A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

[andromache]

I think you misunderstood my post. My approach allows for benefit of the doubt as we have no way of actually predicting what the results would have been.

Also, I specifically stated that the SP results would be used.

I'm simply saying that we should also recognize that using the SP results is imperfect, and therefore add a couple of spots to each discipline to account for that.

Nothing is going to be 100% identical to what the results would have been if the event went ahead. That's why I think that TEB skaters who fall into a gray area should be allowed to go to the GPF.

How would we determine which skaters fall into a gray area and should get GPF spots?

 

[peg]

How would we determine which skaters fall into a gray area and should get GPF spots?

The same way they would be determined if we only used SP scores.

 

[sabinfire]

Might be awhile before we hear the phrase: "You can't win it in the short program, but you can lose it."

 

[andromache]

Heck, I'm even concerned that (my earlier suggested idea) allowing all GP champions to compete in the final alongside those who qualified normally may impact the quality of the upcoming events. If someone is already a GP champion from a past event and hasn't had their second event yet, AND is competing against a compatriot, there MAY BE some pressure to lose to that compatriot who hasn't qualified yet. It's a bit conspiracy-theory of me, I admit.

Maybe, "all normal GP qualifiers (using TEB SP scores as final placements). PLUS anyone who competed at TEB who won/wins a medal at another event." It would make sure there aren't too many extra spots given and make it manageable. I originally typed this out as "all normal GP qualifiers ignoring TEB" but ignoring the part of the competition that was held is just wasteful.

 

[Barb]

the solution should be done the way that this will not affect skaters who where not a TEB at all


PB's is not the way to go because how you assume someone would have skated to their PB ? and that is automatically bad to skaters who did well in SP but their PB's are not as high as some others.



I am actually really surprised there is no rule already that if event can't be finished SP are the final results

THIS.
At least we all know the next time a competition can´t be finished (touch wood) the SP will be the final result.

 

[mrrice]

How would we determine which skaters fall into a gray area and should get GPF spots?

I'm not sure about the "Gray Area" skaters. However, Max, Patrick, Gracie and any other Grand Prix Medalists from this event can be added to the GPF if there's no other way to for them to qualify. The Top 8 as opposed to the top 6 is not too much for judges to handle and I know that skating fans would enjoy it much more if they knew the terror attacks had not derailed their favorite skaters season.

 

[oriquey]

Heck, I'm even concerned that (my earlier suggested idea) allowing all GP champions to compete in the final alongside those who qualified normally may impact the quality of the upcoming events. If someone is already a GP champion from a past event and hasn't had their second event yet, AND is competing against a compatriot, there MAY BE some pressure to lose to that compatriot who hasn't qualified yet. It's a bit conspiracy-theory of me, I admit.

Maybe, "all normal GP qualifiers (using TEB SP scores as final placements). PLUS anyone who competed at TEB who won/wins a medal at another event." It would make sure there aren't too many extra spots given and make it manageable. I originally typed this out as "all normal GP qualifiers ignoring TEB" but ignoring the part of the competition that was held is just wasteful.

I think this is a good option. I initially stated that maybe this season all GP medallists should be invited to GPF but now I think that wouldn't be manageable. But I do feel that spots for GPF this season should be increased to 8-12.

 

[TheBladeBoys]

I second the suggestion to expand the number of skaters for GPF. If not, would inviting all the medallists at the GPs be a feasible option?

Well, it could get a little bit crazy... the following are medallists so far on the GP who have two GP events (to our knowledge):

MEN
1. Chan
2. Aaron
3. Uno
4. Brown
5. Hanyu
6. Murakami
7. Fernandez
8. Jin
9. Yan
10. Kovtun (if we include TEB)


LADIES
1. Medvedeva
2. Wagner
3. Asada
4. Tuktamysheva
5. Gold
6. Hongo
7. Radionova
8. Nagai
9. Miyahara
10. Lipnitskaia (if we include TEB)
11. Rodegheiro (if we include TEB)

PAIRS
1. Duhamel/Radford
2. Sui/Han
3. Seguin/Bilodeau
4. Tarasova/Morozov
5. Moore-Towers/Marinaro
6. Kavaguti/Smirnov
7. Yu/Jin
8. Scimeca/Knierim
9. James/Cipres (if we include TEB)

ICE DANCE
1. Chock/Bates
2. Sinitsina/Katsalapov
3. Gilles/Poirier
4. Weaver/Poje
5. Cappellini/Lanotte
6. Shibutani/Shibutani
7. Ilinykh/Zhiganshin
8. Bobrova/Soloviev
9. Hubbell/Donohue (if we include TEB)
10. Stepanova/Bukin (if we include TEB)


After Rostelecom/NHK the medalists could certainly increase (likely not as much in pairs/ice dance). Agreed that if a skater/team has won a GP gold, they should be allowed to go to the final (as it was with the Champions Series in the past).

