2015-16 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[ice coverage]

... Also if you listen to John and Ted Barton, who were there, they note a lot of what makes Nathan able to make that transition -- he does have good skating skills, decent musicality. Sure he can stand to work on the performance aspect, but every senior man has something to work on. ....

Holy Cow!!!! See, I had absolutely no idea he could jump like that. I can't wait t see him at the JGPF. If he wins, my list will definitely change.

Follow-up to what Mrs. P said:

After Nathan's win at JGP Logrono, Ted Barton interviewed him and asked what improvements he hoped to make before the JGPF.

Nathan's answer was (I'm paraphrasing) that so far he had been holding back on the performance aspect because he needed to concentrate on the technical difficulty of his programs. And that for the JGPF, he should be able to improve the performance aspect.

Yes, I just watched the clip you attached to the post you made earlier. He's great!! Also, with Rafael A. as his coach, he has everything going for him. I will also add that having a rink full of Champions skating around you on a daily basis......Can't Hurt!!!! I'm excited to see more of him. Has he decided to compete at Senior Worlds if he makes the Senior Team or will compete as a Junior no matter what?

Competing at Senior worlds this season is one of Nathan's goals, per the quote from July in my post earlier tonight (#642 on page 43 of this thread).

http://goldenskate.com/forum/showth...ng-2015-2016&p=1240888&viewfull=1#post1240888​

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... did anybody see Vincent Zhou making the JGPF before he actually did? ...

Congratulations to Vincent .
(I would say that his first silver in Slovakia created a lot of anticipation/optimism that he could make the JGPF. It obviously wasn't a sure thing, but his chances did look good. And the anticipation/optimism only increased after his second silver in Austria.)

 

[andromache]

:sarcasm:

So the only thing we've seen of Adam so far this season is a scrappy SP with a fall on a 4Lz<< (and who by your admission is subject to meltdowns), but he still ranks above Max who had a clean, new PB SP at Nebelhorn and came close to his PCS PB in the FS there in spite of two popped quads. Yeah, okay. Fine.

I want to love this thread. I want to love a thread where the main goal is to discuss and support US men. We have a ton of depth, so there's a ton to support.

But apparently no one is allowed to support Max if they also support Adam without being shamed for it?

I also read the State of the Russian Ladies thread, where there is arguably more depth and chances for World medals than the US men. However, no one there tries to make anyone feel bad for supporting the skaters they support. Again, I think it's bad to say that you don't want a skater to make the team or you want them to skate poorly. But trying to make someone feel bad for seeing your favorite skater as a realistic shot at the World team, just because they didn't rank him as number one or two? This thread gets more sad every time I read it.

 

[4everchan]

I want to love this thread. I want to love a thread where the main goal is to discuss and support US men. We have a ton of depth, so there's a ton to support.

But apparently no one is allowed to support Max if they also support Adam without being shamed for it?

I also read the State of the Russian Ladies thread, where there is arguably more depth and chances for World medals than the US men. However, no one there tries to make anyone feel bad for supporting the skaters they support. Again, I think it's bad to say that you don't want a skater to make the team or you want them to skate poorly. But trying to make someone feel bad for seeing your favorite skater as a realistic shot at the World team, just because they didn't rank him as number one or two? This thread gets more sad every time I read it.

i like your post... i actually do support Canadian men of course... lol but i like jeremy, adam, joshua and max... people might think: why??? there are totally different... how can you.... well i appreciate their diverse qualities... I agree with you... it's not because I like Chan that I would have to hate Nam... or Gracie VS Ashely VS Mirai Vs POlina... why can't we support more than one skater? anyways... i walk away silently and look for the canadian men thread that doesn't even exist...

 

[karne]

But apparently no one is allowed to support Max if they also support Adam without being shamed for it?

Now you're just reading stuff into my post that wasn't there. It was a blunt comment on the illogical ranking of Adam above Max at this point in the season when by directly comparing their outings this season - the ONLY available current evidence - Max is CLEARLY on top.

