2015-16 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[Mrs. P]

I think geogia meant Nathan?

Anyway I have nothing against Jason Brown personally, but I do think he has been over valued by default of his standing with the US federation than his ability. Likability, popularity shouldn't affect the marks too much, but seems particularly applies to him in this case, more than any skaters internationally. When that happens, this ceased to be a competitive sport but some sort of popularity contest. Take his PCS and based on those programs, is he really Jeremy Abbott good? Adam Rippon good? Josh? Hanyu? Patrick? Talent, skating skill, musicality, interpretation, would you really put above any of them? Why does the mark say otherwise, especially at home?

While I won't deny he has some good quality to his skating but he is just a good junior who has been coasting on his River Dance success. He is far from complete in his artistic endeavours (as well as tech) to warrant that level of PCS scoring he has been gifted at US Nationals right at start. While everyone else trodding away for years risking their quads never got the break they needed to progress internationally. How can anyone not look at these marks for a Junior skater/program and take these scores seriously? He made Maxim look undermarked! That is just crazy and embarrassing. .

One could also consider now Jason got the PCS pull internationally was due to the absence of Abbott as the perceived US Leading man, who have always been better received and respected internationally.

There are many ways to be successful in the sport aside from upping jump difficulty. And it's been well documented that Jason, too, has been working on the quad. His team just chose not to risk putting it into competition until recently. Why should anyone hold it against him or his team for choosing a different path to success? In any sport -- and life in general -- there is more than one way to be successful.

And also regarding the whole Riverdance thing -- that was a product of hard work too. I remember bumping into Jordan Moeller at 2014 Nationals prior to the Gala and complementing him on his recent silver at the Junior level. I then made some chit-chat regarding Jason (the FS was earlier that day) and Jordan's first comment was -- "I am really happy for him. He really worked hard for this."

In the TSL interview -- Kori Ade noted some unideal conditions that Jordan and Jason worked under leading up to 2014 Nationals including mushy ice, cold rink, etc. Kori also notes that Jason is a hard worker and he has been relentless about getting the quad. So I think it's a bit much to accuse Jason of coasting on previous success.

As to whether he is Jeremy Abbott in PCS? That's the eye to the beholder, i.e judges. Having seen both of them compete against each other -- I'd say that Jeremy has better skating skills (ice coverage, speed) but Jason strength is on the performance/transitions side.

Regarding Nathan: He reminds me a lot of Patrick Chan. He is not an extroverted performer like Jason is. As I've said, he does have good skating skills and transitions. And of course the jumps at this point. When he was younger, I believe he performed more (his Novice and first junior champs program are good examples). I think in the last few years with his injuries, he's been focus on getting through his programs. At Boston, I remember being quite impressed with his technical ability and his skating, but there was more to be desired regarding performing the programs, i.e. projection to the audience.

I think it's clear we all have our favorites and that our favorites have strengths and weaknesses and they all work hard. I think to be successful in such a deep field like this U.S. men's field, nobody can afford to coast on any previous season's success.

 

[StitchMonkey]

2010: “Peter and the Wolf”
2011: “Stereo Hearts”
2012: “Praeludium and Allegro”
2012 “Three Musketeers“
2015 “Michael Jackson”

Well i watched them... or tried at least and have to say that they reaffirmed el henry' view point in my eyes. He looks like he is doing a very good job of doing what he was told to do to me. I see no joy or real personal desire to be on the ice. I saw a small smile at the start of the first video, but that is about it. I will grant that there were some signs of acting ability that I don't think is being displayed this year and maybe should be. Maybe he needs to take a page of out Jason's book and embrace what some call camp. I thought Footloose was a good idea when i first heard about it last year, but because Max never got comfortable with it, it never worked. That is about how i am feeling about Nathan's Smooth Criminal... great idea that does not work because the skater is not feeling it.

Nathan just never looks like he wants to be on the ice. Maybe after he gets some skates under his belt injury free we will see some joy. I did actually get to see Nathan earlier this summer in person at the Broadmoore open - in fact Nathan was one of the reason I wanted to go, because I wanted to see him, and to be honest I was a bit let down. He just did not grab me or do anything to make me think he has any passion for skating. And no it is not his Asian-ness, he actually has a great smile. The only time i saw it was when he was high fiveing some fans in the audience though. So I will give him credit for being good to his fans, but at the same time, the smile does exist, he is not smileless he does not have an excuse to not use it. Put that smile on the ice a bit more and he might connect with more people.

That being said, he is still very talented and I would still put him in the great potential category, but he has to find what works for him and why he is on the ice and he needs to make us feel his passion for his skating. As long as he looks and feels like he is going through the motions, he will likely have those that are not crazy about him.

