2015-16 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[Mrs. P]

You can't say that at the beginning of the season. The Senior men haven't even had the first GP yet. What if Jason medals at both GPs and makes the GPF? What if Max does? Should that be held less than a couple of Junior wins? That would be a very Kovtun-like path for the USFS to take, and we saw how well that (didn't) work out for them.

They didn't do that for Jeremy Abbott, who made GPF and lost a world spot by like a tenth of a point in 2011.

 

[ice coverage]

Does anyone know what Nathan wants to do, if he had his druthers?

“I would love to go to senior worlds this year,” said Chen, when asked about his goals. “I definitely want to make the JGP Final as a more solid goal. I want to stay healthy the whole year and compete to my fullest potential.”

http://www.goldenskate.com/2015/07/nathan-chen/​

The excerpt above is from gsk8's Jul 2015 article before Nathan competed at Glacier Falls.

---

Best wishes to Nathan at Tallinn Trophy in mid-November -- his first senior international/Challenger comp.

Soon enough, we'll have reddish apples to compare to red apples.

 

[carriecmu0503]

They didn't do that for Jeremy Abbott, who made GPF and lost a world spot by like a tenth of a point in 2011.

The decision not to send Jeremy Abbott to 2011 Worlds still really ticks me off! He had had boot problems all summer and fall which obviously would have affected his training. He got the problem sorted out be the time Nationals rolled around, and got (in my opinion) underscored in the short program. Then, he misses a couple jumps in the long, is met by Ross Miner (a skater I do enjoy watching) who has the competition of his life, and just barely beats JA. Obviously, JA would have had a much higher scoring potential than Ross at Worlds. He was also quite possibly on a trajectory to peak at Worlds that year, rather than Nationals. I think losing that trip to Worlds really destroyed JA's chances to build momentum for the quad, and likely contributed to a confidence loss. At the very least, I believe USFS should have used the 4CC as a skate-off between Jeremy and Ross that year. Sending a team of Ryan, Ricky, and Ross to Worlds was a near guarantee the US would lose a spot for the nest year's Worlds. While I love Ryan's skating, it was not realistic to think his quads would be verified at Worlds and that he would receive PCS anywhere near as high as he got at Nationals. Ross and Ricky had very little senior experience at the time. Ricky ended up doing well, placing 8th. Had Abbott been there, it would not have been out of the realm of possibility for him to again place 5th, like he had the year before, to retain the 3rd spot. How different the quad may have been!

 

[el henry]

I'm sorry, this has nothing to do with the discussion, really, but I have never seen "Ryan, Ricky and Ross" together in a sentence like that: sounds like a 90's boy band

 

[mrrice]

Until a US Man beats a relatively clean Jason, especially with Josh ( My Favorite ) out for most, if not all of the season. I'd have to put my money on Jason. He has IMO, one of the best coaches in the world and I have never ( Personally ) seen him have a melt down on the ice which is more than I can say for Adam, Jeremy, and Ross. Max still has PCS problems and until I see a few of his GP performances, I can't put him ahead of Jason on my list.

I admit to knowing next to nothing about Nathan so I can't really comment on him at this point. He's obviously done well on the JGP so, I'll definitely be paying close attention to him. Without Nathan I'd rank the US Men in the following order.

#1 Jason #2 Adam #3 Max

Can someone shed some light on Nathan for me. How is as a competitor? I mean, I LOVE Jeremey when he skates well but, I can never relax and enjoy his skating ( Insert Ice Wine Here ) because he's let the pressure get to him for so many years now. I'm kind of indifferent when it comes to Ross and Richard. I like them but.......I don't think the international judges feel the same way.

Without Josh, I'm definitely worried for the US Men. However, this could be a huge opportunity for someone like Nathan to really make a move at Nationals and Worlds.

 

[karne]

#1 Jason #2 Adam #3 Max

:sarcasm:

So the only thing we've seen of Adam so far this season is a scrappy SP with a fall on a 4Lz<< (and who by your admission is subject to meltdowns), but he still ranks above Max who had a clean, new PB SP at Nebelhorn and came close to his PCS PB in the FS there in spite of two popped quads. Yeah, okay. Fine.