 

[andromache]

Heck, I'm even concerned that (my earlier suggested idea) allowing all GP champions to compete in the final alongside those who qualified normally may impact the quality of the upcoming events. If someone is already a GP champion from a past event and hasn't had their second event yet, AND is competing against a compatriot, there MAY BE some pressure to lose to that compatriot who hasn't qualified yet. It's a bit conspiracy-theory of me, I admit.

Maybe, "all normal GP qualifiers (using TEB SP scores as final placements). PLUS anyone who competed at TEB who won/wins a medal at another event." It would make sure there aren't too many extra spots given and make it manageable. I originally typed this out as "all normal GP qualifiers ignoring TEB" but ignoring the part of the competition that was held is just wasteful.

The more I'm thinking about this idea the more I like it. (Obviously, since I came up with it :agree2.

It "forgives" the bad SPs of those who have won medals while still rewarding the SPs skated here. Patrick, Max, Liza, T/M get in on past medals. Shoma and Gracie probably qualify "normally." Yulia gets points for 2nd place plus her SA finish, but probably not enough to qualify. It's uncertain if Daisuke would qualify with two 3rd place finishes, but he gets in based on his SC medal anyway.

TEB skaters who have yet to do their second event (Kovtun, P/Z, V/T, etc) have motivation to kick butt at their next events and qualify either via a medal (P/Z) or qualify normally based on TEB placement plus other placement (Kovtun, V/T). But if none of your events was TEB and you thus got to skate two full events, you don't get unduly rewarded and there aren't an excess of extra spots given out.

Basically, your TEB SP helps you qualify if you skated well. You backed up that SP with a qualifying result at another comp. Good job. If you didn't skate well in the TEB SP, you'll be forgiven if you medalled/medal in the future elsewhere.

 

[Shani]

There is no fair way to do this or ratify results for season standings. Potentially though ISU could put all those atlhetes and coaches on a train or bus and have them do a freeskate in Belgium or Germany or Austria, on an even level for all of them since they had the same experience, and it would be a quick journey that would balance out events rather than have athletes fly from multiple time zones later. You could even put the judges on the bus too.
So sorry for the fear in France created by these terrorists.

 

[peg]

I'm not sure about the "Gray Area" skaters. However, Max, Patrick, Gracie and any other Grand Prix Medalists from this event can be added to the GPF if there's no other way to for them to qualify. The Top 8 as opposed to the top 6 is not too much for judges to handle and I know that skating fans would enjoy it much more if they knew the terror attacks had not derailed their favorite skaters season.

And what I was suggesting basically amounts to the Top 6 (based on either 2 GPs or one GP plus TEB SP) plus the next two taken from those who were at TEB.

I do think there should be a couple of extra spots given that the skaters didn't have the opportunity to improve on their SP, but I think those extra spots should only be used for TEB skaters precisely to adjust for the fact that they didn't have the same opportunity as everyone else.

 

[mrrice]

THIS.
At least we all know the next time a competition can´t be finished (touch wood) the SP will be the final result.

I find it shocking there's no rule in place for a situation like this. I don't mean the terror aspect. But, weird things happened at our events and you have to be prepared. We had an event at The Long Beach Convention Center where the finals for a competition were to be held. There was some kind of dispute/protest going on with the Event Staff Management and the workers. There was no warning that this may happen and we had to cancel the event.

The prelim scores had to be used for the awards and qualification for nationals. This was very bad for any team hoping for redemption in Finals and it cost more than 1 group a trip to Japan where the Championships were held that year.

 

[oriquey]

Well, it could get a little bit crazy... the following are medallists so far on the GP who have two GP events (to our knowledge):

MEN
1. Chan
2. Aaron
3. Uno
4. Brown
5. Hanyu
6. Murakami
7. Fernandez
8. Jin
9. Yan
10. Kovtun (if we include TEB)


LADIES
1. Medvedeva
2. Wagner
3. Asada
4. Tuktamysheva
5. Gold
6. Hongo
7. Radionova
8. Nagai
9. Miyahara
10. Lipnitskaia (if we include TEB)
11. Rodegheiro (if we include TEB)

PAIRS
1. Duhamel/Radford
2. Sui/Han
3. Seguin/Bilodeau
4. Tarasova/Morozov
5. Moore-Towers/Marinaro
6. Kavaguti/Smirnov
7. Yu/Jin
8. Scimeca/Knierim
9. James/Cipres (if we include TEB)

ICE DANCE
1. Chock/Bates
2. Sinitsina/Katsalapov
3. Gilles/Poirier
4. Weaver/Poje
5. Cappellini/Lanotte
6. Shibutani/Shibutani
7. Ilinykh/Zhiganshin
8. Bobrova/Soloviev
9. Hubbell/Donohue (if we include TEB)
10. Stepanova/Bukin (if we include TEB)


After Rostelecom/NHK the medalists could certainly increase (likely not as much in pairs/ice dance). Agreed that if a skater/team has won a GP gold, they should be allowed to go to the final (as it was with the Champions Series in the past).

