2015-16 State of U.S. Men's Figure Skating

[Tavi...]

Mrs P thank you so much! Very interesting data. Quick question: do your numbers only include ISU competitions, or do they also include the summer comps? I'm guessing just ISU, but wanted to check because I think when you originally started this thread Glacier Falls was included - or am I wrong about that?

Aside from that, I was so impressed with Tim Dolensky's FS last night - it was really beautiful, and his headless spins are mind-blowing. And I was happy for Adam that he was able to put two clean programs together - not the result he hoped for, I'm sure, but he seemed very confident and like he was really having fun.

Any thoughts on what happened to Jordan Moeller at the Ice Challenge? It looked to me like it was his first competition of the season and his programs weren't quite performance ready yet. I liked the music for his SP a lot and he did a few things really well but it was uneven.

I think Jason has made real progress with the SP, especially when I think back to Glacier Falls. He's also made a lot of progress with the FS but as his last two comps and Skate Canada have made clear, the mens field is getting ever more competitive and lots of the newer men seem to be taking a page from his book (Max, too, per the new GS article!) and working on their performance skills. One thing we do know is that he'll be working hard to get those jumps where they need to be - it's just a question of how long it will take him to get there.

 

[Mrs. P]

Mrs P thank you so much! Very interesting data. Quick question: do your numbers only include ISU competitions, or do they also include the summer comps? I'm guessing just ISU, but wanted to check because I think when you originally started this thread Glacier Falls was included - or am I wrong about that?

Aside from that, I was so impressed with Tim Dolensky's FS last night - it was really beautiful, and his headless spins are mind-blowing. And I was happy for Adam that he was able to put two clean programs together - not the result he hoped for, I'm sure, but he seemed very confident and like he was really having fun.

Any thoughts on what happened to Jordan Moeller at the Ice Challenge? It looked to me like it was his first competition of the season and his programs weren't quite performance ready yet. I liked the music for his SP a lot and he did a few things really well but it was uneven.

I think Jason has made real progress with the SP, especially when I think back to Glacier Falls. He's also made a lot of progress with the FS but as his last two comps and Skate Canada have made clear, the mens field is getting ever more competitive and lots of the newer men seem to be taking a page from his book (Max, too, per the new GS article!) and working on their performance skills. One thing we do know is that he'll be working hard to get those jumps where they need to be - it's just a question of how long it will take him to get there.

The stats do not include summer comps, but it does include Senior B's that are not counted toward ISU SB (i.e. Autumn Classic).

In the original post, there is a separate section for summer comp scores.

 

[chuckm]

Tim Dolensky was the only US man who got a really great reception from the Canadian audience (maybe because he was 11th after the SP so was no threat to Nam and Chan) for his fantastic freeskate. And it was indeed fantastic! I've seen Tim skate for years, but never like that---he was on fire. He was so disappointed with his SP that he went out determined to do better, and he sure did.

In contrast, Adam Rippon got a less enthusiastic reception, maybe because of his purple hair, bronze tan and red costume, and maybe because he followed Nam Nguyen who had skated a technically clean but uninspiring freeskate to a Bach fugue. The crowd seemed disappointed that Adam placed ahead of Nam, especially since Adam had fallen twice, but then Adam had been 4 points ahead of Nam in the SP and that was the deciding factor.

 

[mrrice]

Good Afternoon everyone, I was just wondering if there has been any information on how Josh is doing?

 

[LRK]

When I saw Timothy's FP, the word that came into my mind was: Redemption. It seemed to me that his skate was a revelation to himself. Curious Question: Has he ever skated that well before? But regardless, I cannot but think that this must have been a huge boost for his confidence going forward.

 

[musicfan80]

I really hope that Tim is using this as a learning experience that makes him prepare to have a great showing at Nationals.

Assuming that Jason and Max (barring meltdowns) are making the top three at U.S. Nationals, that other spot for Boston is wide open.

 

[karne]

Good Afternoon everyone, I was just wondering if there has been any information on how Josh is doing?

No, there has not. Josh being Josh, I imagine the only time we will hear is when he's about to step out for competition...I imagine, if he is well enough, we will see him at a B event in December, perhaps, or even early January, before Nationals, just to work the kinks out. Of course, he has a bye through to Nationals, so that's not a problem.

 

[apgold]

I hope to see Josh back soon - this season is exciting so far but I miss his skating.

I guess we'll have to wait and see (or read into every tweet from his housemate Joe Johnson's Instagram or Twitter, that mentions him lol)!

 

[karne]

I hope to see Josh back soon - this season is exciting so far but I miss his skating.

I guess we'll have to wait and see (or read into every tweet from his housemate Joe Johnson's Instagram or Twitter, that mentions him lol)!