 

[gravy]

:sarcasm:

So the only thing we've seen of Adam so far this season is a scrappy SP with a fall on a 4Lz<< (and who by your admission is subject to meltdowns), but he still ranks above Max who had a clean, new PB SP at Nebelhorn and came close to his PCS PB in the FS there in spite of two popped quads. Yeah, okay. Fine.

Keep in mind that Max scored his PB at an early senior B in 2013 and we all know how the Sochi season turned out for him. (And the same can be said for Rippon.)

Adam is prone to meltdowns in the vein of falling all over the place, but Max is prone to many, less egregious mistakes that add up... pops, hand downs, missed spin levels, etc. that end up being just as costly. It's essentially like picking between apples and oranges.

 

[mrrice]

:sarcasm:

So the only thing we've seen of Adam so far this season is a scrappy SP with a fall on a 4Lz<< (and who by your admission is subject to meltdowns), but he still ranks above Max who had a clean, new PB SP at Nebelhorn and came close to his PCS PB in the FS there in spite of two popped quads. Yeah, okay. Fine.

Like I said....The only Skater I really follow is Josh and with him out, I'm basically grasping at straws. Max has definitely improved however, if Jason lands a quad ( Which looks more likely every day ) He is a MILE ahead of Max when it comes to PCS. I don't dislike Max, in fact, I think he's great. He is not however, in the same league as Jason in the PCS department.

The X Factor in my ranking is the Coaching. Kori IMO, has a way with Jason that can't be overlooked. He seems not to be affected by pressure and I can not say the same about Max, Adam, and certainly not Jeremy. By the way........Max wasn't even ON the World Team last year. Let's see him get that far we'll go from there. So yeah......As of today my list remains. Jason, Adam, Max.

 

[mrrice]

I'm sorry, this has nothing to do with the discussion, really, but I have never seen "Ryan, Ricky and Ross" together in a sentence like that: sounds like a 90's boy band

KABOOM!!!

 

[karne]

.Max wasn't even ON the World Team last year. Let's see him get that far we'll go from there. So yeah......

He was one of the reasons there were three spots to begin with. Don't you dare. He was the pewter medallist, he was the one left at home, when the USFS didn't even have the common decency to send him to 4CCs like other pewter medallists in years past have got to. And then when they did throw him a bone, we practically saw a riot on this very forum because how dare Max get an assignment, how dare Max get a reward for his fourth-place finish. And I can guarantee you that if any other skater had been sent there wouldn't have been anywhere near as much fuss.

 

[Layback11]

Sheesh, gettin' crazy up in here...

The best thing I can say about this is that I'm superbly happy our field is deep enough to cause an argument. I have preferences, but I'll be happy for whoever makes worlds & all I want is the three spots back and for somebody to make the GPF. (Not entirely sure how likely that is, but did anybody see Vincent Zhou making the JGPF before he actually did? Anything can happen. :yes

 

[el henry]

And, on a completely different note, as a wannabe fan, is anyone else disappointed by Adam's SP? I'm not feeling it, I'm not loving the kick posing (I love kick posing when it makes sense, here it's not making sense to me), I'm not seeing the real drama I like when Adam is on.

And if he doesn't stop trying that quad lutz, interrupting all the flow of his program, and again when he's on, I love Adam's flow, I will *really* feel like slapping Rafa upside his head.

 

[mrrice]

I would NEVER say leave ....... off the team if they earn their place on it. I didn't like it when it happened to Marai and I'd hate to see it happen to anyone. Also, I don't offer my opinions just for fun, though I don't have a problem for those who do. The reason I left Nathan off my list is that I don't know anything about him other than seeing a couple of his JGP Videos.

Jason remains my top pick only because I have a feeling that Joshua will not be prepared due to his health. From my experience as a coach I know first hand how important preparation both physically and mentally are to a skater. When you add Jason's talent and his ability to skate cleanly the majority of the time. With Rohene's Choreography and Kori's training methods, you get a Champion. That's exactly what Jason is and until someone takes his title, He is the US Men's Figure Skating Champion. A title I don't see him giving up. At least not this season.