I see Nathan right now as like a wine that people are really excited about but has just been bottled. He needs time to develop and that development cannot be rushed. I feel like half of skating is trying to pop his cork and drink him RIGHT NOW!!!! while some of us want to give him a little more time to age before evaluating the wine. A wine that could be really great if aged properly, is not likely to be so great if you get impatient and break into it too soon - but it will still get you drunk!

I am certainly not writing Nathan off, but I am not buying a ticket on the hype train yet... just keeping an eye on the schedule and the available seats right now.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Agreed! Here is the thing. In many people's mind only Jason deserves the honor!

I would hope not. Jason doesn't even have a quad, so if people think he's the only one deserving, then that's a low standard for the top US man. Brown is living up to his artistic potential (and thus getting pretty generous PCS even without quad attempts in international competition last year), but that quad is a huge barrier (as lovely or as entertaining or as special as his programs are, they're simply not yet a competitive calibre with no quad and an inconsistent 3A). While Brown's strength is artistry, I actually think Farris is a better balance in terms of technical ability and artistry, and Max is more towards the technical side, Dornbush is also balanced but not consistent, Rippon is being a bit of a late bloomer but still needs a stronger quad, Jeremy was always strong artistically but inconsistent.

Chen is the first US skater in a while to deliver strong artistry and land all the jumps. When was the last time a male US skater delivered a clean 2 quad 2 axel program? Heck, I'd settle for a US guy even being able to do 1 quad and 2 triple axels.

I do agree with those saying Chen needs to still improve artistically a lot... his skating is very neat and has good edges and interpretation, but he's not emotionally as in tune with his programs as I'm sure he will eventually be. Comparing him to Nam, I think Nam doesn't skate as big as Chen, but has greater projection and shows confidence. Still both skaters are "Just another day at the office" type skaters who are strong competitors that can throw clean programs but still have to develop their performance abilities.

 

[apgold]

Interesting discussion here. My 2 cents:

I am a fan of many of the men, including Jason, Nathan, Adam, Josh, Max, Ricky, etc and can appreciate each for their athleticism, artistry or both. I just think we're talking about Nathan b/c he's happening now and there's not a lot else (except for Vincent Zhou who's also doing pretty well so far). We'll be discussing the other guys as the season progresses and we'll see where the chips fall.

Nathan is only 16 and can develop his artistry and projection to the audience, as well as getting his level 4 spins. If he stays healthy over the next quad, I think he will be able to rack up some more major titles by the time he's 20.

Clearly the jumps are what he likes doing (he's said so in interviews) and we know he's got a consistent quad. Nathan also has the advantage of internationally being a junior and competing right now so he's the bright shiny object who even has his own hashtag on Twitter (#slaythan). Some of his fellow skaters (including Gracie Gold) were talking about his JGP performance and were impressed how he slayed the competition (hence the hashtag). I think if his peers are excited by him, he's someone to keep an eye on.

 

[Ice Dance]

Take his PCS and based on those programs, is he really Jeremy Abbott good? Adam Rippon good? Josh? Hanyu? Patrick?

Yes, I would put Jason above all of them on PCS. I would. Not everyone would. For me, it's Denis. Then Jason. Then maybe even Dennis (I've seen all of 1 set of performances by him, and I'm blown away; but I haven't seen him live so I can't tell his speed). Then the rest of the world. (Kozuka's pretty high on my list). I greatly miss Machida & Takahashi & Yagudin, but there's no point comparing current competitors to those who are no longer competing.

I find Mrs. P's Patrick & Nathan comparisons interesting because one thing I thought when I read el henry's comments was "That is exactly how I feel about Patrick Chan." And I have to say my sympathies to anyone who feels this way about a top notch competitive skater because I have watched Patrick win three world titles & an Olympic silver medal. It doesn't make an ounce of difference how I feel about Patrick's performance ability. The people who judge his programs love it.

I enjoy Nathan's skating. I think he has spark. I think he hears his music, and I've seen him skate to quite a variety. I like his free program selection. It certainly isn't as fully choreographed or perfected as his short from last season; but I think the free music gives Nathan room to grow. It's wonderful music, and it's certainly a challenge. He may not reach it, but I do think he will be a better skater in the future for making the attempt. I fully agreed with John's Coughlin's comment about the benefits of using two different looks on the ice. I also agree that there's a lot of empty skating between the jumps throughout this program. For me the footwork sequence is definitely the strongest portion, and I wish some of it's intricacies could be incorporated earlier. Would I rather see Deniss (or gosh knows, DENIS) skate to this music? Oh, yes. But I would far rather see Nathan skate to it than to Adagio for Tron or--say--a Beatles medley. Sigh.

