Mishin's opinion on components based on Jin

[UnChosen]

When the men start to regularly break 100 in TES, all the ISU has to do is change the factoring of PCS to reflect whatever new threshold number is established for TES. So hypothetical: top TES men regularly receive TES scores slightly over 100. Assume the new TES ceiling is 110. Make the new PCS ceiling 110. This means that the more "artistic" skaters attributes are not being undervalued relative to TES.

Since the top skaters cannot even break 90 TES on a regular basis PCS is actually overvalued right now. Another problem is that skaters get double score in TES and PCS though skating skills, because doing steps into jumps for some reason boost PCS and the GOE of the jumps at the same time. The way I see it GOE should be judged purely on the jump, the preceding transitions should only be reflected in the SS/TR mark.

 

[andromache]

So you want to see only quantity or only quality or both? Stop talking about this, look at the quantity alone and ignore the quality is good for the sport? Or ignore the quantity and keep the same low BV for years is better for the sport?
Both are unbalanced.

My proposal is simple, adjusting the TES so there will be no positive GOE. Top skaters with low BV can not depend on their GOE and PCS for too long. They should choose to upgrade their BV or to skate as clean as possible and wait for skaters with higher BV to make mistake. And skater who have high BV but poor quality will spend more time on polishing their skills to get full BV of their layout, if they do not execute their layout with ease and flow, they can't take BV for granted.

...I don't see how your solution is much different than the current system. A skater with high GOE and PCS but low BV already does skate as clean as possible to maximize the skills they do have and hope others make mistakes. And skaters with high BV but poor quality are certainly aiming to polish their skills to get high GOE and PCS.

 

[Meoima]

...I don't see how your solution is much different than the current system. A skater with high GOE and PCS but low BV already does skate as clean as possible to maximize the skills they do have and hope others make mistakes. And skaters with high BV but poor quality are certainly aiming to polish their skills to get high GOE and PCS.

Well, the scores range might be smaller. For example the current system allow the gap of 20 to even 30 points thanks to too much +GOE.
But if you only give out deductions, then the final score gaps might be just around 1-8. And in some cases, the result might be different from the system with too much reward.

 

[andromache]

Since the top skaters cannot even break 90 TES on a regular basis PCS is actually overvalued right now. Another problem is that skaters get double score in TES and PCS though skating skills, because doing steps into jumps for some reason boost PCS and the GOE of the jumps at the same time. The way I see it GOE should be judged purely on the jump, the preceding transitions should only be reflected in the SS/TR mark.

Men aren't regularly breaking 90 on PCS either though.

There may be an argument for steps/transitions being double-rewarded, but I'm too tired to think about it.

 

[andromache]

Well, the scores range might be smaller. For example the current system allow the gap of 20 to even 30 points thanks to too much +GOE.
But if you only give out deductions, then the final score gaps might be just around 1-8. And in some cases, the result might be different from the system with too much reward.

So are you essentially proposing to reward less for quality? Sorry, just trying to figure out how this works out.

 

[UnChosen]

Men aren't regularly breaking 90 on PCS either though.

True, but those who can break 90 PCS definitely had more cases of bomba TES than their PCS dropping significantly.

 

[Meoima]

So are you essentially proposing to reward less for quality? Sorry, just trying to figure out how this works out.

Higher deduction for badly executed elements too. So yes, less reward for quality because currently there has been too much +GOE leads to huge score gap in the final placement, but this also means more deduction for poor execution and falls.

 

[Sandpiper]

Higher deduction for badly executed elements too. So yes, less reward for quality because currently there has been too much +GOE leads to huge score gap in the final placement, but this also means more deduction for poor execution and falls.

I wouldn't mind seeing more deductions for poorly executed elements (but I mean outright falls/step-outs, not things like "eh, there wasn't enough flow on the landing"). But lessening the reward for quality... I dunno. I don't want, say, Yuzuru's jumps to be worth only a tiny bit more than Shoma's.

 

[Eloyse]

This is easy
1. Punish pre rotation and hook landing. Uno's tes will be crushed.
2. -3 for a fall. Bye bye to Yuzuru's insanely high tes
3. Change GOE range to -4~+3 for triples and -5~+3 for quadruples. Boyang's TES will be contained, as he usually has a lot of negative GOEs in the free skate.
No need to worry about Patrick Chan and Fernandez, because they can't even usually get 90+ in TES, not to mention 100+. So, problem solved, I guess.