Poor Joe, I wonder if he realises that the Josh fans do that

 

[musicfan80]

Poor Joe, I wonder if he realises that the Josh fans do that

Hmm. I don't think that Joe tweets a lot about home. The main thing I have gotten from Joe's twitter is that Max Settlage does a lot of drawing in his spare time. A lot of it is quite good.

 

[apgold]

After three GP events, what are your thoughts on the US men?

We had two medalists at SA (Max (gold) and Jason (bronze) and two strong 4th place finishes for Adam Rippon at SC and Grant Hochstein at COC. And honorable mention to Tim Dolensky's 7th place finish at SC.

Last season at this stage - we did have three medalists (Jason at SA - Silver, Max at SC - Bronze and Ricky at COC - Bronze) - so in terms of medals, we are behind, but I find myself more impressed with the US men this time around.

 

[Mrs. P]

Grant Hochstein's solid performance at COC, gets him in the top 6 in the SB's average (average rankings by SB overall, SP, FS, and TES/PCS in each!!) Richard Dornbush also improved here (Though still far from his best, so he goes up a few spots too.)

Overall, I think the battle within is quite interesting. The top 4 (Aaron, Brown, Rippon and Chen) have 2 points on the rest of the field, but then it's tight for slots 5-8.

ETA: Those 5-8 spots are so tight that when I realize I goofed on some of the averages it completely changed things...Grant ended up No. 5 and Richard moved up to No. 6 in the SB rankings average, tied with Ross.


SB rankings average (average of SB Overall, SP, FS, TES/PCS scores)
1.) M. Aaron 1.43
2.) J. Brown 2.14
3.) A. Rippon 3.43
4.) N. Chen 4.29
5.) G. Hochstein 6.14
6.) R. Miner 6.57
6.) R. Dornbush 6.57
---
8.) T. Dolensky 6.71
9.) V. Zhou 8.86
10.) S. Rabbit 9.29
11.) A. Johnson 10.71
12.) J. Moeller 11.71

And the average ranking of averages (average of Overall/SP/FS/TES/PCS/Scores)

1.) M. Aaron 2.00
2.) J. Brown 2.43
3.) N. Chen 3.29
4.) A. Rippon 3.71
5.) R. Miner 6.29
6.) G. Hochstein 6.86
---
7.) R. Dornbush 7.43
8.) T. Dolensky 7.57
9.) V. Zhou 8.29
10.) S. Rabbit 8.43
11.) A. Johnson 10.14
12.) J. Moeller 11.43

NEXT: Max Aaron in TEB and Nathan Chen at Tallinn Trophy (Challenger Series). Max will have an opportunity to secure a GPF berth while Chen will make his senior debut, which could impact the numbers.


ETA: And here's a whole bunch of numbers:
Overall (SB)
1.) Max Aaron 258.95 (Skate America)
2.) Jason Brown 240.65 (Ice Challenge)
3.) Adam Rippon 239.69 (Skate Canada)
4.) Nathan Chen 236.76 (JGP USA)
5.) Grant Hochstein 222.74 (Cup of China)
6.) Richard Dornbush 217.26 (Cup of China)
---
7.) Timothy Dolensky 219.06 (Skate Canada)
8.) Ross Miner 215.11
9.) Vincent Zhou 211.96
10.) Sean Rabbit 201.27
11.) Alexander Johnson 196.32
12.) Jordan Moeller 178.21

Overall (average)
1.) Max Aaron 240.95
2.) Jason Brown 239.50
3.) Nathan Chen 236.57
4.) Adam Rippon 231.94
5.) Timothy Dolensky 212.89
6.) Ross Miner 212.52
---
7.) Grant Hochstein 208.81
8.) Vincent Zhou 206.41
9.) Richard Dornbush 204.14
10.) Sean Rabbit 201.27
11.) Alexander Johnson 196.32
12.) Jordan Moeller 178.21

SP Overall (SB)
1.) Max Aaron 86.67
2.) Jason Brown 85.29
3.) Adam Rippon 80.36
4.) Ross Miner 78.96
5.) Nathan Chen 77.94
6.) Grant Hochstein 74.27
7.) Richard Dornbush 70.21
8.) Timothy Dolensky 69.18
9.) Vincent Zhou 68.07
10.) Sean Rabbit 64.75
11.) Jordan Moeller 64.75
12.) Alexander Johnson 63.27

SP Overall (Average)
1.) Max Aaron 85.07
2.) Jason Brown 80.30
3.) Nathan Chen 77.54
4.) Ross Miner 76.81
5.) Adam Rippon 74.83
6.) Grant Hochstein 71.94
--
7.) Richard Dornbush 67.77
8.) Vincent Zhou 67.33
9) Timothy Dolensky 66.05
10.) Sean Rabbit 64.75
11.) Jordan Moeller 63.50
12. Alexander Johnson 63.27

