Slow Motion Jump Editing (AKA: Sam's Jump-a-ma-tron)

[CoyoteChris]

The video is pretty poor quality because I downloaded it before I found a good quality version and on top of that the dang camera angles were bad and super shaky. I kind of want to do one that shows Mao's UR's that get called and Satoko's that don't. I'm just crazy busy this weekend so I'm not sure when I can find time.

Thanks to you and all for their hard work! I think beyond a doubt there is more to learn in this thread about jumping than in any thread ever. Someone, using these vids, could explain exactly to us ignorant folks how a tech specialist would look at a jump, from the takeoff foot position and angle to the landing, and analyze the degrees of rotation...., as well as what judges look for in GOEs, etc. for instance.

The question I have is, since skating seems to be drifting tword a jumping competion and the jumps are so important, what is the current state of art as far as tech specialists are concerned as far as replays? If a Jump is called up for review, does the judging pannel/tech pannel have the ability to play a jump in this kind of slow mo quality? I am all for giving the skaters the benifit of the doubt, but I also believe that in our lifetimes, the replay screen will give a instantanious computer analysis of the total jump. Meaning takeoff angle vs landing angle, takeoff edge, etc. But that time is not today. So the pannels have,,,,what? One camera angle and the ability to slow the jump down somewhat?

 

[largeman]

Thanks. I can clearly see the under rotation or "after" rotation. But for pre-rotation, I cannot tell from the video if she does or she does not. And mine, she rotates lightening fast and even with the slow mo, she looks so fast, and white boots on white ice does not help with my judgement.

Before Sam presents another one of her entertaining productions, here is footage that illustrates what people have been saying about Satoko pre-rotation problem.

You can see here that she almost completed a full revolution of the jump on the ice, before the left toe pick actually left the ice. If you look at other skaters' toe loops, the maximum amount of pre-rotation is ~180 degrees (i.e. the foot takes off facing forward). Here, you can see it's almost 180 degrees more.

ETA: as a direct comparison, play this triple toe loop in slow motion and you will see here, the foot is well in the air at the end point of the first revolution where Satoko's toe is just leaving the ice.

 

[Puchi]

Before Sam presents another one of her entertaining productions, here is footage that illustrates what people have been saying about Satoko pre-rotation problem.

Oh my! :shocked:

 

[moriel]

Is that supposed to be a triple ?

 

[CoyoteChris]

Before Sam presents another one of her entertaining productions, here is footage that illustrates what people have been saying about Satoko pre-rotation problem.

You can see here that she almost completed a full revolution of the jump on the ice, before the left toe pick actually left the ice. If you look at other skaters' toe loops, the maximum amount of pre-rotation is ~180 degrees (i.e. the foot takes off facing forward). Here, you can see it's almost 180 degrees more.

ETA: as a direct comparison, play this triple toe loop in slow motion and you will see here, the foot is well in the air at the end point of the first revolution where Satoko's toe is just leaving the ice.

It also looks to me that the jump was landed dramatically under rotated too????.....I went back and forth, pausing the vid....so I guess this answers part of my question about what technology the judges have to watch these jumps.....Johnny Weir/Tara said on NBC this season that the judges were watching for (pre-rotation). Considering the marks that combo got, ....Houston, we have a problem......I like Satako but she needs to be gigged.....now I am curious about all those jumps in her free program at the final.....

 

[chloepoco]

It also looks to me that the jump was landed dramatically under rotated too????.....I went back and forth, pausing the vid....so I guess this answers part of my question about what technology the judges have to watch these jumps.....Johnny Weir/Tara said on NBC this season that the judges were watching for (pre-rotation). Considering the marks that combo got, ....Houston, we have a problem......I like Satako but she needs to be gigged.....now I am curious about all those jumps in her free program at the final.....

Funny, the CBC commentators said her jumps were clean. Small, but clean. As I've said before, I'll take Kurt Browning's word for it over all you armchair judges...

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Funny, the CBC commentators said her jumps were clean. Small, but clean. As I've said before, I'll take Kurt Browning's word for it over all you armchair judges...