 

[Meoima]

This is easy
1. Punish pre rotation and hook landing. Uno's tes will be crushed.
2. -3 for a fall. Bye bye to Yuzuru's insanely high tes
3. Change GOE range to -4~+3 for triples and -5~+3 for quadruples. Boyang's TES will be contained, as he usually has a lot of negative GOEs in the free skate.
No need to worry about Patrick Chan and Fernandez, because they can't even usually get 90+ in TES, not to mention 100+. So, problem solved, I guess.

Yes, my point is that, punish more and more.
Kill those jumps with hook landings, pre-rotation, jumps with no flow, more deduction for falls, more negative GOE for bad spins...:dev2:
You land it does not mean you should get full credit for it because it looks so bad. :furious:
Happy belated Halloween!

 

[scintillant]

A fall is already -4 for a quad, -3 for triples.
Yuzu gets high TES even with a fall (or two) because of his high BV and +GOEs for the jumps he lands cleanly, like his 3As in the 2nd half.

 

[krispy]

First of all I think Boyang's presentation skills is overly underestimated. Jin actually has some polish he has long elongated lines, has fluid movements and actually points his feet. MANY of the top skaters that gets high PCS doesn't even do that! Last season hardly anybody complained how Nam got mid-7's higher than Jin when he's skating skill's are even weaker. How is he different than Tuktamesheva who's program is as empty and gets 8's in PCS

Second I think its ridiculous the thought of PCS not being high enough! Patrick, Yuzuru and Javier is getting 30-40 point gap if you add the SP and FS together vs the rest of the field thats worth 3-4 quads right there and people think thats not enough?

Jin is trying to win through an insanely high TES to compensate the PCS gap. Isn't that how this system is supposed to work? some people don't complain when its the reverse and people win because of insanely high PCS but has low TES

 

[Eloyse]

Yes, my point is that, punish more and more.
Kill those jumps with hook landings, pre-rotation, jumps with no flow, more deduction for falls, more negative GOE for bad spins...
You land it does not mean you should get full credit for it because it looks so bad. :furious:
Happy belated Halloween!

Yes, exactly. I agree with every word you said. Cheers and happy Halloween to you too:thumbsup:eace:

 

[Jaana]

I think the judges were way too generous with Jin´s freeskate PCS in Cup of China, especially in choreography, transitions and interpretation which should have been much, much lower. But what an amazing jumper he is, WOW! In my opinion though quantity should never compensates quality. If he manages to conquer those areas one day, he will be a real threat.

My complaint with judging has been for quite some time that skaters from a certain country seem to be getting too high PCS against those who have a real choreography (not just in footwork), are doing transitions and difficult jump entries.

 

[alia jackson]

So are you essentially proposing to reward less for quality? Sorry, just trying to figure out how this works out.

Higher deduction for badly executed elements too. So yes, less reward for quality because currently there has been too much +GOE leads to huge score gap in the final placement, but this also means more deduction for poor execution and falls.

So Meioma you suggesting no/less reward for difficulty and quality of jump :think:. Meaning for examples this eagle sandwich 3A or this back counter 3A to spread eagle, you want these to get the same score as this 3A :con3:

 

[qwertyskates]

When you keep talking about Boyang while in fact the matter is not just about him, one can wonder maybe you only want to talk about him.

So you want to see only quantity or only quality or both? Do you want to look at the quantity alone and ignore the quality is good for the sport? Or ignore the quantity and keep the same low BV for years is better for the sport?

Both are unbalanced.

Look at the title of the thread again, it says clearly it's about Mishin's comments about Jin. You were the one who declared Jin to be "*my* favourite skater", simply because I opined that you don't change the rules when a new skater arrives with a special technical talent and does well under the rules, that's like shifting the goalposts, it doesn't matter if it's Jin or any other skater, you just shouldn't do that, you don't see such comments of yours as being highly personal in nature?

I love to watch excellent jumps, but I don't start start proposing changes to the system when a skater like Jason who wins with high PCS and one of the weaker jump layouts come along, I'm just happy that a skater with different strength is bringing his game to the table. I would object in the same way if a group starts bemoaning the *possible*, *future* disincentive for difficult jumps because a weak jumper is medaling. Oh what if a slew of Jasons come along and ruin the technical aspects of the sport!