 

[Mrs. P]

Okay, here's my two cents on why Nathan can compete as a senior and it has more to do than quads:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjBadThflQc#t=5m

This is John Couglin pointing out that Nathan took the time to make a plan when he was injured to train smarter. That takes a lot of maturity to realize that something had to change in that regard.

Also if you listen to John and Ted Barton, who were there, they note a lot of what makes Nathan able to make that transition -- he does have good skating skills, decent musicality. Sure he can stand to work on the performance aspect, but every senior man has something to work on. Certainly not having a quad didn't stop Jason from seeing some early success in seniors, I don't see why Nathan couldn't see the same success by capitalizing on his jump consistency, including (and especially) the quad.

 

[mrrice]

Okay, here's my two cents on why Nathan can compete as a senior and it has more to do than quads:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjBadThflQc#t=5m

This is John Couglin pointing out that Nathan took the time to make a plan when he was injured to train smarter. That takes a lot of maturity to realize that something had to change in that regard.

Also if you listen to John and Ted Barton, who were there, they note a lot of what makes Nathan able to make that transition -- he does have good skating skills, decent musicality. Sure he can stand to work on the performance aspect, but every senior man has something to work on. Certainly not having a quad didn't stop Jason from seeing some early success in seniors, I don't see why Nathan couldn't see the same success by capitalizing on his jump consistency, including (and especially) the quad.

Holy Cow!!!! See, I had absolutely no idea he could jump like that. I can't wait t see him at the JGPF. If he wins, my list will definitely change.

 

[Mrs. P]

Holy Cow!!!! See, I had absolutely no idea he could jump like that. I can't wait t see him at the JGPF. If he wins, my list will definitely change.

I'm guessing you were looking at the old JGP videos then?

 

[mrrice]

I'm guessing you were looking at the old JGP videos then?

Yes, I just watched the clip you attached to the post you made earlier. He's great!! Also, with Rafael A. as his coach, he has everything going for him. I will also add that having a rink full of Champions skating around you on a daily basis......Can't Hurt!!!! I'm excited to see more of him. Has he decided to compete at Senior Worlds if he makes the Senior Team or will compete as a Junior no matter what?

 

[el henry]

Holy Cow!!!! See, I had absolutely no idea he could jump like that. I can't wait t see him at the JGPF. If he wins, my list will definitely change.

The boy *can* jump, no ifs, ands or buts.

Here is maybe a statement for general agreement: Nathan's jumps plus Jason's transitions, spins and performance skills equals skater of the century. Well, other than Toller, of course

Now if he would only skate to Jack Jones' Luck be a Lady (that one is for you, mrrice )

 

[mrrice]

el henry wrote!!!

Now if he would only skate to Jack Jones' Luck be a Lady (that one is for you, mrrice )

That post made me so happy, I can hardly stand it! :dance:

 

[Ice Dance]

Can someone shed some light on Nathan for me. How is as a competitor?

He is the most consistent, competitive young male skater I have seen at U.S. Nationals since attending my first one in 2006. He's doing his job on the JGP, and if USFSA wants competitive, age-eligible athletes to compete in the junior ranks instead of heading straight into seniors, then they have to give those athletes the same opportunity to earn a spot at Worlds as everyone else. I do not get the Jason vs. Nathan argument. There are three spots on the U.S. men's team. If they both skate up to their potential, there's no reason they couldn't both earn a placement. Likewise for Max, Josh, etc. I believe Max has a good shot at making the team. If Josh is healthy, likewise. But I think they have to earn it. I don't think anyone gets a free pass over Nathan because he had a rough season last year and elected to compete as a junior. I'm sure he'll go to Junior Worlds if he doesn't make the National team, but I don't think Junior Worlds is what's motivating him. And this isn't about where he might finish this season in seniors. It's about getting the experience so he can compete with Nam & Shoma & Daniel--all his peers who are likely heading to senior worlds. Nathan might very well have a typical "first worlds" experience. Jason had it at the Olympics. Josh had it last season. But they are undoubtedly better for the experience, and the U.S. team is stronger as well.