 

[OS]

Well i watched them... or tried at least and have to say that they reaffirmed el henry' view point in my eyes. He looks like he is doing a very good job of doing what he was told to do to me. I see no joy or real personal desire to be on the ice. I saw a small smile at the start of the first video, but that is about it. I will grant that there were some signs of acting ability that I don't think is being displayed this year and maybe should be. Maybe he needs to take a page of out Jason's book and embrace what some call camp. I thought Footloose was a good idea when i first heard about it last year, but because Max never got comfortable with it, it never worked. That is about how i am feeling about Nathan's Smooth Criminal... great idea that does not work because the skater is not feeling it.

Nathan just never looks like he wants to be on the ice. Maybe after he gets some skates under his belt injury free we will see some joy. I did actually get to see Nathan earlier this summer in person at the Broadmoore open - in fact Nathan was one of the reason I wanted to go, because I wanted to see him, and to be honest I was a bit let down.

Urghh...sorry, but this is the exact sort of rubbish that used to put down Yuna Kim's performances (how can she be cold, subdued and unfeeling in Kiss of a vampire, why can't she look she is happy, passionate, smiling vampire victim to show she really loves it, want to win, want to be there? lol... as if such thing ever exist in the history of vampires/vampire victims portrayal! Especially with such dramatic dark music. WTH!!? ) Basically things that has nothing to do with figure skating skills, techniques, PCS judging criteria or real understanding of what the program is about or the direction of the interpretation. Why should the winner always display joy, passion, smile to the audience, act like they love it, wanting to be there, crying, flirting and smiling their eyes out, even to act camp for the sake of universal appeal to the lowest level audience understanding, without considering the program they are trying deliver. Might as well call him some robot now, a machine with no personality already. You might want to talk about wine, but seems you only ever want to taste pop with extra artificial colours and flavourings.

Besides, are you seriously telling me listening to Nathan's SaintSaens, you think campiness is the right interpretation? What about Jason's 'Scent of love' FS? Should he maybe hold a red rose between this teeth in the beginning to make it REALLY obvious, then proceed to 'smell it' before 'tossing it' to the judging panel, then spend the rest of the performance act like a love lost love sick puppy dog, with tears streaming down his cheek at the end to show he is REALLY feeling it? LOL... no wonder we disagree. You must also be a huge fan of Maxim's FS this year then!

Finally, of course it takes passion, dedication, and even joy to work as hard as any elite top skater does, especially those with injuries to over coming them, and especially those who were able to up the ante and deliver them when it count. While I do understand many people are touched by Jason's story and in particularly wanting success for his excellent team. Having watched the charismatic and vivacious Kori Ade interview at TSL, I too wanted to root for her team, however, it is also important to assess things critically and recognise things for what they are vs what they are implied, vs what they should be.

In any case, I watch skating primarily for the programs rather than the skater. Not all Abbott's, Daisuke or even Patrick's work are great successes, but they do try to keep pushing themselves over the years experimenting trying, improving and developing, it is what earned and justified their PCS, even when tech may have failed them on the day. Jason's last season work were unimpressive (except FS outing at WC), but this season's FS is worth following up to see how he progresses.


Re: Ice Dance
Regarding the PCS ranking, I couldn't disagree more. Lets just leave it to that. Denis is making great strides towards being an artistic skater which I admire, I think hanging around Stephane Lambiel for years may have nourished his artistic temperament substantially.

 

[musicfan80]

I have been watching the back and forth on this thread for a couple of days now and I wanted to wait before I put my word in here.

I love the U.S. men right now. I think it is the most exciting and unpredictable discipline in the U.S. right now with the number and variety of great skaters. And I love that there are so many up and coming men - including Nathan.

But shouldn't we calm down here? It is only September - I have no idea what will happen at U.S. Nationals. I will still have no idea what will happen in early January. And I think that is a great thing. As an American, I think it would be a bad sign it if we were sitting here talking about the "three definite skaters who will be going to worlds" - in September.

Think about it - where were we last fall? TSL (I am skeptical of some of their analysis) was talking about Ricky Dornbush potentially winning Nationals. Did anybody think that Adam was going to skate that long program as well as he did? I didn't. After NHK Trophy, many of us would have bet serious money that Joshua wouldn't even win another pewter medal, much less finish 3rd at U.S. Nationals, get a silver at 4CCs, and compete at his first worlds.

I think the criticisms said here of Jason Brown are valid - as much as I like his positive attitude (especially of his competitors - the best example is his attitude towards Joshua - I hated the Johnny vs. Evan era), I can't get into his presentation. Last season, I found it hard to believe he is a month older than Joshua. I think that he absolutely deserved his success last season. But he needs to increase his jump game and look more mature.

I also see where Nathan needs to improve with his transitions and presentation. But he is sixteen and it is great that he is this good right now. I love that he is attempting quad jumps and even landing them. I am assuming his growth spurt is finished but if his technique is solid it shouldn't be a problem if he gets much taller.