This has never an issue until Jin pops up. For a long time, it happened to Yuzuru, his TES exceeded Patrick's by a significant margin, but his PCS made it impossible to beat Patrick, Patrick had a cushion over him, yet there was never any talk of Yuzuru's insane quads and 3a (yes, they were in "insane" territory, hitting mid 90s in TES and much higher than his PCS, until Jin), being unfair to skaters with high PCS like Patrick. In the year leading up to the Olympics, Yuzuru had a rapid increase in PCS and finally managed to beat a subpar Patrick.

There's so much talk about "balance", but in fact the balance was always tipped in favour of PCS, skaters with higher PCS always beat rival skaters with higher TES, e.g.. Patrick and Jason. The PCS gap was worth at least 2-3 jumps to catch up with the top tier skaters, so there was no way to bridge that gap until high TES skaters' PCS also rose like in Yuzuru's case.

In fact, the recent SC showed that Patrick can beat a superior jumper like Yuzuru with a lower BV strategy, and it was very difficult for Yuzuru to skate his high TES programs cleanly.

Jin could not skate his 4 quad LP well either, it taxed his stamina, he fell, stumbled, etc., and his PCS showed he is still lagging Javi by almost 20 pts. despite Javi also falling and stumbling. Jin might achieve it one day, or might crash and burn like Reynolds.

Everyone accepted the PCS privilege/imbalance, accepted the system, i.e. until Jin, and there's a huge uproar and talk about changing the system, and Jin hasn't even qualified for the GPF yet.

Until Jin and other Jin-like skaters start beating high PCS champions, it is premature to declare it a problem, because Jin might just be a fluke when it comes to jumps, the exception rather than the rule, and he might not even medal at GPF or World's.

 

[Meoima]

Everyone accepted the PCS privilege/imbalance, accepted the system, i.e. until Jin, .

Nope. this debates has been rehearsed too many times unless your memory is so short. People always complain about PCS/TES issue for years.
Just recently when some skaters are upgrading their TES and they can hit over 100, then the idea unbalance might happen sooner or latter, then Mishin and the Eurosport guys talk about it. So here we are.

 

[Warwick360]

Can't the PCS factor, at least in the Free, be raised from the current value of 2? Surely, that will balance out the possibility of widening gap between TES and PCS? And I think it would make sense considering how the top skaters are constantly pushing the envelope in terms of technical ability.

Or maybe they should reduce the TES. Get rid of giving out Positive GOE, instead mark jumps like they mark figure in the old days, poor jumps get -4 or -3 GOE, ok jumps get -2 or -1 GOE, and only great jumps with difficult transitions deserve full BV, apply same thing for spins.

That would be ridiculous. What if someone does a great triple axel but is appearing earlier, and someone much later happens to do a spectacular triple Axel? Surely, the judges would be wrong to give them the same points?

 

[Meoima]

That would be ridiculous. What if someone does a great triple axel but is appearing earlier, and someone much later happens to do a spectacular triple Axel? Surely, the judges would be wrong to give them the same points?

eh it's the same with this scenario: Skater number 21 got +3 across the board for his quad, then skater number 23 also got +3 across the board for his quad. Which is better?
The issue is too many positive GOE can lead to some magnificent gap. And does it worth it?

So Meioma you suggesting no/less reward for difficulty and quality of jump :think:. Meaning for examples this eagle sandwich 3A or this back counter 3A to spread eagle, you want these to get the same score as this 3A :con3:

Deduction for the jump with poorer speed and poor take off.

And the transitions before jumps are counted into TR in PCS.

 

[qwertyskates]

Nope. this debates has been rehearsed too many times unless your memory is so short. People always complain about PCS/TES issue for years.
Just recently when some skaters are upgrading their TES and they can hit over 100, then the idea unbalance might happen sooner or latter, then Mishin and the Eurosport guys talk about it. So here we are.

Before Sochi, Yuzuru's PCS was rapidly rising, by 20 pts, closing the gap with Patrick's, and some of us were wondering if PCS can rise at such a rate, but I accepted it because in the end, it was fair, as Yuzuru suffered from the PCS privilege of Patrick. The conclusion was that there was an imbalance in favour of PCS in the first place, and Yuzuru deserves to get a shot by having his PCS raised to the point where the playing field with Patrick was more balanced.