Kurt Browning should supply video evidence....eh

 

[chloepoco]

Kurt Browning should supply video evidence....eh

Why should he? Does he have to provide video evidence every time he calls a skaters' jump clean?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

Why should he? Does he have to provide video evidence every time he calls a skaters' jump clean?

Not really....I'm sure there are all sorts of people that just listen to Kurt regardless of the evidence and truth of the matter at hand. I'm just not one of them. I'll trust the video myself. YMMV.

 

[caitie]

Funny, the CBC commentators said her jumps were clean. Small, but clean. As I've said before, I'll take Kurt Browning's word for it over all you armchair judges...

Did you watch the clip linked above? There's a close-up of her feet, and you can see the jump very clearly for yourself. She completes almost a full revolution of her jump before she even leaves the ice: https://youtu.be/vJWC1_w0toI?t=4m53s

 

[chloepoco]

Did you watch the clip linked above? There's a close-up of her feet, and you can see the jump very clearly for yourself. She completes almost a full revolution of her jump before she even leaves the ice: https://youtu.be/vJWC1_w0toI?t=4m53s

I did. But I'm not an expert, so I'm not sure what I'm seeing or not seeing. Besides, didn't he say "absolutely superb"? If there was something wrong with the jump, I don't think he'd say it was superb. Anyhow, you all seem to consider yourselves the experts, so whatever.

 

[solani]

Why should he? Does he have to provide video evidence every time he calls a skaters' jump clean?

Satoko's jumps look clean in real time. She's rotating so fast, it's a blur and if the flow out of the jumps is good (and she has good flow out of her jumps) the jumps look clean even if they aren't. So Kurt Browning, a old 6.0 skater thinks those jumps are clean. And mind you, they would have been clean under 6.0 as well. They weren't so picky about underrotations back then.
I read some time ago something like a certain skaters "broke" the judging system so that it needed adjustment. I don't think that the skater "broke" it, but adjustments were necessary, because the experts thought that the differences between scores were too large under certain circumstances. New systems often need adjustments and CoP is relatively new still. The tech panel should be allowed to watch the take-off in slow-motion, not only the landing. And maybe there should be more weight on the height of the jumps in the GOE.
That said I think Satoko's jumps are actually better this season than they were last season. She's jumping higher. Maybe she would be a better jumper if she hadn't changed her rotational direction when she was a kid?

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

I did. But I'm not an expert, so I'm not sure what I'm seeing or not seeing. Besides, didn't he say "absolutely superb"? If there was something wrong with the jump, I don't think he'd say it was superb. Anyhow, you all seem to consider yourselves the experts, so whatever.

I don't feel the need to qualify myself but I'll just say I spend A LOT of time at the ice rinks on a daily basis.

Do you not see that Satoko is rotating almost an entire 360 degrees of rotation on the ice in this video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c2cSxjB6v0

It really shouldn't take an expert to see what a full rotation is.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Funny, the CBC commentators said her jumps were clean. Small, but clean. As I've said before, I'll take Kurt Browning's word for it over all you armchair judges...

Just FYI there are poster here that are more than "armchair"
judges and actually have judged compositions.

Kurt is not an impartial judge... he is a paid commentator.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I did. But I'm not an expert, so I'm not sure what I'm seeing or not seeing. Besides, didn't he say "absolutely superb"? If there was something wrong with the jump, I don't think he'd say it was superb. Anyhow, you all seem to consider yourselves the experts, so whatever.

Think of it a bit like a clock face on the ice. Imagine the take off edge/blade is the minute hand of a clock. The skaters needs to do a full rotation... or hour on a clock, in the air for it to be a fully rotated jump. Doubles, triples, etc just mean more hours. If the skater only completes 75% of the rotation, it will look like the minute hand only went 45 minutes rather than a whole hour. A skater has to complete at least 3/4 (or 45 minutes) for it to not get an under-rotation. Many skaters will cheat and go for a rotation of about 50 minutes as that is enough to not get called, but i guess slightly easier for them... this is part of why it can be tricky... a jump can be short, but not short enough to get called. But the goal is for the blade to land at least as far along the clock circle as where it took off.