Right now, despite having my favorites (Joshua, Ricky, Adam), the only thing I will wish for right now is for all the top U.S. men to show up in St. Paul healthy and have skates that they are proud of.

 

[Tavi...]

I think you misunderstood my point entirely. I was saying the opposite infact. (You do realise I am Asian, and actually this stereotype has been the worst reason to justify lower PCS for some of my fav skaters) I completely frown upon these stereotype that Asian don't emote as well so shouldn't receive high PCS (which seems to be a view propagated among a few include Liz Manley), while something obvious like a Jason Brown's gimmicky choreography program get revered as the second coming of US figure skating is very funny to me.

Bear in mind when Jason was in teens junior->senior in the same year Hanyu with his world record breaking SP only received 43 PCS at Japanese Nationals (already inflated), Patrick Chan 44 (Canadian Nationals '12), Maxim with the humongous piss take inflation from Russian Nationals only received 43.90, here's Jason with one of the most hokey gimmicky programs got 44+. As a Junior>Senior had the 2nd highest ever SP score in US National history with PCS that has been marked higher than multiple world champions, world record breakers at their own inflated nationals. A difference of 79.75 at Skate America vs 93.36 at US Nationals. While inflation can be expected, this has to take the cake.

So it will be interesting to see how much inflation Nathan Chen get by US Nationals on a relative basis, does he get equal treatment, especially he is just as consistent with 2 quads and they are pretty decent programs. Bear in mind some of the reason given to Jason's inflation was consistency and reliability at the time (I usually roll my eye ball at this, blimey... of course he is consistent because he is not even trying for quads while everyone else is!)

So lets see at US nationals, if federation do indeed treat all skaters equally and he get equal inflation treatment given established precedence for their former junior skater.

No, I didn't misunderstand you. I understood you perfectly. And yes, I know you are Asian. You think that Nathan at 16 is a far better skater than Jason is, was, or ever will be. So in your mind, if the judges at nationals don't award Nathan higher PCS than Jason, it might be because he's Asian. Kind of laughable when you remember how many years Michelle Kwan was national champion, wouldn't you say?

I personally disagree with you about Jason but I'm not going to bother debating you because it's pretty clear nothing will change your mind. So I leave you to your opinions.

 

[el henry]

I am also starting to have confidence in Nathan's ability to compete for Team USA in the coming years.

Seeing el henry and karne attack Nathan openly, I would like to write a few words. It’s useless to reason with karne from down under who would smear any skater, Evan, Jeremy, Maxim come to mind, posing a threat to G.B.F.A. I am responding to eh’s statements below.

Quote Originally Posted by el henry

"I have tried yet a third time to watch Nathan's LP. And the SP. Rarely with any skater have I gotten so much the feeling: it's 2:45, time to lift my arm, cock my head to the side, oh, it's 3:14, time to gesture to the left, and look to the right for 15 seconds (and I felt it even more in the MJ program. Does he even know what moves of MJ's he is using or why?) ETA: times and moves are made up as examples [Yes, it’s convenient to make things up as examples, even things in a skater's mind. How low can you go?], of course I feel really bad talking about a 16 year old kid this way [It doesn’t sound you feel bad at all. You were enjoying living in his head while he was skating.]; he has time, and I would think the dedication and wherewithal to fix this and have his interpretation match his skating. Right now, I would just as soon watch James Min of Australia, a junior with half the tech but twice the interpretative skills [Talking about smearing without fact and data: James’ Interpretation was 3.75 while Nathan’s was 7.18 at JGP Colorado Springs. How could that be twice the interpretative skills? Again you are just making up stuff and disregarding facts.]."

"I'll stick with the judge's assessment of Jason's PCS right now [You didn’t, when it’s not convenient to you. At 2015 Glacier Falls, Jason had 8.13 SS, 8.31 TR, 7.31 PE, 8.31 CH, 8.56 IN and Nathan had 8.19 SS, 8.00 TR, 8.25 PE, 8.31 CH, 8.25 IN. You probably will say this PCS is invalid because Jason didn’t care about the program and the performance this early in the season.]. And Nathan should pray, work and hope that he gets half of Jason's performance skills [Thank you for offering Nathan your kind advice. But it should read: “eh should pray and hope that Nathan gets half of Jason's performance skills.”] "

You probably have not watched, and won’t, some of these great performances of Nathan’s, but I’ll paste them here as reference to his performance skills that you have belittled.

2010: “Peter and the Wolf”
2011: “Stereo Hearts”
2012: “Praeludium and Allegro”
2012 “Three Musketeers“
2015 “Michael Jackson”

Unlike you, Nathan seemed humble in this TLC interview. In answering the Nam and Nathan comparison question, Nathan said he tried to keep away from skating boards and pay no attention to them. Good choice.

