A fair way to pick GPF finalists?

[el henry]

It seems like the ISU is playing for time, hoping the problem will go away on its own.

With Jason Brown withdrawing from NHK and Adam Rippon not pulling a miracle at Rostelecon, Chan is home free no matter what, right? The ISU may hope that after next week they can just say, "the following skaters are in the final," and give no further rationale.

(The "don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing" management model. )

Why should their management model change now? Of course, maybe this is a solution that unites both "don't count TEB at all" and "count the short as a final score" in its utter absurdity. And Jason made their lives easier with his withdrawal; who knows who else might get injured?:sarcasm:

And hey, I think this thread should go on until it equals the Yuzu fan fest thread. I'm doing my part.

 

[Mirunna]

more chances for Satoko now?

Yes, but even if let's say neither Rika or Liza make the GPF, they should be somehow separated one from another in the final standings, right?
This is such a mess. ISU really need to think this well

 

[moriel]

Well most likely both Rika and Liza are out anyways, because well, Satoko needs a bronze and she probably can pull that out.
Ashley and Mao are also most likely in - Ashley would be above those two even with a 5th place, same for Mao.

 

[ice coverage]

Rika with a fifth place at Rostelecom Cup and a second place in China.
Liza with a fifth place at TEB SP and a second place in Canada.

How do you differentiate between them? How will ISU apply the tie breaker between them?

Seven layers of tie-breakers are in the GP rules.

IIRC -- I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong -- the second tie-breaker is the sum of the total scores from both GPs.

(The first tie-breaker does not apply to Rika and Liza. The first tie-breaker is the highest placement at either of the two GPs.)

ETA:

Eeeeek, sorry for being such a dummy :hopelessness:. Duhhh, TEB does not have total scores. So the second tie-breaker cannot be used.
Peter Krick of the ISU did say that he proposed that the tie-breakers be adjusted if the TEB SP placements are used for GPF qualification.​

 

[koatcue]

Yes, but even if let's say neither Rika or Liza make the GPF, they should be somehow separated one from another in the final standings, right?
This is such a mess. ISU really need to think this well

I believe they'll be separated by their overall bests from GPs

 

[moriel]

https://translate.google.com/transl...re_skating/20151120/880521207.html&edit-text=
Posted in Liza`s thread. If that is right and if i understand it correctly, they will use SP for TEB, then select 6 skaters / pairs for GPF, and then select one extra of each from the TEB skaters.

 

[Lys]

https://translate.google.com/transl...re_skating/20151120/880521207.html&edit-text=
Posted in Liza`s thread. If that is right and if i understand it correctly, they will use SP for TEB, then select 6 skaters / pairs for GPF, and then select one extra of each from the TEB skaters.

This news has been around since yesterday, but no official confirmation yet, so at this point I think it's (still) just speculation.

What it's certain is that they have updated skaters bio with COR results, they have updated ws and some skaters bio with TEB sp results, they have NOT updated the standings towards GPF, nor for TEB nor for COR.

 

[Mathman]

And hey, I think this thread should go on until it equals the Yuzu fan fest thread. I'm doing my part.

Only 29,000 posts to go!

 

[Amei]

To me, in this situation, it is out of the question. What's unfair about the situation is that some skaters took a blow from cruel fate beyond the figure skating world. There is nothing the figure skating establishment can do that will restore fairness and balance.

We can, however, try to give a break to the skaters who were disadvantaged through no fault of their own --wrong place, wrong time. For instance by awarding some extra (unearned) spots. (The devil is in the details, of course.)

To me I think they should (at least for this year) change the GPF where the top 3 finishers from each GP event get into the GPF. An option for not making the GPF exceptionally longer - after the SP (since the skaters will be aware of it, it would be fair) the top 6 advance to the FS. It would make the GPF more exciting if the SP was an elimination round.

 

[kalee]

That would only work and appear fair if Anna doesn't come and spoil the party. Let's say we get the following result at NHK:
Mao - 1st (1st + 1st = 30)
Anna - 2nd (2nd + 4th = 22)
Satoko - 3rd (3rd + 3rd = 22)
Ashley - 4th (1st + 4th = 24)

Our top 6 would be Mao, Evgenia, Gracie, Elena, Ashley and Anna in this scenario. And then Satoko, not Liza, would be the 7th skater in the standings. How do we justify that Liza would have indeed leapfrogged Satoko if she had the opportunity to perform the LP? Things would only get muddier if Satoko's SP scores at her 2 events greatly surpass Liza's (a likely outcome).

Much as I would like to have Liza qualify for the GPF, I don't see how it can be wrangled without a hue and cry over the other skaters likely to be caught in the middle of this business (namely Anna, Satoko and Rika). So broken as the system is, I am more in favour of saying let's stick with the SP placements, rather than inviting more controversy. At least Gracie had a strong LP at SA and so can hardly be said to have sneaked in undeservingly. She has been cleaner this season than in the past, so any break she gets is fair and square

 

[Mathman]

How do we justify that Liza would have indeed leapfrogged Satoko if she had the opportunity to perform the LP?

On the "fair play" front, this argument trumps all.

We cannot give preference to someone who might have done something, over someone who actually did it.

 

[moriel]

That would only work and appear fair if Anna doesn't come and spoil the party. Let's say we get the following result at NHK:
Mao - 1st (1st + 1st = 30)
Anna - 2nd (2nd + 4th = 22)
Satoko - 3rd (3rd + 3rd = 22)
Ashley - 4th (1st + 4th = 24)

Our top 6 would be Mao, Evgenia, Gracie, Elena, Ashley and Anna in this scenario. And then Satoko, not Liza, would be the 7th skater in the standings. How do we justify that Liza would have indeed leapfrogged Satoko if she had the opportunity to perform the LP? Things would only get muddier if Satoko's SP scores at her 2 events greatly surpass Liza's (a likely outcome).