SP TES (SB)
1.) Max Aaron 47.96
2.) Jason Brown 43.84
3.) Nathan Chen 42.48
4.) Ross Miner 41.99
5.) Adam Rippon 41.56
6.) Grant Hochstein 40.59
--
7.) Vincent Zhou 36.66
8.) Richard Dornbush 34.20
9.) Timothy Dolensky 34.08
10.) Alexander Johnson 32.62
11.) Sean Rabbit 32.20
12.) Jordan Moeller 31.90

SP TES (Average)
1.) Max Aaron 46.87
2.) Nathan Chen 42.34
3.) Grant Hochstein 39.51
4.) Ross Miner 39.15
5.) Jason Brown 38.93
6.) Adam Rippon 37.48
--
7.) Vincent Zhou 36.57
8.) Alexander Johnson 32.62
9.) Richard Dornbush 32.32
10.) Sean Rabbit 32.20
11.) Jordan Moeller 31.90
12.) Tim Dolensky 31.83


SP PCS (SB)
1.) Jason Brown 42.07
2.) Adam Rippon 39.80
3.) Max Aron 38.71
4.) Ross Miner 38.35
5.) Richard Dornbush 38.01
6.) Nathan Chen 34.93
--
7.) Timothy Dolensky 34.87

8.) Grant Hochstein 33.68
9.) Sean Rabbit 33.55
10.) Alexander Johnson 32.65
11.) Jordan Moeller 31.90
12.) Vincent Zhou 30.92

SP PCS (Average)
1.) Jason Brown 41.21
2.) Adam Rippon 38.35
3.) Max Aaron 38.20
4.) Ross Miner 37.66
5.) Richard Dornbush 36.41
6.) Nathan Chen 35.20
--
7.) Timothy Dolensky 33.56
8.) Sean Rabbit 33.55
9.) Grant Hochstein 32.93
10.) Alexander Johnson 32.65
11.) Jordan Moeller 31.60
12.) Vincent Zhou 30.52

FS Total (SB)
1.) Max Aaron 176.65
2.) Jason Brown 162.39
3.) Nathan Chen 159.63
4.) Adam Rippon 159.33
5.) Timothy Dolensky 156.60
6.) Grant Hochstein 148.47
--
7.) Richard Dornbush 147.05
8.) Vincent Zhou 145.37
9.) Sean Rabbit 136.95
10.) Ross Miner 136.16
11.) Alexander Johnson 133.05
12.) Jordan Moeller 114.71

FS Total (Average)
1.) Nathan Chen 159.03
2.) Jason Brown 158.89
3.) Max Aaron 158.07
4.) Adam Rippon 157.11
5.) Tim Dolensky 146.83
6.) Vincent Zhou 139.08
--
7.) Sean Rabbit 136.95

8.) Richard Dornbush 136.67
9.) Grant Hochstein 136.88
10.) Ross Miner 135.72
11.) Alexander Johnson 133.05
12.) Jordan Moeller 114.71

FS TES (SB)
1.) Max Aaron 90.98
2.) Nathan Chen 88.69
3.) Timothy Dolensky 83.98
4.) Adam Rippon 80.47
5.) Jason Brown 79.69
6.) Vincent Zhou 75.29
--
7.) Richard Dornbush 71.53
8.) Grant Hochstein 70.75
9.) Sean Rabbit 65.05
10.) Ross Miner 63.29
11.) Alexander Johnson 62.95
12.) Jordan Moeller 52.21

FS TES (Averages)
1.) Nathan Chen 87.28
2.) Max Aaron 78.73
3.) Adam Rippon 78.63
4.) Jason Brown 76.17
5.) Timothy Dolensky 76.09
6.) Vincent Zhou 71.22
--
7.) Grant Hochstein 66.34
8.) Sean Rabbit 65.05
9.) Richard Dornbush 63.66
10.) Alexander Johnson 62.95
11.) Ross Miner 62.48
12.) Jordan Moeller 52.21

FS PCS (SB)
1.) Jason Brown 85.36
2.) Max Aaron 81.30
3.) Adam Rippon 80.86
4.) Grant Hochstein 77.72
5.) Richard Dornbush 77.52
6.) Ross Miner 74.85
--
7.) Nathan Chen 73.56
8.) Sean Rabbit 72.90
9.) Timothy Dolensky 72.62
10.) Alexander Johnson 71.10
11.) Vincent Zhou 70.08
12.) Jordan Moeller 64.50

FS PCS (Average)
1.) Jason Brown 83.69
2.) Adam Rippon 78.83
3.) Max Aaron 77.15
4.) Richard Dornbush 74.71
5.) Ross Miner 74.23
6.) Sean Rabbit 72.90
--
7.) Nathan Chen 72.25
8.) Grant Hochstein 71.54
9.) Alexander Johnson 71.10
10.) Timothy Dolensky 70.74
11.) Vincent Zhou 68.36
12.) Jordan Moeller 64.50

 

[karne]

After three GP events, what are your thoughts on the US men?