It's not like I can "shame" anybody for liking chalk and cheese skaters, for goodness' sake.

 

[Skater Boy]

Until a US Man beats a relatively clean Jason, especially with Josh ( My Favorite ) out for most, if not all of the season. I'd have to put my money on Jason. He has IMO, one of the best coaches in the world and I have never ( Personally ) seen him have a melt down on the ice which is more than I can say for Adam, Jeremy, and Ross. Max still has PCS problems and until I see a few of his GP performances, I can't put him ahead of Jason on my list.

I admit to knowing next to nothing about Nathan so I can't really comment on him at this point. He's obviously done well on the JGP so, I'll definitely be paying close attention to him. Without Nathan I'd rank the US Men in the following order.

#1 Jason #2 Adam #3 Max

Can someone shed some light on Nathan for me. How is as a competitor? I mean, I LOVE Jeremey when he skates well but, I can never relax and enjoy his skating ( Insert Ice Wine Here ) because he's let the pressure get to him for so many years now. I'm kind of indifferent when it comes to Ross and Richard. I like them but.......I don't think the international judges feel the same way.

Without Josh, I'm definitely worried for the US Men. However, this could be a huge opportunity for someone like Nathan to really make a move at Nationals and Worlds.

I think quad or no quad the media, the judges and the fans (majority) pick Jason - it's his to lose. everyone else keeps on fighitn for the left over spots -Adam, Josh, Ross, Max, Ryan, Nathan and whoever are fighting for leftovers. Jason is the it boy right now.

 

[Jaana]

Brown with his choreography would be impressive with two quads and especially if he had more speed in his skating. His jumps are rather consistent, but it seems to me he muscles them out from almost a standstill position. I just wonder how long his leg muscles will do that without getting injuries?

Nathan Chen is a great junior and I hope that soon he will also be a great senior skater.

 

[thedybbuk]

And, on a completely different note, as a wannabe fan, is anyone else disappointed by Adam's SP? I'm not feeling it, I'm not loving the kick posing (I love kick posing when it makes sense, here it's not making sense to me), I'm not seeing the real drama I like when Adam is on.

And if he doesn't stop trying that quad lutz, interrupting all the flow of his program, and again when he's on, I love Adam's flow, I will *really* feel like slapping Rafa upside his head.

I don't particularly like it either. I feel like Rippon gets a lot of praise as one of the real "artistic" skaters (often compared favorably to skaters like Max - unfairly in my opinion), but I find this program fairly heavy on crossovers and general waiting around for the next jump or spin. And what choreography that there is, I don't really think matches the music that well. Well, just my two cents.

 

[karne]

I am a little confused as to why Rippon and his team seem to be so intent on pursuing a course that is clearly never going to work. The 4Lz is never close, and it disrupts the flow of the program. Why not take it out and work on program consistency?

 

[Mrs. P]

Brown with his choreography would be impressive with two quads and especially if he had more speed in his skating. His jumps are rather consistent, but it seems to me he muscles them out from almost a standstill position. I just wonder how long his leg muscles will do that without getting injuries?

Nathan Chen is a great junior and I hope that soon he will also be a great senior skater.

I don't agree that Jason muscles though jumps. He tends to telegraph a bit on the 3A mainly, but he actually get a nice snap on them most of the time.

Jason credits his flexibility for his ability to stay injury free for the most part. I believe that does help in jumping, though I am not able to articulate how.

In person, Jason is not the fastest skater ever, but he's not Caroline Z slow either.

 

[Weathergal]

Andromache, I think you--and other posters--have made some good points on the previous pages that things can get a wee bit negative at times and that right now in US men's skating, we have "a good problem to have." We have lots of great skaters contending for those few World's spots.

While I certainly have my favorites, there are no US male skaters I dislike. (And in the bigger scheme of things, I don't really care where a skater comes from--I like skaters from all over the world!)