Thanks for the list. Yeah, Gold medals winners should be included in the GPF.

 

[mrrice]

And what I was suggesting basically amounts to the Top 6 (based on either 2 GPs or one GP plus TEB SP) plus the next two taken from those who were at TEB.

I do think there should be a couple of extra spots given that the skaters didn't have the opportunity to improve on their SP, but I think those extra spots should only be used for TEB skaters precisely to adjust for the fact that they didn't have the same opportunity as everyone else.

Get it Peg!! I agree 100%

 

[peg]

The more I'm thinking about this idea the more I like it. (Obviously, since I came up with it :agree2.

It "forgives" the bad SPs of those who have won medals while still rewarding the SPs skated here. Patrick, Max, Liza, T/M get in on past medals. Shoma and Gracie probably qualify "normally." Yulia gets points for 2nd place plus her SA finish, but probably not enough to qualify. It's uncertain if Daisuke would qualify with two 3rd place finishes, but he gets in based on his SC medal anyway.

TEB skaters who have yet to do their second event (Kovtun, P/Z, V/T, etc) have motivation to kick butt at their next events and qualify either via a medal (P/Z) or qualify normally based on TEB placement plus other placement (Kovtun, V/T). But if none of your events was TEB and you thus got to skate two full events, you don't get unduly rewarded and there aren't an excess of extra spots given out.

In effect, this wouldn't be hugely different to what I was proposing, except that you might wind up with more than 8 entries in some disciplines. Not a huge problem. It does increase costs a little, but not prohibitively.

Essentially we're both advocating for an approach that adds some extra spots to TEB skaters to compensate for the fact that they did not have a full competition. I'd be ok with either one, as the differences between them are really quite minimal.

 

[jzoole]

I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, but apologies if someone already has. It seems to me the only fair way to go about selecting the qualifiers to the GPF is if every skater gets the opportunity to skate two sets of a short program and free skate. So what about the Golden Spin of Zagreb? This event is already planned, with a venue booked and everything. How costly or inconvenient would it be to invite all of the TEB participants to go to GSoZ and skate a long program, and add whatever their score is to the standing score of their SP from TEB? The timing would be pretty perfect as it is scheduled for right in between NHK and the GPF. Obviously I'm not an ISU official so I don't know of any potential problems with this plan, but it seems like the most logical solution to me.


EDIT: Now that I think of it, there a number of ISU-sanctioned events taking place between now and the GPF that could also be considered as an impromptu TEB make-up event. The Golden Bear of Zagreb, the Warsaw Cup, the Tallinn Trophy, the Santa Claus Cup, the Open D'Andorra.... I don't know. Just a thought.

 

[andromache]

In effect, this wouldn't be hugely different to what I was proposing, except that you might wind up with more than 8 entries in some disciplines. Not a huge problem. It does increase costs a little, but not prohibitively.

Essentially we're both advocating for an approach that adds some extra spots to TEB skaters to compensate for the fact that they did not have a full competition. I'd be ok with either one, as the differences between them are really quite minimal.

Thanks for clarifying! I wasn't sure how you meant to determine how the extra spots would be awarded, so I tried to think in specifics and came up with this.

 

[actualrealliveanna]

That's similar to what I've suggested in a couple of other threads.

Basically, use the SP scores for the calculating the qualifiers, but then allow an extra couple of spots for those who were at TEB and are n the bubble of qualifying. This essentially acknowledges that simply using SP scores is an imperfect method and takes into consideration that some people may have moved up significantly in the FS.

I wouldn't use those extra spots for people who weren't at TEB though, because they already had a chance to skate two full competitions. It would just be those that are potentially penalized by not being able to skate the FS

That's exactly what I think. That way, people like Liza and Patrick still have a shot at making it. It's not like there's much else we can do and people might just have to deal with their favorites not making the final. It's not necessarily fair, but it's what we've got to deal with and I'd much rather see someone not make the GPF than in serious danger.

 

[Layback11]

I haven't seen anyone mention this yet, but apologies if someone already has. It seems to me the only fair way to go about selecting the qualifiers to the GPF is if every skater gets the opportunity to skate two sets of a short program and free skate. So what about the Golden Spin of Zagreb? This event is already planned, with a venue booked and everything. How costly or inconvenient would it be to invite all of the TEB participants to go to GSoZ and skate a long program, and add whatever their score is to the standing score of their SP from TEB? The timing would be pretty perfect as it is scheduled for right in between NHK and the GPF. Obviously I'm not an ISU official so I don't know of any potential problems with this plan, but it seems like the most logical solution to me.

I never thought of that, but that's a great idea!

 

[mrrice]

Here's a question. Are Patrick, Max, Ashley and all the other Gold Medalists in the Final regardless of what happens or do they need another event to qualify?