2015-16 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[mrrice]

*strolls in casually*

Oh? Did anything interesting happen today?

Ummmmmm. I don't know.

 

[OS]

More practice jumps from Jason:

https://instagram.com/p/8hLcWBif4-/

Sweetango apples: the best!

Things are looking good. Nice combo. Hope he can bring it to the competition and finally justify his marks. He will need them this year at US Nationals.

It is so amusing to observe how his fan react to successful Quads practice videos. I remember so many were so indignant saying Jason is sooo good in xyz he doesn't need quad to warrant those 30+ national inflation marks, that not everything is about quads etc etc... but when he start actually land these quad like everyone else internationally, they are the ones most excited. Isn't that kind of contradictory? lol... welcome back down to earth.

As for everything else, I am really curious on Adam's package this season.

 

[Tavi...]

I think if you go back and look, you'll see that most of Jason's fans have always said he needs a quad to compete at the top against Hanyu et al. It's usually gmyers -who is not a fan- who says Jason doesn't need the quad because he can score points other ways. Gmyers is being sarcastic because s/he values quads and thinks Jason is overmarked without one.

What Jason's fans have said is that he deserves the marks he's getting - but that's very different than saying he doesn't need a quad.

 

[mrrice]

"What Jason's fans have said is that he deserves the marks he's getting - but that's very different than saying he doesn't need a quad."

True!!

 

[Seren]

Saying Jason is excellent at everything else doesn't mean his fans don't acknowledge he needs the quad. Part of the reason he has such good skating skills, spins and footwork is he really worked on those when he struggled with jumps.

I don't think he needed the quad to win nationals last year. None of the men with quads were particularly spectacular. That's not the same as needing a quad internationally. Look at worlds, Jason skated great and that should be respected and it was with his 4th place finish. But he was a good distance behind the top 3 and that is where the point difference is.

I am a huge fan of Jason and I think most of his fans have been realistic about needing the quad all along. It is exciting to see him landing it in practice because he is so good at everything else. If he can get it consistent he will have a great shot at the podium internationally.

 

[el henry]

OK, said it before and I'll say it again:
For my enjoyment of Jason's skating, I don't need to see a quad. His footwork, his spins, his interpretative skills, are all I need. And his joy in skating, that pure joy: that's what I want to see.

Judges want to see quads. I am sure that Jason, as an elite competitive athlete, wants the best score from judges. Therefore, I am happy to see progress on a quad for *Jason's* sake, not for my sake.

I'll be a fan regardless....

 

[mrrice]

Being a huge fan of Joshua Farris, I've seen Jason skate for years and have always watched him closely. I Knew that when Jason got his big jumps in order, he'd be a big threat to Josh. I'm happy for Jason and for the US Men because if we're going to keep our 3 spots, we need Jason to be at his best especially if Josh is unable to compete. I'm still hoping to see Josh at Nationals and Worlds but only if he's fully recovered. His health comes and I'm willing to wait until he's ready.

I will say this about Jason. He couldn't be in better hands when it comes to Coaching. I think Kori is one of best coaches I've ever seen and her students seem to be very well grounded, nice people.

 

[OS]

I think if you go back and look, you'll see that most of Jason's fans have always said he needs a quad to compete at the top against Hanyu et al. It's usually gmyers -who is not a fan- who says Jason doesn't need the quad because he can score points other ways. Gmyers is being sarcastic because s/he values quads and thinks Jason is overmarked without one.

What Jason's fans have said is that he deserves the marks he's getting - but that's very different than saying he doesn't need a quad.

Fine.. some fans, but not all fans. In anycase, I am glad he is pushing himself, and doesn't matter if he is not successful right now, as long as he is keep trying, he WILL became successful. He will become a better skater because of it.

It is all part of the progress, part of the 'struggle' for higher artistic realisation that many like Patrick, Daisuke, Jeremy all had to go through before earning the sort of PCS marks Jason receives at home. Looks like his FS has generated a few negative and doubtful reviews already but I think that is rather short sighted. This is likely his best program to date after River Dance. If he is able to do this program justice, musically, artistically and choreographically, regardless of the scoring, he will became one of the best artistic skaters around, as he'd have expanded his range, developed greater maturity and understanding of more subdued and delicate musical realisation as well as having personal breakthroughs.