I don't get some of the Jason hate and Max hate, in particular, that I've seen. If one--or both--isn't your cup of tea, so be it. But there's a fine line between expressing your opinion and saying why you think Skater A will be successful over Skater B or why you prefer Skater A over Skater B (as we all know, sometimes our favorites are not necessarily the ones we think will be the most successful, ex. Sean Rabbitt ) and putting down someone for liking a particular skater or trashing a skater just to make your favorite look better.

I confess to watching Jason's "Riverdance" Nationals performance a few (ahem!) times, and although I was never a fan of her commentary, I always liked something Sandra Bezic said. "And that's what's exciting about figure skating it is can accept all kinds..." She and Tom Hammond were discussing how there's room for all kinds of skating and there's something to like about all of them.

I for one enjoy both Jason and Max's skating--even though they do have very different strengths and styles. And while I'm thrilled that Jason is pulling off some beautiful quads (in practice anyway!) I'm also excited about Max's improvements in his presentation. But that doesn't mean I don't like Josh (far from it) or Adam (although I'm wishing he'd ditch the 4Lz for now), etc. I also like skaters like Rabbitt (and I love his red hair! ), who bring something special to the ice even if they're not a contender for one of those spots.

And who knows how Chen will fit into all of this? I can't wait for the end of January even though I hate the winter!

 

[StitchMonkey]

I am a little confused as to why Rippon and his team seem to be so intent on pursuing a course that is clearly never going to work. The 4Lz is never close, and it disrupts the flow of the program. Why not take it out and work on program consistency?

Well I think the big thing is that his 4T is not really any better. If he went quadless he likely would get at least as much quad pressure as Jason if not more - I could see him getting it worse as he has tried it before, so not now can be seen as a decline or a reduction in difficulty. There also could be a perception that there is not really room for more than one quadless skater that makes up for it in other ways in the USA. So he needs to work on adding a quad in much the same way Jason does.

I accept he likely needs to be working on a quad as that is just where the wind is blowing. If he wants to work on 4Z over 4T, I don't have much issue. He likes the lutz better, he feels better working on the lutz, fine work on the lutz over the toe. I doubt he is going to have better luck with a 4T if he is wishing he was doing a 4Z. I frankly see it as more of a personal preference choice than a reflection of ability or perceived ability. I don't have much of an issue with a skater working on the quad they prefer... but to be honest the fact that Adam attempts a 4Z over a 4T does not really impress me much or make me see him as better somehow than the 4T guys. It does not really give him an edge in my mind.

 

[andromache]

Well I think the big thing is that his 4T is not really any better. If he went quadless he likely would get at least as much quad pressure as Jason if not more - I could see him getting it worse as he has tried it before, so not now can be seen as a decline or a reduction in difficulty. There also could be a perception that there is not really room for more than one quadless skater that makes up for it in other ways in the USA. So he needs to work on adding a quad in much the same way Jason does.

I accept he likely needs to be working on a quad as that is just where the wind is blowing. If he wants to work on 4Z over 4T, I don't have much issue. He likes the lutz better, he feels better working on the lutz, fine work on the lutz over the toe. I doubt he is going to have better luck with a 4T if he is wishing he was doing a 4Z. I frankly see it as more of a personal preference choice than a reflection of ability or perceived ability. I don't have much of an issue with a skater working on the quad they prefer... but to be honest the fact that Adam attempts a 4Z over a 4T does not really impress me much or make me see him as better somehow than the 4T guys. It does not really give him an edge in my mind.

This seems like the most accurate answer. Adam keeps the 4lutz in for the same reason Jason's been putting a <<4T in his programs--working on it in practice with varying amounts of success, and trying to get the jump eventually. I do think Adam's probably not as likely to get it as Jason is, primarily due to his age. But at least he's attempting it, because he doesn't think he can make the Worlds team without at least attempting a quad. It would be stunning if he could rotate and land it in competition one day but I'm not counting on it. Still, good luck to him!

