Yuzuru Hanyu: 2015-16 Season

[Eloyse]

[/B]
Actually even if Yuzuru doesn't skate clean it is understandable that he gets a higher score than Boyang because his artistry is far more developed than Boyang's artistry and is basically more of a rounded skater than him, so if anyone does bash Yuzuru for leading they're probably casual viewers and don't understand that figure skating is more than getting your jumps done. Anyway let's see in another 2 seasons or so for Boyang to get deserved components and not 'boosted components'

Yes, I know. In the past, when unclean Yuzu got higher score than a clean someone else, people already questioned him a lot, but I supported Yuzu because he indeed has better skating skills and choreography. But Boyang's BV is like 7 points higher than Yuzu's. It is just funny to think that a 4Lz3T,3a,4t sp loses to a 3a,4t,3lz3t(fall). This is vastly different from any of the situations in the past.

Guys, I have no doubt in Yuzu's ability. I have no doubt that Yuzu is improving very fast. Yuzu and Boyang are advancing in two very different ways, one of which will be paid with tons of points, but the other one, we do not know. I mean, point wise, Boyang got 4Lz, thus got 13.7 points. Yuzu got difficult entries and transitions, thus got....what? Well, I don't question Yuzu at all. I support all of his decisions to challenge himself in the way he wants, just like I support Boyang to be the jumping machine which he likes to be. But I am starting to feel upset about Ballade No1. At this point, I can say that this program is really unfortunate. It gives Yuzu so many unnecessary troubles

 

[Eloyse]

But I think it's great that Boyang lands 4lz3t, because it will motivate Yuzu to solve his problems with 3lz3t. Yuzu is a visual learner. He learnt 3a by observing Asada, 4s by observing Fernandez, now it's time to observe Boyang at nhk:gclap:

 

[knghcm]

I was very impressed with Boyang's choreography in his SP (though he needs a more flattering haircut, harkening back to the olden days of Yuzuru's mushroom cut). I'm perfectly happy to see him and Yuzuru (and Shoma) trading podium places in the future, as long as Patrick Chan isn't on it.

 

[xibsuarz]

Yes, I know. In the past, when unclean Yuzu got higher score than a clean someone else, people already questioned him a lot, but I supported Yuzu because he indeed has better skating skills and choreography. But Boyang's BV is like 7 points higher than Yuzu's. It is just funny to think that a 4Lz3T,3a,4t sp loses to a 3a,4t,3lz3t(fall). This is vastly different from any of the situations in the past.

Guys, I have no doubt in Yuzu's ability. I have no doubt that Yuzu is improving very fast. Yuzu and Boyang are advancing in two very different ways, one of which will be paid with tons of points, but the other one, we do not know. I mean, point wise, Boyang got 4Lz, thus got 13.7 points. Yuzu got difficult entries and transitions, thus got....what? Well, I don't question Yuzu at all. I support all of his decisions to challenge himself in the way he wants, just like I support Boyang to be the jumping machine which he likes to be. But I am starting to feel upset about Ballade No1. At this point, I can say that this program is really unfortunate. It gives Yuzu so many unnecessary troubles

What will more than likely help Yuzuru there is his layout and his GOEs. Boyang has his combo and 3A in the first half, Yuzuru has his 4T and combo in the 2nd half. And Yuzuru's 3A and 4T are still better than Boyang's, the height, air position, running edge out of it, transitions into it. Yes, the combo is becoming a bit frustrating but he must have his reason's for keeping it.

And still, I think people see that Boyang's still behind in PCS, look at the COC SP thread, the minority has said that Boyang, having 3 clean jumping passes, should be ahead of Javier even if he had problems with his 4S. Even if Javier doesn't have the best SS, he's still better than Boyang, Yuzuru has some of the best SS and his SP shows it, he will have a (deserved if I may say) wider margin there, even if he makes a mistake. So I don't think Yuzuru will get (much, because none is impossible here) criticism if, with 1 mistake, he's ahead of a clean Boyang.

 

[Meoima]

I will be just angry if Yuzu again will not nail 3lz in short. If that's the case he should drop it for 4S :handw:

Exactly my point, it seems 3lz3T has become a mental block for Yuzuru, and at this point I think even a 4S3T he can do better.