Much as I would like to have Liza qualify for the GPF, I don't see how it can be wrangled without a hue and cry over the other skaters likely to be caught in the middle of this business (namely Anna, Satoko and Rika). So broken as the system is, I am more in favour of saying let's stick with the SP placements, rather than inviting more controversy. At least Gracie had a strong LP at SA and so can hardly be said to have sneaked in undeservingly. She has been cleaner this season than in the past, so any break she gets is fair and square

Well Liza`s GP LP score was 133. Satoko got 123 so far. One can say blablabla =)
Or say Liza got a silver, which is best than bronze, if we take the highest rank instead of the sum.

Whatever ISU decides, i'm sure they will come up with some explanation for that.


As for Mathman`s logic about something that has been actually done... Then all TEB skaters should be just out, as they did not skate the LP, unlike everybody else. So why skaters would get into GPF by skating only 2 SPs and a LP, while other skated all 4 programs?
But then again, that is probably not fair either.

 

[Lys]

Well Liza`s GP LP score was 133. Satoko got 123 so far. One can say blablabla =)
Or say Liza got a silver, which is best than bronze, if we take the highest rank instead of the sum.

The point is Liza would have 20 points against Miyahara 22, tho.

But even if we take this aside, I'm a bit unsure why Liza should get ahead than, say, Rika. Both at 20 points, both with a second place as highest result, Rika had an higher total score at COC than Liza total score in Canada and Rika had a better sp score at COR than Liza at TEB.

 

[moriel]

The point is Liza would have 20 points against Miyahara 22, tho.

But even if we take this aside, I'm a bit unsure why Liza should get ahead than, say, Rika. Both at 20 points, both with a second place as highest result, Rika had an higher total score at COC than Liza total score in Canada and Rika had a better sp score at COR than Liza at TEB.

Again, sure ISU can come up with something =)

As for Liza, for me its pretty simple, i rather watch her than Satoko, so i want Liza in GPF with Mao, Gracie, Ashley, Rad, and Medvedeva. Lols =P

 

[TontoK]

I'm not sure why everyone is worried about Liza making the GPF.

If I were a great fan of hers... which I'm not... I'd be more worried about whether she can medal at Russian nationals and advance to Europeans and Worlds.

The depth of the Russian ladies is such that it is completely plausible that the reigning WC will not crack top 3 in their national championship.

 

[moriel]

I'm not sure why everyone is worried about Liza making the GPF.

If I were a great fan of hers... which I'm not... I'd be more worried about whether she can medal at Russian nationals and advance to Europeans and Worlds.

The depth of the Russian ladies is such that it is completely plausible that the reigning WC will not crack top 3 in their national championship.

I have 2 worries.Basically, i want to see both Liza and Mao doing as many clean 3As as possible in same competition.
That has 2 chances this year, GPF and Worlds =)

 

[chuckm]

If Liza had skated at CoR, she wouldn't have made the podium against those other Russian girls. She would have buried herself after the SP and there wouldn't be any redemption with her FS because they'd outscore her there, too. And that's what she's facing at Russian Nationals if she can't get herself in gear. Never mind making the GPF or winning Worlds, she might not even GET to Worlds.

 

[moriel]

If Liza had skated at CoR, she wouldn't have made the podium against those other Russian girls. She would have buried herself after the SP and there wouldn't be any redemption with her FS because they'd outscore her there, too. And that's what she's facing at Russian Nationals if she can't get herself in gear. Never mind making the GPF or winning Worlds, she might not even GET to Worlds.

Who knows =)
Last year, everybody thouht Gracie would never put 2 clean programs together either.
1 year ago, people were saying Liza was done and no hope for her, and then she is world champion.

 

[reneerose]

I think this would be the only fair option. Not sure of the logistics (where would this be held, for instance) but they really ought to be given an opportunity to compete and get the real scores (not those based on SB or average or whatever). I also want to see them skate again before the final.

It's not like there's never been a LP only competition before (the Japan Open comes to mind).

I think this would be fair. But strange to have to come back to Bordeaux just for one more skate. Sort of like makeup exams in Uni...

 

[Mathman]

As for Mathman`s logic about something that has been actually done... Then all TEB skaters should be just out, as they did not skate the LP, unlike everybody else. So why skaters would get into GPF by skating only 2 SPs and a LP, while other skated all 4 programs?

But then again, that is probably not fair either.

Here is how I think we can skate along the line between logic and a Mad Hatter's tea party.

First question: Was enough skating done at TEB to justify declaring a winner, a second place finisher, etc. There are two possible answers.

(A) No. For placement purposes, the event is scored as if it never happened.

(B) Yes. For placement purposes, the skaters are ranked according to the short program results.

So far so good. As far as I can see, neither has a greater claim to the title "logical" than the other. Tied on the logic mark, we go to the first tie-breaker: Fair Play.

If we go with (A), then no one who competed in France can go to the GP Final. Nothing illogical about that, but the question now is "fair play."

If we go with (B), then the participants at Bompard compete for spots in the GP final on the basis of placement, following the same rules a everyone else. They are disadvantaged ever so slightly because of the second tie-breaker.

Now we are finished with logic and finished with fair play. We turn to the last question, do we want to give an unearned break to skaters from whom fickle fate snatched a hope-filled opportunity?

Sure we do! We are all logical here, and we may differ on the issue of what constitutes fair play, but we are not big meanies. We should add on a few extra spots for the most deserving of the unlucky. :yes:

Logical, fair minded, and kind hearted. What's not to like?