On this we agree: no skater should ever read skating boards, watch skating criticism videos; indeed, as far as I'm concerned, skaters should not listen to the commentary on their skates. But the internet? They should completely ignore all posts, including mine and including yours. These boards are for our exchanges, not for the skaters.

I have not seen anyone here attack Nathan ad hominem. I have not seen anyone here express anything but enthusiasm for his obvious skating gifts. Including my posts.

In general (and not just in response to this post) I have also never, despite attempts to erect a straw man to the contrary, seen anyone post that Jason can do no wrong, that Jason is perfect, or that Nats should not be held because Jason should just win. Even his strongest supporters would agree that Jason can improve (indeed, to medal on the world stage, must improve) his jumps and his consistency. ETA: in jumps I would hope that even Nathan's strongest supporters agree (and for the most part, I have seen that agreement) that he needs to up his performance quotient.

Personally, I prefer strong performers to strong technicians. Since that has been my preference since 1971, it is unlikely to change (old dogs? new tricks?). And I have faith in my own judgment as to who is a good performer. Otherwise I wouldn't be posting on boards. YMMV.

 

[yyyskate]

just my 2 cents
Jason, I was impressed by his musicality and dancer like physique/demeanor when he was a junior and rooted for him at the time even when he was without 3A and possibly everybody wrote him off and that is before his riverdancer success. I have watched Jason live twice at skate america, including his riverdance, I saw him throw transitions (like two direction twizzles etc.) in practice like no big deal and was impressed. His performance however was not as impressive as I had expected. His speed is kinda slow and skates not as big. In the most emotional/arousal part of his program, I felt like i need to give him a little push. On screen, I was impressed by his COR LP performance last season, I think he was very emotional at the time.
Jeremy, never saw his competition live, but has watched his ex live a few times. super impressed by his skating skills, blade work and atmosphere he brought, you will get emotional watching him. and often very creative/original transitions and moves combined with his dominate ice presence really difficult and he is a blade master.
Nathan #slaythan never watched him live. I think the reason why some people think he resembles Patrick is perhaps due to his program music, certain transitions and Nathan kinda share similar fashion taste with Patrick (plaid shirt). I think Nathan has extraordinary innate musicality, but his posture is not as good (possibly due to growing pain), He also need to tidy up his skating skills. However, I think he really got some fundamental quality that is essential for a future men's champion.
Denis, watched him live at SA, his step sequence, his blade work, just wow!!!
Patrick, his SP at 2013 worlds still remains the best performance I have ever seen live.
Kozuka, I like his skating skills,but his performance seems a little wooden/tentative when I watched him live at skate america.

These are just based on their performances that I watched, did not consider any off-ice personality or media hype. which I usually never cared anyway.

 

[OS]

No, I didn't misunderstand you. I understood you perfectly. And yes, I know you are Asian. You think that Nathan at 16 is a far better skater than Jason is, was, or ever will be. So in your mind, if the judges at nationals don't award Nathan higher PCS than Jason, it might be because he's Asian. Kind of laughable when you remember how many years Michelle Kwan was national champion, wouldn't you say?

I personally disagree with you about Jason but I'm not going to bother debating you because it's pretty clear nothing will change your mind. So I leave you to your opinions.

I still think you misread my post. I thought I was making an anti stereotype statement remarking sarcastically why Nathan wouldn't get the huge PCS inflation Jason received as a Junior->senior - ie due to some crap reason like he emote too Asian. My point is that there SHOULD NOT be such stereotype as skate Asian/expression' even though it is commonly used to play down someone's PCS ability rather unfairly. Like you said, Michelle Kwan is Asian. Her influence is absolutely huge with many young US (and non US) skaters after her. To the point now it groomed the US audience to revere that 'type of' of heart on the sleeve' classic Frank Carroll/Lori Nichols ladies championship package as the 'best/preferred' type of expression, that perhaps Jason Brown falls into. Where as we have seen skaters like Mirai, Gracie going after similar presentation approach, except they are clearly no way as expressively as Michelle level. By the same stereotype, Gracie/Max are the ones often skating too 'Asian'! By Michelle's standard, Mirai is clearly not Asian enough... lol! It is ridiculous.

Bottom line is it should never be a race thing but a personal individual thing. If you read back to my statement, I expressed if the reason to mark down Nathan in PCS is due to some 'crap' reason of his Asian like expression, i'd be very disappointed. Nathan is young, and although he has much to improve including his artistic expressions, they are not bad for his programs. Any deficiencies should not be down to his race, but simply his inexperience. But there shouldn't be just one way to interpret the same piece of music, there should be scope for all skaters bring their own take subject to their life experience. It is the quality and the delivery of these creative decisions that should be scored, not some personality or popularity contest. Particularly this is still a sport at the end of the day.