PS: this sport is not like classical music or other types of art where you aim for developing technical side early then wait for musicality and maturity to come soon. This is not the case of "no matter what I play, there will always be a prodigy who plays faster than me". Not because musicians have 50 years career for their musicality and maturity to develop, and skaters only have around 5 years.

 

[Eloyse]

What will more than likely help Yuzuru there is his layout and his GOEs. Boyang has his combo and 3A in the first half, Yuzuru has his 4T and combo in the 2nd half. And Yuzuru's 3A and 4T are still better than Boyang's, the height, air position, running edge out of it, transitions into it. Yes, the combo is becoming a bit frustrating but he must have his reason's for keeping it.

According to Neveitalia, Yuzu landed his 3lz3t at Autumn Classic because the entry was simpler there. He failed at SC because he complicated the entry a little bit. Thus the leaning forward on lutz. This is exactly where the problem lies: as soon as he nails a jump/jump combo, he will feel he is not pushing hard enough. He will add difficulty until he falls again. Same with 4t. Just compare SC with Autumn Classic, we can easily see the difference. It almost seems like he takes more pleasure from hurts and falls. This mentality will result in very few clean programs from him. He just has to complicate the already complicated situation.

About nhk, I actually hope the judges will lower his PCS a bit should he fail again. He needs a hard fall (in the score) to understand when to stop. He has a grand vision, but maybe sometimes he should be more strategic (i.e. give up the entry, give up the combo, pay no attention to the music beat, try 4t3t, etc.)

 

[xibsuarz]

About nhk, I actually hope the judges will lower his PCS a bit should he fail again. He needs a hard fall (in the score) to understand when to stop. He has a grand vision, but maybe sometimes he should be more strategic (i.e. give up the entry, give up the combo, pay no attention to the music beat, try 4t3t, etc.)

I doubt that's gonna happen at NHK, he's one of their stars skating at home. But his PCS did went down in the FS at SC. But you're right, sometimes he needs to focus on just landing the jumps however he can, work on its consistency, AND THEN add the difficulty once it's consistent. And if that doesn't work, step back and work form there again. I'm surprised that, given how strategic his programs and trainings are in terms of points, that he hasn't done that. Guess he's too eager to go for the hard stuff.

 

[oriquey]

A fun, not-so-serious read for today in regards to beloved Pooh-san: http://www.buzzfeed.com/juliegerstein/winnie-the-pooh-is-a-girl-you-guys#.hc6OyrBxO

Highlights:
1) The Bear that inspired the creation of Pooh was remotely Canadian. (See, Brian? Something in common with your co-coach).
2) A recent book theorised that Winnie the Pooh is a girl (Although I vote on Gender non-conformism XD)

 

[gsyzf]

Yes, I know. In the past, when unclean Yuzu got higher score than a clean someone else, people already questioned him a lot, but I supported Yuzu because he indeed has better skating skills and choreography. But Boyang's BV is like 7 points higher than Yuzu's. It is just funny to think that a 4Lz3T,3a,4t sp loses to a 3a,4t,3lz3t(fall). This is vastly different from any of the situations in the past.

Difficulty is not only reflected in the BV. Boyang’s BV maybe 7 points higher than Yuzu’s SP. But Yuzu’s more difficult spins, steps and transitions are not reflected in the BV. If you take those into account, Yuzu’s SP maybe more difficult, at least not less difficult than Boyang’s SP. (There are no official BV for the transitions, and the levels of spins and steps don’t truly indicate the difficulty of spins and steps. So it’s hard to have an exact measure of difficulty of the overall program. ) Yuzu’s quality is much better than Boyang’s in every aspect. So an unclean Yuzu getting a higher score than a clean Boyang is understandable. It’s different from the situation where a skater with an easy program scoring higher than another skater with a more difficult program. It’s a skater doing a program with similar difficulty, but much better quality scoring higher another skater with worse quality.

In general, it’s not too difficult to defend Yuzu’s scores because he has difficulty in everything and quality in everything. Regardless what you prefer, whether it’s quality or difficulty, Yuzu’s scores in general are justified.