We had two medalists at SA (Max (gold) and Jason (bronze) and two strong 4th place finishes for Adam Rippon at SC and Grant Hochstein at COC. And honorable mention to Tim Dolensky's 7th place finish at SC.

Last season at this stage - we did have three medalists (Jason at SA - Silver, Max at SC - Bronze and Ricky at COC - Bronze) - so in terms of medals, we are behind, but I find myself more impressed with the US men this time around.

With all due respect to Adam and Grant, I'm not sure their fourths were really all that "strong"...I don't think any of the men have had really "strong" outings on the GP so far except for Max. Timothy probably had the next-best outing with that great FS. But Jason, Adam, Grant and Ricky all had error-ridden programs both short and long, so I wouldn't call them "strong".

JMHO.

NEXT: Max Aaron in TEB and Nathan Chen at Tallinn Trophy (Challenger Series). Max will have an opportunity to secure a GPF berth while Chen will make his senior debut, which could impact the numbers.

I believe Timothy will be at Tallinn too. He was added very recently.

 

[Weathergal]

I believe Timothy will be at Tallinn too. He was added very recently.

Timothy Dolensky is listed on the entries list for the Tallinn Trophy.

(It appears Grant Hochstein and Richard Dornbush are the substitutes for the US.)

 

[noskates]

Right now - I wouldn't bet on any of the US Men to be in the top 3 at Nationals. I think the competition is wide open. Max has the jumps, Jason has the smooth consistent program, Ricky is a headcase but oh how I wish he could skate a clean program, Adam has it all but never seems to quite get it together. Tim remains to be seen, Nathan has the jumps but doens't have the mature performance of some of the other guys....... Sure wish Josh was in the mix. There's still a lot of Grand Prix left so it might shake out. But boy howdy is Nationals going to be interesting.

 

[Ice Dance]

Timothy Dolensky is listed on the entries list for the Tallinn Trophy.

(It appears Grant Hochstein and Richard Dornbush are the substitutes for the US.)

I think Timothy is now the first substitute. http://www.isuresults.com/events/cat00028390.htm

It's Max vs. Nathan.

Here we go . . .

 

[aromaticchicken]

I think Timothy is now the first substitute. http://www.isuresults.com/events/cat00028390.htm

It's Max vs. Nathan.

Here we go . . .

Lol max versus Nathan? What? Have we all the sudden forgotten about all those other men who beat both of them at nationals last year? Last year everyone was unremarkable on the GP too... And all the sudden Adam and Josh nearly took the crown. Jason's also notably never really had a bad skate at nationals: kori has trained him every year since he was a kid competing in novice and even below to peak at nationals, in fact.

It's wide open.

 

[Mrs. P]

Lol max versus Nathan? What? Have we all the sudden forgotten about all those other men who beat both of them at nationals last year? Last year everyone was unremarkable on the GP too... And all the sudden Adam and Josh nearly took the crown. Jason's also notably never really had a bad skate at nationals: kori has trained him every year since he was a kid competing in novice and even below to peak at nationals, in fact.

It's wide open.

I think Ice Dance means the head-to-head match up at Tallian Trophy.

And Jason did have a bad skate at 2012 Nationas when he fell three times and fell from 6th to 9th.

 

[Weathergal]

Thanks for the update Ice Dance--changed from when I last saw it.

 

[Ice Dance]

Lol max versus Nathan?

Yes, it's a head-to-head competition. They're both in Tallinn. And since Nathan & Max didn't compete in any of the same summer competitions, it's the first time they will go head-to-head this season. It's also Nathan's international senior debut so we'll see what he can score with the quad in his short program, assuming he does it. And we'll have an actual set of scores to compare between the current top-scoring American junior and the current top-scoring American senior in the same competition during the regular season. I'd prefer to see this head-to-head happen. As I said much earlier in this thread, one of my main concerns about Nathan staying junior was that he could be bypassed by the selection committee at Nationals without having previously competed on a level playing field. Estonia fits that bill. We all know Max is likely to win. But I'd rather see it happen on the ice than theoretically in everyone's mind. There are also a bunch of other talented guys at this event, but--you know--this is the U.S. Men's thread.