ETA: And congrats to Adam for winning the LP today and silver overall! Not a perfect program, but throwing the 3A into the second half was great!

 

[aromaticchicken]

So... Just wanted to point out that no one has mentioned in the last five pages that Nathan can actually go to both junior and senior world's, he doesn't only have to go one or the other. And yes, if he places on the podium at nationals as I predict, he has already accomplished enough this year to merit it. (though if others arrive at the senior Grand prix with equally good results that doesn't mean they wouldnt merit it more too).

I think it's a really good point that sending him to senior worlds now is crucial for setting him up against his rivals who are also going to senior world's despite also skating "juniorish" : shoma, Nam, samohin, etc.

Chen was sidelined last year due to injury. Otherwise if he had done as well as he could've at junior world's and jgpf he would already be senior full time anyway. Kind of silly people want to hold him back because they are afraid he will knock off their old favorites.

I'm looking at you, @karne. You seem afraid that he might oust max, Josh, or Jason off the podium. But again, there are three spots. And I have faith that as much as the federation likes him, they will not place Nathan over them if they at least skate decently well at nationals (not even saying perfect) - - because they too recognize he is still relatively less mature.

Let's not use 2011 where lots of skaters bombed as an example. I am just hoping the 2016 men's (and ladies) even at nationals is as exciting and competitive and clean as 2015.

 

[ice coverage]

So... Just wanted to point out that no one has mentioned in the last five pages that Nathan can actually go to both junior and senior world's, he doesn't only have to go one or the other. ...

I think most of us do remember that Nam went to Junior and Senior worlds in the same year. (And that Seguin/Bilodeau competed at both within the same year, IIRC?)

But is it realistic that USFS would be willing to assign one man to both?
What is the track record of USFS in this regard?

I am completely open-minded that Nathan deserves a chance to earn a Senior spot -- just as Max, Josh, Jason, etc., deserve their chances to earn one.

But if Nathan earns an assignment to Senior worlds, then off the top of my head, I think :think: I would hope that USFS would spread the wealth and give the Junior slots to other men. (But can't swear that I would not end up changing my mind .)

 

[Sydney Rose]

And, on a completely different note, as a wannabe fan, is anyone else disappointed by Adam's SP? I'm not feeling it, I'm not loving the kick posing (I love kick posing when it makes sense, here it's not making sense to me), I'm not seeing the real drama I like when Adam is on.

I'm very disappointed. It's a great piece of music and I believe Adam has the potential to really rock it. But I'm not liking that choreography either. And yes, what is it with all this kick posing all of a sudden? Is that the Rohene influence?

Just watched Adam's long and am not impressed with that either. If you're going to do Sergeant Pepper, then I say do it all the way. None of this "Yesterday" in the middle of it. It comes across to me as amateurish and even juvenile. Adam was doing better programs when he was 20 years old.

Where is Rafael in all of this? Isn't it his job to make sure Adam is "packaged" as well as possible?

 

[andromache]

I'm very disappointed. It's a great piece of music and I believe Adam has the potential to really rock it. But I'm not liking that choreography either. And yes, what is it with all this kick posing all of a sudden? Is that the Rohene influence?

Just watched Adam's long and am not impressed with that either. If you're going to do Sergeant Pepper, then I say do it all the way. None of this "Yesterday" in the middle of it. It comes across to me as amateurish and even juvenile. Adam was doing better programs when he was 20 years old.

Where is Rafael in all of this? Isn't it his job to make sure Adam is "packaged" as well as possible?

I like the choreo in both programs, especially the short. But the music cuts in the LP are atrocious. It seems very disjointed.

 

[aromaticchicken]

I think most of us do remember that Nam went to Junior and Senior worlds in the same year. (And that Seguin/Bilodeau competed at both within the same year, IIRC?)

But is it realistic that USFS would be willing to assign one man to both?
What is the track record of USFS in this regard?