But I am starting to feel upset about Ballade No1. At this point, I can say that this program is really unfortunate. It gives Yuzu so many unnecessary troubles

I think he keeps the same jump layout (of both his SP and LP) for two years. In the first year, he has less difficult transitions. In the second year, he adds more difficult transitions to his programs. Since he didn’t upgrade his layout last year due to a number of reasons, he skipped his first year plan and fast forwarded to his 2nd year plan this season. So he is doing lots of difficult transitions this season. Those transitions/entries are what give him so much trouble in the SP. But he doesn’t have too much troubles with the transitions in the LP and the transitions in the LP are even more difficult than in the SP.

I don’t think he will go for a 4 quad program in the near future. It maybe an option he considers, but it’s not likely to happen. He can only do a 4-quad program when he is more consistent with a 3 quad program. He can only upgrade his layout one step at a time. I don’t think he has enough time to upgrade his program to a 4 quad program by the Olympics. Most likely, he will replace one of the 4T with a 4Lo in the LP and add another quad to the SP next season. In the following season, i.e. the Olympic season, he will add more difficult transitions to the programs without making major changes to the jump layout (the jump order may change). If he adds 4Lo to his LP, he will have to drop one of the triples if he plans to repeat 3A and 3Lz. I believe he will drop the 3Lo instead of 3F. If he keeps 3Lo in the LP, he will risk zayaking if he pops 4Lo into a 3Lo. He can’t jump 2A or 2Lz, so it will be problematic for him to avoid zayaking if he pops 4Lo into 3Lo. Keeping 3F reduces the risk of zayaking. Also 3F has a higher BV than 3Lo and he gets higher GOE for his 3F than 3Lo.

 

[Meoima]

Difficulty is not only reflected in the BV. Boyang’s BV maybe 7 points higher than Yuzu’s SP. But Yuzu’s more difficult spins, steps and transitions that are not reflected in the BV. If you take those into account, Yuzu’s SP maybe more difficult, at least not less difficult than Boyang’s SP. (There are no official BV for the transitions, and the levels of spins and steps don’t truly indicate the difficulty of spins and steps. So it’s hard to have an exact measure of difficulty of the overall program. ) Yuzu’s quality is much better than Boyang’s in every aspect. So an unclean Yuzu got higher score than a clean Boyang is understandable. It’s different from the situation where a skater with an easy program scoring higher than another skater with a more difficult program. It’s a skater doing a program with similar difficulty, but much better quality scoring higher another skater with worse quality.
In general, it’s not too difficult to defend Yuzu’s scores because he has difficulty in everything and quality in everything. Regardless what you prefer, whether it’s quality or difficulty, Yuzu’s scores in general are justified.

Exactly, the difficulty of a program also lies in the steps, spins and the speed and flow. If you look at a program as just a jumping routine, then there this no need to create any program at all, just go out there and jump from quad to quad and call it a day.

Jumps in FS are the most important, but what you do before and after jumps are not much less important. You can't compare a program without transitions before big jumps with hook landings (let's not forget telegraphing a jump can lead to negative GOE too) to a program with tons of transitions before big jumps and flow at the landing. The former demonstrates just jumping ability, but the later demonstrates both skating and jumping ability.

The ultimate destination of the current system is to reward all skills in a balanced way, not leaving out any skill at all.

 

[ranran]

I think regarding his combo we should see it from athlete point of view. If Yuzu change every jump that he keep failing without conquering his weakness on that particular jump then in the future he will never get consistent at it. He will keep trying and get that combo back. I mean look at his 4S, for the past 2 seasons people keep saying how he should change it to his more stable 4T but luckily Yuzuru is stubborn XD he keep doing it and look at his 4S now. Maybe its hard to stay calm with Yuzuru keep having trouble and rarely skates clean, but for me that is the excitement of being Yuzuru's fan, you will never know what would happened next

 

[Plumededragon]

To be honest with you, I actually yawn when watching Boyang. That's something that rarely happen to me when watching figure skating (including skaters I don't like). Seriously, this guy is no real threat to Yuzu for now. Right now, his lack of artistry penalizes him. Let's wait a few more years and see how he grows before jumping into conclusions. If he does develop his artistry, then yes, he'll be a threat. Right now, Shoma is a more complete skater instead of a jumping machine.