The Piano is by no means an an easy program for him (except may be Abbott, Farris, possibly Rippon among the US guys). Jason is experiencing great learning curve just by tackle this program. He will gain new insights to why he must resist his natural tendency to rush through his movements carelessly, that sometimes can be masked with having as many transitions as possible (never mind movements are clumsily abruptly finished) to an upbeat steady rhythmic program, will suddenly become a disadvantage with a program like this that requires finesse and polish. He may have great technical skills, but artistically, it is like listening to a child prodigy playing masterworks... they can do the finger movements easily and fast enough, but really made little sense of the music intention able to generate their own unique credible interpretation as needed. Able to have their own take on where the notes should be played louder, quieter, faster, gentler, longer, shorter from inscription etc. It is always easier to over dramatize pieces to make them into crowdpleasers, but you'd find true mastery works are almost always about doing things simply, clearly, succinctly, finely for that deep long lasting impressions as effortlessly as possible. Especially with music like these, the concept of effortless seamless flow must be delivered. Pay great attention to the rise and falls of music phrases, be keenly aware of body movements react to gentle sway and stillness and pauses as needed with musical sensitivity. Where it requires fluidity or even stillness, he present them too tautly at the moment, such as position and tilt of the head.

I have never found him to be a particularly musical skater. Even having won Ondrej Nepela, he failed to deliver the movements according to the rise and fall the music appropriately, as such he received appropriate PCS around 82. As the season progresses, hopefully he can surrender himself to the music a bit more, learn the power of implied vs fully extended movements as part of seamless flow, and not letting the music sound like some backdrop with little meaning and purpose. Observe how he totally missed the emotional highlight that is the fan spirals that is suppose to fully highlight the rising swell of the music (The first half the music feels like steady stream of questions, conflicting conciousness, the latter half feels like about reconciliation, settling, able to see the light after grey clouds and summation) . How his second position were not hold long enough to fully sell the choreography. By missing these massive choreographic cues at the emotional reckoning section of the program, no wonder the whole performance feels flat contrary to the music and choreographic intentions.

 

[noskates]

All I was asking for was what Karne meant. It's hard to recognize subtleties vs. sarcasm in the written word. Same could be said for emoties! At first glance it seemed sarcastic and I didn't understand why. Glad I misunderstood! I do agree with what everyone is saying that we Jason fans (and he isn't the only skater I like, by the way) KNOW he needs the quad to compete effectively on the international level especially but that his other abilities far exceed most skaters - particularly in the US. His latest LP was great but not yet masterful. I think we'll even see improvement in the delivery of the choreo at Skate America. This is a mature, beautifully planned program. I just hope his jumps are commensurate with the choreography.

Wanted to say a word about Josh Farris. My son played rugby which is a VERY tough and physically riskful sport. Other than bumps and bruises and sprains he came out of it pretty healthy. But he fractured his skull and blew out his knee trout fishing! My point is - you can't guard yourself from all injury. The best you can do is be in good shape and try to avoid injury when you're competing in any sport - including figure skating. But once you have it, especially where the brain is involved, you need to put that first in all you do and recover completely before you compete again. I sincerely hope that Josh's team does not let him back on the ice until he is fully recovered. He has a lot of time left before the Olympics and this would be a good year to just take off and heal. He's beautiful to watch and so talented that I would hate to never see him compete again. It would definitely be a big loss for the US.

 

[Tavi...]

@os168, I agree that Jason isn't yet giving anywhere near a full performance of his FS - technically, musically or emotionally. I agree with you that he's not yet fully responding to the music, that he sometimes stops short with a movement, for example, that would be better held longer. The performance isn't cohesive yet. But I don't think he will get there until he has mastered the mechanics of it. First things first. This program was designed to challenge him,not just with the quad but with the edge work, flow and purity it requires. It also will challenge him to open himself up to the audience in a different way. We'll see what happens.

In general I do find Jason very musical, and I'm a trained musician.

 

[OS]

In general I do find Jason very musical, and I'm a trained musician.

It is about the fine line of musicality. Just like I know from personal experience not many trained artists are necessarily that artistic, nor do I find that many trained ballet dancers are naturally gifted at interpreting choreography. All these is not to say performers can not deliver something that is musicality sound, or artistically credible with sheer hard work, training, refining and practice.