Right of now, yes I do believe Nathan is a better technical skater at age 16 than Jason is at age 20. He has 2 quads, delivered solid performances, it is not because I am biased against Jason. Technically they are not even that close enough to have biases matter to the scoring. The moment Jason deliver a great program with a mature performance (his FS has that potential), I'd be applauding him along like everyone else, but my pet peeve has always been overscored skaters, and Jason's US National marks sticks out more than any other to the point it became unfair to other US men 2 years in a row. Jason was a good junior skater who get senior ranked PCS without the goods to back it up. In my opinion of course.

 

[TMC]

I still think you misread my post. I thought I was making an anti stereotype statement remarking sarcastically why Nathan wouldn't get the huge PCS inflation Jason received as a Junior->senior - ie due to some crap reason like he emote too Asian. My point is that there SHOULD NOT be such stereotype as skate Asian/expression' even though it is commonly used to play down someone's PCS ability rather unfairly....

Is it? Really? :think:

 

[Ice Dance]

I have heard this stereotype used unfairly by commentators to "explain" why athletes from Asian countries do not have good expression. Never mind that there are tons of Asian athletes that contradict the stereotype. I can't say I've heard it recently, but it was a very prevalent comment when the first Chinese pairs were coming on the scene. Kudos to teams like S&Z and S&H for breaking down the stereotype.

 

[Tavi...]

Okay. I thought this might be interesting:

Here is Jason at 16, at his senior debut at US nationals. He was still competing as a junior internationally. The hardest jump he did: 2A.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G94pHGvq3Fs

Many people who saw this performance were blown away by it. There is a 2011 thread on FSU titled "Jason Brown's US senior nationals debut - opinions / constructive comments." You can easily google it. Many people commented favorably on his skating skills, flow and musicality. Others commented on his gorgeous basic skating, the height and flow in his jumps, edge work, wonderful knees, speed and spins. One commenter, an Australian FS judge, said that Jason had no PCS weakness, and as to skating skills, he used both directions, had speed and flow, and exceptional balance. His PCS: 71.58. His GOE: +10.

More than a few people have recently criticized Jason's speed, skating skills, lack of artistry, and lack of musicality. Here is Jason at WTT this year. He executed two fully rotated 3As but did not attempt a quad:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dIK3g_atVbI

What are people's thoughts on 16 year old Jason versus 20 year old Jason?

Here is Nathan's recent FS at JGP Colorado (PCS: 70.94, +GOE: 7):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vjBadThflQc

What are people's thoughts on 16 year old Jason and 16 year old Nathan? What are the qualities you like in each of them?

 

[alexg]

Okay. I thought this might be interesting:

Here is Jason at 16, at his senior debut at US nationals. He was still competing as a junior internationally. The hardest jump he did: 2A.

I haven't rewatched this recently, but I'm pretty sure he landed a 3z, if not a 3z-3t combo. Otherwise, he would have been completely buried in the standings, regardless of his interpretation.

 

[OS]

What are people's thoughts on 16 year old Jason versus 20 year old Jason?

Here is Nathan's recent FS at JGP Colorado (PCS: 70.94, +GOE: 7):

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vjBadThflQc

What are people's thoughts on 16 year old Jason and 16 year old Nathan? What are the qualities you like in each of them?

To add to the mix here's Nam at 16 where he beat Jason by some 9 points in TES at WC 2015.
https://youtu.be/fUNqSSX-57Q?t=45s

Would it be fair to say, had Nam skated for the US even with a quad and skated clean, he wouldn't have beat Jason at home given his PCS? There is no denying Jason was a junior prodigy with great showman skills. The question is whether he is over marked as a senior. And if he is, how that can impact the rest of the field for the US men. Funny how a simple change of pants can affect the artistic impression of the program. That was a great outing for Jason at World Teams.

Youngsters uses grandiose music like Jason at 16 with Nessum Dorma to compensate for their youthfulness. The powerful music can carry their assured movements (usually lack nuances) through without much processing. I'd argue it is the finer, slower, simpler delicate music that challenges interpretation far more. While they are able to deliver the choreography on time, they lack the artistic insights to deliver these movements with real meaning and purpose except onto the next movement. Note the PCS variance, where Jason received 92.42 PCS for his US Nationals performance, vs 84.60 for a great version at WC 2015 (his transition mark varies from a 10(!) to 7.75, and most people give him 8s, and interpretation from 9.75 to 7.75).

 

[Blades of Passion]

Here is Jason at 16, at his senior debut at US nationals. He was still competing as a junior internationally. The hardest jump he did: 2A.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=G94pHGvq3Fs

Many people who saw this performance were blown away by it. What are people's thoughts on 16 year old Jason versus 20 year old Jason?

You misspoke, he did much harder jumps than just 2A. He had all of the Triples except 3A.

