since both of the jumps are in 2nd half (considering he is gonna go for original layout), and GOE wont affect it as long as both are clean, but if he decides to to do 4T in 1st half and 3A, 3Lz3T in 2nd half then you are right, i think he already does some footwork before every jump so adding 3T to quad might be beneficial since he had trouble with Lz this season, but who knows maybe its better already

By the way, if we compare 3a|4t 3lz3t and 3a|4t3t 3lz, assuming he skates clean, I think he's more likely to receive higher GOE in the first layout than the second layout, because of his weakness in lz and strength in t. But the reality is maybe he's more likely to fall in the first layout, so I don't know which is better:hopelessness:

 

[matmuh]

By the way, if we compare 3a|4t 3lz3t and 3a|4t3t 3lz, assuming he skates clean, I think he's more likely to receive higher GOE in the first layout than the second layout, because of his weakness in lz and strength in t. But the reality is maybe he's more likely to fall in the first layout, so I don't know which is better:hopelessness:

it depends on the day really, each competition is different, one day he falls on quad and nails 3lz3t (worlds), one day he does amazing quad and falls on lutz, but in theory both layouts are the same and i dont think judges think " ohh yuzuru isnt good at lutz so lets award him and give high GOE when he does it clean" , on the contrary they seem to reward harder elements and 4T3T is harder to do, but then again its subjective so you never know how judges will give him