How slow and how quick someone is able to pick up choreography and music intentions can be seen in their natural ability to convey appropriate suitable movement even without obvious music directions. The fact Jason has been slow delivering a decent version of last year's T&I (until world team?) convinced me his great performances are the product of hard work rather than innate talent. The fact there were still no visible improvements in his current FS interpretation further confirms this. Anyway, he appears to have a great team that seems to know how to best develop and present him (all except in costumes which is very ... home made), and he is lucky for the fact good innate musicality seems hugely underrated under COP anyway.

 

[Seren]

P

It is about the fine line of musicality. Just like I know from personal experience not many trained artists are necessarily that artistic, nor do I find that many trained ballet dancers are naturally gifted at interpreting choreography. All these is not to say performers can not deliver something that is musicality sound, or artistically credible with sheer hard work, training, refining and practice.

How slow and how quick someone is able to pick up choreography and music intentions can be seen in their natural ability to convey appropriate suitable movement even without obvious music directions. The fact Jason has been slow delivering a decent version of last year's T&I (until world team?) convinced me his great performances are the product of hard work rather than innate talent. The fact there were still no visible improvements in his current FS interpretation further confirms this. Anyway, he appears to have a great team that seems to know how to best develop and present him (all except in costumes which is very ... home made), and he is lucky for the fact good innate musicality seems hugely underrated under COP anyway.

Err... Going to disagree with you that "not many trained artists are that artistic". Your personal experience is not everyone's. Certainly there are artists that are not particularly artistic but that is not the rule. I found there to be a large improvement in Jason's interpretation between glacier falls and last weekend. He is still getting the program in his head, you can see he is still thinking about the movement, but is also starting to perform.

I agree with you that Jason works very hard but I disagree in that I do see innate taint in his musicality, and I'm sure many who enjoy watching his skating would agree. I suppose that's the trouble with a subjective sport, what one person sees as beautiful another finds lacking. However no one has dominion over artistry, and there is no definitive definition of what is good interpretation.

In the end all that matters is the actual competition, I've seen hard work beat talent many times.

 

[karne]

What's that supposed to mean? That the instagram of Jason isn't interesting? Are you minimizing the accomplishment? I don't get your comment.

Whoops, sorry. I appear to be having a failure to communicate my humour accurately the last couple of days.

You should have seen the grin on my face when I typed it.

Being a huge fan of Joshua Farris, I've seen Jason skate for years and have always watched him closely. I Knew that when Jason got his big jumps in order, he'd be a big threat to Josh. I'm happy for Jason and for the US Men because if we're going to keep our 3 spots, we need Jason to be at his best especially if Josh is unable to compete. I'm still hoping to see Josh at Nationals and Worlds but only if he's fully recovered. His health comes and I'm willing to wait until he's ready.

As a fellow fan of both, I've always wondered what would happen on that day they were both utterly, heartbreakingly perfect. I guess we're not far off finding out!

(Somewhere, I am sure, both Max and Josh are delighted that their friend has joined them in the Quad Squad!)

 

[StitchMonkey]

(Somewhere, I am sure, both Max and Josh are delighted that their friend has joined them in the Quad Squad!)

That is one of the great thing about mens skating, they seem so friendly and supportive. I think you are right that the skaters you mentioned are likely happy for him and respect him. I suspect most male skaters are happy for each other's triumphs. I am sure that if Adam nails his quad lutz this weekend the Colorado Trio will be happy for him as well.

 

[ice coverage]

... (Somewhere, I am sure, both Max and Josh are delighted that their friend has joined them in the Quad Squad!)

That is one of the great thing about mens skating, they seem so friendly and supportive. I think you are right that the skaters you mentioned are likely happy for him and respect him. I suspect most male skaters are happy for each other's triumphs. I am sure that if Adam nails his quad lutz this weekend the Colorado Trio will be happy for him as well.

:agree: Agree that the U.S. men seem to be a mutual admiration society .
As another example, I recently have discovered that Nathan and Aleksei are besties. Very endearing.
(Will limit my comments in this thread to U.S. men. Don't know enough about alllll men internationally.)