That's still one of the most outstanding CoP programs. This is more the kind of skating we need to see, with even more maturity and then some extra difficulty in the jumps to be fully competitive. People need to stop forcing themselves to put 5 jumping passes in the second half of the program. 4-4 is often much nicer (and this program was actually 5-3, using that musical 2F+2A sequence in the first half to lead into the footwork sequence). Hanyu's best LP, in 2012, was also a 4-4 setup. Programs usually feel much more organic that way. If you are going to backload a lot, do it more cleverly, like Jason's program last year where he naturally worked the 3Loop into the choreography exactly at the halfway mark and then did his footwork sequence before a further onslaught of jumps, while still leaving one jump for the end of the program.

In looking at the 2011 program, it could be upgraded in jump difficulty while maintaining most of the choreographic concept. 3A, 4T, 3Lz+3T, 3Lo in the first half of the program and then 3Lz, 3A+2T, 3F+1Lo+3Sal, 2A in the second half would be perfect. Spins don't need as many revolutions these days as they used to (Jason was one of very few people who actually made all of those "8+ revolutions" look fine as a level feature, when it was allowed to be counted an endless amount of times in program) so that frees up some extra time in the choreography. Only problem is, the late program 3A isn't usually worth the risk right now, since judges don't understand how to score the PCS to reward exciting, perfectly balanced choreography.

 

[Tavi...]

@alexg and @bladesofpassion, thanks for the correction. What I meant and should have said was simply that he didn't perform a 3A. BOP, I think Jason's free skate this year is less back loaded than last year's, but not 100% sure on that - and of course it's early days yet.

@os168, I'm not sure if you realize this, but Jason is not the only skater at US nationals to get inflated PCS. Here are the protocols for US champs for 2014:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2014/2014_us_fs_champs/CAT002SEG004.html

And 2015:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2015/2015_us_fs_champs/results.html

To see the protocols, you can either click on the "judge detail scores" at the top or click on the "+" to the right of each skater's name.

Look at Jeremy's PCS for 2014, when he was champ. Look at Josh's, Adam's, and Jeremy 's PCS in 2015. They're all very high, though Jeremy's was lower in 2015 than 2014.

Now look at protocols for Jason, Adam and Josh at 4CCs:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2015/

And at 2015 worlds:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2015/

And at Jeremy at Worlds 2014:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/

You will see that far from receiving inflated PCS as US champion in 2015, Jason got lower PCS than Josh at 4CCs. Moreover, his PCS at 2015 Worlds, 84, was almost identical to what he got at the 2014 Olympics, before he was the US champion. Also, his PCS at 2015 Worlds was only 4 points higher than his PCS of 80 at 2013 TEB:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpfra2013/gpfra2013_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

Jason placed 8th at US nationals in 2013. So his PCS at TEB - just 2 points lower than Hanyu's at the same comp - was not the result of US nationals inflation or being the US number 1. My point: Jason has always had high PCS scores relative to many other skaters.

Finally, I think it would be fair to say that if Nam had skated his Worlds Free Skate at the 2015 US championships, he would not have received PCS comparable to Jason. But I think that would be the correct result, just as I thought the result was correct at Worlds. Although you may disagree, I thought Nam's FS was very juniorish in character, and despite his technical prowess, he still looked like a junior skater to me. Technical ability is not synonymous with PCS. But for the record, if you look at the Worlds 2015 protocols, you will see that Jason got about +9 in GOE even though his 3A was downgraded and he got -1.43 in GOE for that element, while Nam got 8 points of GOE for a clean program that included a quad and two 3As. That to me means that with the exception of one 3A, judges thought that Jason executed his technical elements very well.

 

[yyyskate]

this is Nathan #slaythan at 12 year old. doing a telegraphed 3A and 3S-3LO at second half.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec_qXlKwDDA
Nathan #slaythan at 15 without successful 3A doing a fun number
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHVKoCPmxNA
Nathan #slaythan four seasons LP, musicality
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqrY1WtdR2w
Nathan #slaythan last year's LP loads of transitions as always.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vf1l-ebzZ88

Due to Nathan's innate musicality, he can interpret a remarkably broad range of music at such a young age despite his relatively poor posture (shoulder, neck) and somehow introvert personality.

 

[OS]

@os168, I'm not sure if you realize this, but Jason is not the only skater at US nationals to get inflated PCS. Here are the protocols for US champs for 2014:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2014/2014_us_fs_champs/CAT002SEG004.html

And 2015:

http://www.usfigureskating.org/leaderboard/results/2015/2015_us_fs_champs/results.html

To see the protocols, you can either click on the "judge detail scores" at the top or click on the "+" to the right of each skater's name.

Look at Jeremy's PCS for 2014, when he was champ. Look at Josh's, Adam's, and Jeremy 's PCS in 2015. They're all very high, though Jeremy's was lower in 2015 than 2014.