I am completely open-minded that Nathan deserves a chance to earn a Senior spot -- the same as Jason, Max, etc., deserve their chances to earn one.

But if Nathan is chosen for Senior worlds, then off the top of my head, I think :think: I would hope that USFS would spread the wealth and give the Junior slots to other men. (But can't swear that I would not end up changing my mind .)

I think the whole reason Nathan has hype is because he *is* an exception. There are few instances where the US sends a skater to both because it's rare that a junior skater comes along and knocks the socks off of people while being eligible for both.

One last notable case would be Michelle Kwan, who placed 2nd in nationals in 1994 and was sent to both worlds, where she placed 7th, and junior world's, which she won. (notably, after being left off the Olympic team for Nancy and Tonya.)

This isn't the same as when Adam rippon won junior world's without a triple axel: Nathan has two quads and two axels. He has senior technical content. And while he is nowhere as artistic as Jason or Josh, he's got great skating skills and isn't at all as robotic/horrible/lifeless so people would like you to believe.

It also isn't the same as when, as Karne likes to bring up constantly and incorrectly, Josh and Jason were "held back" from senior world's. No! Josh and Jason were never top 3 national medalists until the past few years. And in this case, if Nathan places off the podium, *no one* (or at least, very few people) are suggesting he should be sent to senior world's over the others.

Nathan will go to junior world's at the very least. It's not just about other opportunities: it's about spots. How well the juniors do this year affect how many jgp and junior world spots the US gets next year. The federation wants to send Vincent and Nathan to get three spots back at world's and retain the maximum two per junior grand prix we currently have.

If he does not place on the podium, I highly doubt the usfs will send him to world's. In fact, I'm willing to bet a limb over it haha

 

[noskates]

Just watched Adam's SP and LP and, quite frankly, I like them both. IF he could skate that SP cleanly his PCS is going through the roof. I don't get the problem with the leg poses. I think his musicality and expression of the program is beautiful. His LP is quite a distraction from what we normally see from Adam but again I liked it! As much as I wished Jeremy could have consistency - I wish it even more for Adam.

 

[ice coverage]

... One last notable case would be Michelle Kwan, who placed 2nd in nationals in 1994 and was sent to both worlds, where she placed 7th, and junior world's, which she won. (notably, after being left off the Olympic team for Nancy and Tonya.)

... Nathan will go to junior world's at the very least. It's not just about other opportunities: it's about spots. How well the juniors do this year affect how many jgp and junior world spots the US gets next year. The federation wants to send Vincent and Nathan to get three spots back at world's and retain the maximum two per junior grand prix we currently have. ...

Thx for the Kwan history.

Hypothetical question:
Would Vincent + Aleksei/Tomoki not be safe enough bets to earn Team USA's Junior slots for the following year? (Meaning without Nathan, if he goes to Senior worlds.)
I do not claim to know the answer ... am not sufficiently familiar with the numbers game for earning Junior slots or with the Junior landscape in general.

Again, you do not have to convince me that Nathan should be in the mix for consideration for Senior worlds.
All I am saying is that I'm not sure I like the idea of him getting both assignments, even though the rules permit both.

 

[TMC]

Finally back home from FT.

I really really loved Adam's free, probably as much as last year. The audience got really into it, too. This is a great vehicle for him and I can totally see him medalling with this program at nationals. The score was appropriate, imo. He is very stylish, and deserves high pe/ch/in scores. His ss and tr are not quite up to those, but as he gets more comfortable I'm sure those numbers will go up also.

The short - well I hate to say this but I was disappointed. The choreography and the music just didn't work together somehow, and it really didn't look like his heart was in it, either. I felt like the music could have been anything. It was really weird. I kept zoning out although he was the skater I was most interested in seeing. I think it must have been competition jitters because today he looked visibly happier to be there. I hope the short will grow on me because Adam is one of my favorite US men. Him and Jason and Max would be my dream Worlds team