Some news today:
Another reason to cheer is that Grant Hochstein has been assigned to NHK.

http://www.isu.org/media/1041/gp_men_15-10-07.pdf
https://twitter.com/Grant_Hochstein/status/651849188628496384​

I know that USFS had no say in choosing who filled Josh's GP slots, but a silver lining to his misfortune is that the Canadian and Japanese feds picked Dolensky and Hochstein.

 

[noskates]

Karne :

What I'm finding sort of odd is that some are holding Jason to a MUCH higher standard of musicality, interpretation, etc. etc. then say a Hanyu. But to be honest I don't delve into the nuts and bolts so much as I enjoy the overall presentation. Sometimes I think you can nitpick to infinity and it takes away from the program and the enjoyment of the skater. NONE of these men are perfect. In fact, I don't know that I've ever seen a perfect skater. But they're all striving for that goal and some get there a little faster than others. I don't know too many men that could conquer ohene's choreography without months of practice. And that includes Jeremy and Adam and Josh. I remember reading where Jason had such a difficult time learning RiverDance because of the (then) intricacies of the steps. Each competition he got a little better. But I would honestly defy anyone to believe he wasn't one with the program at the '14 Nationals and that he wasn't interpreting the music and the spirit of the music. It's still so early in the season and there are many miles to skate yet.

 

[Layback11]

As another example, I recently have discovered that Nathan and Aleksei are besties. Very endearing.

Krasonozhon?

 

[ice coverage]

Krasonozhon?

Yes .

Out of ignorance :hopelessness:, I was only vaguely aware of Krasnozhon until the Freezer Challenge/Broadmoor Open. Started noticing thereafter that he is a good cheerleader on social media for Nathan. And then I heard Nathan say in a recent video that Aleksei is his best friend (sorry, I forget whether it was an USFS or ISU video or what).

Cute bro photo of Nathan and Aleksei:

https://instagram.com/p/6pHEmrs8e2/ (from this summer's ISP camp, if I'm not mistaken -- courtesy of Dolensky )​

 

[musicfan80]

Wanted to say a word about Josh Farris. My son played rugby which is a VERY tough and physically riskful sport. Other than bumps and bruises and sprains he came out of it pretty healthy. But he fractured his skull and blew out his knee trout fishing! My point is - you can't guard yourself from all injury. The best you can do is be in good shape and try to avoid injury when you're competing in any sport - including figure skating. But once you have it, especially where the brain is involved, you need to put that first in all you do and recover completely before you compete again. I sincerely hope that Josh's team does not let him back on the ice until he is fully recovered. He has a lot of time left before the Olympics and this would be a good year to just take off and heal. He's beautiful to watch and so talented that I would hate to never see him compete again. It would definitely be a big loss for the US.

I haven't gotten the impression that Team Christy/Damon are anything but coaches who want Josh (or any of their other skaters) to be 100% ready when he returns to training. I also think that Christy/Damon are A LOT more private about what is going on with their skaters than especially Tom Z. or Kori - they don't post videos of their skaters. I don't think Christy is even on social media but it seems Damon only tweets about supportive messages around competition time or "off ice fun" about his students.

(Somewhere, I am sure, both Max and Josh are delighted that their friend has joined them in the Quad Squad!)

I have really respected the attitude that Max, Jason, and Josh (at least appear) to have towards each other. I hope that it is genuinely from them and not just from USFS or their coaches. I would really like for those three to be our World (or Olympic!) team one year.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Yes .

Out of ignorance :hopelessness:, I was only vaguely aware of Krasnozhon until the Freezer Challenge/Broadmoor Open. Started noticing thereafter that he is a good cheerleader on social media for Nathan. And then I heard Nathan say in a recent video that Aleksei is his best friend (sorry, I forget whether it was an USFS or ISU video or what).

Cute bro photo of Nathan and Aleksei:

https://instagram.com/p/6pHEmrs8e2/ (from this summer's ISP camp, if I'm not mistaken)​

I am starting to think that event ended up being a much better spring board for skaters than was expect which i am thrilled with. Vivian Le got her name out there and has done well since in a similar fashion to Aleksei. I think it actually might have garnered them some respect. I hope TPTB agree and try to continue it and it continues to be a way to get noticed for skaters!