Now look at protocols for Jason, Adam and Josh at 4CCs:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/fc2015/

And at 2015 worlds:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2015/

And at Jeremy at Worlds 2014:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/wc2014/

You will see that far from receiving inflated PCS as US champion in 2015, Jason got lower PCS than Josh at 4CCs. Moreover, his PCS at 2015 Worlds, 84, was almost identical to what he got at the 2014 Olympics, before he was the US champion. Also, his PCS at 2015 Worlds was only 4 points higher than his PCS of 80 at 2013 TEB:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpfra2013/gpfra2013_Men_FS_Scores.pdf

Jason placed 8th at US nationals in 2013. So his PCS at TEB - just 2 points lower than Hanyu's at the same comp - was not the result of US nationals inflation or being the US number 1. My point: Jason has always had high PCS scores relative to many other skaters.

Finally, I think it would be fair to say that if Nam had skated his Worlds Free Skate at the 2015 US championships, he would not have received PCS comparable to Jason. But I think that would be the correct result, just as I thought the result was correct at Worlds. Although you may disagree, I thought Nam's FS was very juniorish in character, and despite his technical prowess, he still looked like a junior skater to me. Technical ability is not synonymous with PCS. But for the record, if you look at the Worlds 2015 protocols, you will see that Jason got about +9 in GOE even though his 3A was downgraded and he got -1.43 in GOE for that element, while Nam got 8 points of GOE for a clean program that included a quad and two 3As. That to me means that with the exception of one 3A, judges thought that Jason executed his technical elements very well.

Yes Nam is a very good junior skater, but this 16 years old junior has beaten Jason convincingly at the 2015WC with just 1 quad vs Jason's best performed FS of the year. My point is someone as promising as Nam would have never left US nationals to able to compete and beat the likes of Jason with the sort of PCS Jason has been gifted at US Nationals relative to everyone else that put him so much ahead. In other words, Jason's hugely inflated PCS is hindering progress for US Men.

I am very aware of the inflation in general that goes on at National competitions, but with Federation incentivised competitions there's always a bit of a smoke and mirror when they openly support certain skaters to ensure the international judges get the right 'signal' who they should focus on rewarding. It is kind of an artificial process that can get out of hand and makes it unfair for other skaters. It happened at Japanese Nationals with Daisuke vs Hanyu. Basically JSF clearly put their weight behind Hanyu as their choice, even when imo the performance doesn't match the mark. His PCS rose massively that year from Juniors by these so called momentum building game (basically put him in the right competitions, both inflate his mark and deflate his rivals, and increase these mark steadily within the corridor) getting ready for the worlds. In doing so, the federation signaled to international judges that if you should give a boost, you should give to Hanyu than Daisuke, he is our guy now! (Same treatment Adelina always get when skate at home as Federation's #1) Never mind Daisuke skated the lights out and delivered what I consider one of his best FS ever.

Basically you have to read between the lines. Jason too was a junior->senior skater in 2014 and he got the same PCS as Jeremy Abbot. Except in SP, Jason was behind Dornbush and Jeremy, so ofcourse he needed the extra boost that put huge distance between him and his contemporaries (Josh, Max, Ricki, Adam) if he is to be seen as US#1. Also imo Riverdance wasn't interpreted that well, he was pretty much skating as himself in full on Jason manic showing off mode, long limbs everywhere without discipline, cohesion and control required in such a dance, particular holding on the upper body carriage movement necessary for Irish folk dancing... the string of 10s and 9.75 in interpretation is like (this is coming from someone who seen River Dance twice live in London) It was more of an entertaining routine with rousing music in the background to support the excitement and movements than true integration of all elements with thoughts and artistry. The only thing Irish about it was s the colour of his shirt. Then proceed to 2015, Jason's marks were again way inflated right at the start on a relative basis to the likes of Josh got a huge boost compare to previous years because his program clearly better than Jason's on the day. So should Adam Rippon. Jeremy's mark deflated then but it doesn't seem to matter at that point, as he had been out of favour with the federation and probably punishment and signal him to retire. Josh as far as I am aware do generally get better international marks in PCS than Jason prior to USFSA put their weight behind him in 2014. So did Adam Rippon and Jeremy. After 2015 with Jeremy's gone, now Jason get all the PCS reserved for US men but clearly it is not enough competitively. Given Jason has been beaten by a 16 years Junior skater with a quad. So now all these gripes and indignation about the 16 years Nathan with 2 quads can not possibly be a threat is frankly ludicrous. This is a sport, and I don't see how far apart from Nam is ahead of Nathan at this stage. Hope it motivate Jason to up the ante and be better. From his interviews, Hanyu hinted he knew he was somewhat gifted with the Japan National win, but as a result, he was motivated to work harder and became a much improved skater because of it.