 

[Nontama0817]

To be honest with you, I actually yawn when watching Boyang. That's something that rarely happen to me when watching figure skating (including skaters I don't like). Seriously, this guy is no real threat to Yuzu for now. Right now, his lack of artistry penalizes him. Let's wait a few more years and see how he grows before jumping into conclusions. If he does develop his artistry, then yes, he'll be a threat. Right now, Shoma is a more complete skater instead of a jumping machine.

I totally agree with you. His jump so high, but as a whole he looks somehow still juniorish too me beause of the lack of musicality and arteistry. Maybe because he is too rigid. Looking at him makes me realize how beautiful Yuzu's program is especially Ballad Number 1. But it would be fun to see Yuzu and Boyand at NHK.

 

[yuzuplease]

Seeing Boyang's TES tonight initially made me nervous for Yuzu. However, thinking about it, Yuzu achieved a higher TES in the past with only 2 quads and less than ideal landings. That fact in itself reassured me that Boyang's 4 quads (idk about his whole layout, I don't watch him tbh) isn't that much of a threat to Yuzu, not to mention everyone's point that Yuzu's skating skills are on a much different level. As Brian said in that owl interview, Yuzu looks at the bigger picture. I trust the decisions he has made regarding his layout. (still, #prayercircle for that dang lutz!)

If there is anyone that Yuzu needs to beat, it's himself.

 

[HanDomi]

After seeing today judges PCS love I have started to have doubts about Hanyu PCS at Skate Canada :handw:

 

[Esopian]

Totally agree with you @yuzuplease, I tuned in to watch this year's CoC and wow, there sure is going to be a lot to talk about in both the men's and ladies' field after this event.

Boyang seems to be an extremely eager jumper, I congratulate him for that but the SS need to improve if he wants to be a contender to the top guys(Yuzu, Patrick, Javi) eventually. While watching his FS, I thought of how figure skating as a sport not only includes jumping but also includes artistic presentation which in all, is very important as a whole. What I enjoy about watching figure skating is how skaters express themselves artistically and share the experience with the audience, not just by watching them land jumps. So I'm sure Yuzuru will be fine since he possesses the true essence and heart of figure skating. (apologies for the cheesiness of the last sentence)

 

[Marin]

After seeing today judges PCS love I have started to have doubts about Hanyu PCS at Skate Canada :handw:

Of course Yuzu was underscored in PCS at SC

 

[twitwi]

Totally agree with you @yuzuplease, I tuned in to watch this year's CoC and wow, there sure is going to be a lot to talk about in both the men's and ladies' field after this event.

While watching his FS, I thought of how figure skating as a sport not only includes jumping but also includes artistic presentation which in all, is very important as a whole. What I enjoy about watching figure skating is how skaters express themselves artistically and share the experience with the audience, not just by watching them land jumps. So I'm sure Yuzuru will be fine since he possesses the true essence and heart of figure skating. (apologies for the cheesiness of the last sentence)

I watched his SP last night, it seems at least it is a complete figure skating program, but today, the FS...I turned it off right after 2 min, it is not figure skating...at least not the kind figure skating that I enjoy. The first jump is no doubt beautiful, but the rest of it...still Junior level. I don't think it is good to make a program like that, there's no meaning. You can put a lot of jumps there, of cuz hanyu can jump 4 quads in 4:30 min, but that is called jumping training session.

 

[Pamigena]

After seeing today judges PCS love I have started to have doubts about Hanyu PCS at Skate Canada :handw:

Judges today have been smoking their tea leaves instead of putting them in hot water. Seems to be even more unhealthy than smoking maple leaves :sarcasm:

 

[tzazu]

I watched his SP last night, it seems at least it is a complete figure skating program, but today, the FS...I turned it off right after 2 min, it is not figure skating...at least not the kind figure skating that I enjoy. The first jump is no doubt beautiful, but the rest of it...still Junior level. I don't think it is good to make a program like that, there's no meaning. You can put a lot of jumps there, of cuz hanyu can jump 4 quads in 4:30 min, but that is called jumping training session.

Happened the same to me