... then we can start to debate when the blade actually leaves the ice and makes contact... but this should give you some idea of what we are talking about.

Also sometimes taking screen shots and doodling on them in MS Paint/photoshoop can be useful. Look at the take off and landing side by side... draw a line on them to see where the angle is on take off and landing.

 

[semosk8tfan]

Think of it a bit like a clock face on the ice. Imagine the take off edge/blade is the minute hand of a clock. The skaters needs to do a full rotation... or hour on a clock, in the air for it to be a fully rotated jump. Doubles, triples, etc just mean more hours. If the skater only completes 75% of the rotation, it will look like the minute hand only went 45 minutes rather than a whole hour. A skater has to complete at least 3/4 (or 45 minutes) for it to not get an under-rotation. Many skaters will cheat and go for a rotation of about 50 minutes as that is enough to not get called, but i guess slightly easier for them... this is part of why it can be tricky... a jump can be short, but not short enough to get called. But the goal is for the blade to land at least as far along the clock circle as where it took off.

... then we can start to debate when the blade actually leaves the ice and makes contact... but this should give you some idea of what we are talking about.

Also sometimes taking screen shots and doodling on them in MS Paint/photoshoop can be useful. Look at the take off and landing side by side... draw a line on them to see where the angle is on take off and landing.

Great explanation,thank you!!

 

[CoyoteChris]

Think of it a bit like a clock face on the ice. Imagine the take off edge/blade is the minute hand of a clock. The skaters needs to do a full rotation... or hour on a clock, in the air for it to be a fully rotated jump. Doubles, triples, etc just mean more hours. If the skater only completes 75% of the rotation, it will look like the minute hand only went 45 minutes rather than a whole hour. A skater has to complete at least 3/4 (or 45 minutes) for it to not get an under-rotation. Many skaters will cheat and go for a rotation of about 50 minutes as that is enough to not get called, but i guess slightly easier for them... this is part of why it can be tricky... a jump can be short, but not short enough to get called. But the goal is for the blade to land at least as far along the clock circle as where it took off.

... then we can start to debate when the blade actually leaves the ice and makes contact... but this should give you some idea of what we are talking about.

Also sometimes taking screen shots and doodling on them in MS Paint/photoshoop can be useful. Look at the take off and landing side by side... draw a line on them to see where the angle is on take off and landing.

This is getting close I think to what I, a visual person, actually need to see on a vid. Taking the jump clip in question, remove the commentator's voice and put in someone describing the jump in slow mo and stop action. Then, take
a very good completed jump and do the same, then put them side by side.

 

[CoyoteChris]

Not really....I'm sure there are all sorts of people that just listen to Kurt regardless of the evidence and truth of the matter at hand. I'm just not one of them. I'll trust the video myself. YMMV.

I have to say, and this isnt aimed at KB only, that Satako's jumps are extreamely difficult to see in real time, be it on the ice (I have been 20 ft feet away from her at SA 15 and SC14 during practice) or watching her on video. Anyone that says they can call all of her jumps perfectly in that manner without slo mo replay is kidding themselves and others. I have no idea why this isnt discussed in detail in the after event judges meeting, with the benefit of network provided slo mo. Or maybe it is. The elephant in the room is that they really dont have all that much time allocated to review jumps during the event and the crowd wants the results NOW and not after the event. So Satako presents a problem/dilemma for them. As far as KB, or any commemtator, he /she SHOULD review these jumps and at least be diplomatic like Scotty or ornary like Dick B., but not sit there and say the jump was perfect...and phooey on NBC if Johnny and Tara and Terry dont point this problem out....

 

[Tavi...]

What I find interesting is that the Eurosport commentator didn't mention it, even though he was clearly watching her feet. I wonder why? Did he not realize what he was seeing?

 

[CoyoteChris]

What I find interesting is that the Eurosport commentator didn't mention it, even though he was clearly watching her feet. I wonder why? Did he not realize what he was seeing?

Call me cynical, but that guy seems to know what he is talking about and I would guess he was "in the sport" earlier in life...just a guess. My guess is that he didnt want to make waves....or was told not to.