Chan v. Hanyu: 2015-16

[Ophelia]

You implied the talk about Patrick's SS is akin to being assessed for qualification as best ice dancer...:disapp:

No. My point was that Patrick's fans go on and on (and on) these days about Chan's SS and how he's a true ~*~artistic skater~*~ because of his SS, no one can match up to his SS, his programs have the best SS, "figure skating is the mastery of SS", that I don't know if we're discussing ice dancing or figure skating anymore.

 

[qwertyskates]

No. My point was that Patrick's fans go on and on (and on) these days about Chan's SS and how he's a true ~*~artistic skater~*~ because of his SS, no one matches up to his SS, his programs have the best SS, "figure skating is the mastery of SS", that I don't know if we're discussing ice dancing or figure skating anymore.

You mean, unlike Hanyu's fans who politely withheld their praise, instead of splashing them over pages and pages of the forum?:sarcasm:

I'm very tired of snark, especially from those who don't really even seem to understand basic tenets of the sport.

 

[Interspectator]

This forum is to talk about skaters and skating and how much we love it and where we don't agree.
If this devolves into a X-fan VS Y-fan battle, the thread may be closed.

 

[Mathman]

There's a "middle-aged" woman that skates at the same rink I do. She can't do any jumps, spins and very few moves in the field. Aside from a few figure skating lessons that she undertook AS AN ADULT she is not a figure skater (she instead calls herself a power skater). she can hydroblade achieving the exact same very low positions that I see in competitive programs achieving decent speeds.

 

[yellowricenoodle]

Hello! I'm new to GoldenSkate but I've been following the rivalry between Hanyu and Patrick for a while It's nice to see them progress over the years but I've noticed a significant difference in their philosophy in skating. Here are my 2 cents on Hanyu vs Patrick.

Patrick believes that skating is not just about the jumps - it's everything including the movements, from his core to his fingertips and every little details. His emphasis is on the expression through body movement on ice. Also judging by the way he reacted to the quad controversy during Plushenko's olympics, he definitely believes that figure skating is an art itself. There is an interview video on youtube where he said "there is a limit to how much you can jump, but movements are infinite". Very very beautiful and I think that's why he chooses a dance instructor as his coach.

Hanyu, on the other hands, likes the technical part. He likes to challenge his body's limit and bring it to the next level. To me, that sounds more like a remark from an athlete. But he is also very smart to know how to work according to the rules of his sports as well. He KNOWS that there is an artistic sides of figure skating, and that Patrick has the upper hand. So in addition to his jumps, he works on transitions and difficulty of his program to compromise the gap between his component scores and Patrick's. He frequently mention Patrick as someone who made him have the desire to work on more quads, and improve more on his skating skills because otherwise, it is impossible to beat him.

I do admire Patrick's skating. His use of edge and his body movement is definitely one of the top. But in figure skating, there is a max on the component scores - 50 in SP, 100 in FP, whereas the bound for TES is just going to keep being raised in the future.

Figure skating is an interesting sport because it combines the arts and sports. But having beautiful skate can only get you so far. Beyond that, you need to have the jumps. The Chan-Hanyu rivalry exactly reflects this. In other words, in figure skating you can't be a top skater if you don't have the component scores. But once you've reached the top, it is the TES and the consistency that determines the podium placement.

Patrick's contribution to push the artistic side of figure skating is something that we have to acknowledge. But unfortunately, Patrick was too stubborn with his philosophy and he only focused on one of the two sides of the sport.
From this perspective, Patrick needs to change the way he sees figure skating now. He can't be relying on his artistic side anymore to get him to the top of the podium. I think he has realised this after GPF. And I'm excited to see his progress on his jumps in the future. After all, figure skating is a sport. You can't ignore that. Hanyu and Javi have improved their PCS and established themselves as the top skaters. The judges know where they stand in the component sides. They're on par with Patrick, and now, what the figure skating demand from these top skaters, is the quad. And that, means a test of your physical limit.

Their rivalry has so much impact on the sports. Before Hanyu and Javi reach this level of skating, Patrick has been leading the sports with his superior skating skills and mesmerising body movements on ice. The 3 years when he was the World Champion, everyone worked on the PCS to catch up with Patrick. But that was then, this is now. At this stage of the sport, Patrick now has to do the catch up.

I'm excited to see how this rivalry will end at Pyeongchang.

 

[Tavi...]

Absolutely not...hydroblading is a move for speed skaters to negotiate turns and corners, it's for RESTING and keeping one's balance while speeding, SS is based on challenging one's balance and strength, they are complete opposite in their function. Hydroblading is visually fun, that is all.

This is what annoys me, a lot of fun, crowd pleasing moves are mistaken as SS moves and fans expect these to be hallmarks of great skating skills! And then they booboo Patrick's *true* SS moves...:noshake:

However, Patrick needs to face this new reality that audience's approval will influence judges, and why not these "resting" moves that help him to take a breather the better to deliver his TES?

Umm. I'm not sure that how speed skaters use hydro blading is relevant in figure skating. I believe Hanyu had already done 3 quads by the time he executed that hydroblade, which is in the middle of a choreo sequence . In Riverdance, Jason used it as a transition between a triple flip-double toe and a double axel - in fact, he went immediately up from a brief hydro blade to the 2A. So the challenge was maintaining balance through out that entire sequence. And incidentally, he performed the move at about the 4 minute mark, after his very taxing footwork, a Russian split, six triples and two doubles. Not really comparable to what a speed skater does.

 

[Mathman]

Hello! I'm new to GoldenSkate but I've been following the rivalry between Hanyu and Patrick for a while It's nice to see them progress over the years but I've noticed a significant difference in their philosophy in skating. Here are my 2 cents on Hanyu vs Patrick. …

Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful post, and welcome!

I do not agree, however, that Patrick excels at the artistic side of the sport. In recent years I would list Stephan Lambiel, Daisuke Takahashi, and maybe even Jeremy Abbott as skaters who put more emphasis on musical interpretation, choreography and artistic expression.

Where Patrick does excel, IMHO, is in blade to ice skills. In fact, I would go so far as to say that he was the first skater to recognize that quality of edge, precision in steps and turns, etc., are exactly what the (then) new judging system was eager to reward.

 

[yellowricenoodle]

Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful post, and welcome!

I do not agree, however, that Patrick excels at the artistic side of the sport. In recent years I would list Stephan Lambiel, Daisuke Takahashi, and maybe even Jeremy Abbott as skaters who put more emphasis on musical interpretation, choreography and artistic expression.

Where Patrick does excel, IMHO, is in blade to ice skills. In fact, I would go so far as to say that he was the first skater to recognize that quality of edge, precision in steps and turns, etc., are exactly what the (then) new judging system was eager to reward.

Absolutely. In terms of musical interpretation, Patrick is not the only one who excels in it Interpretation depends a lot on the choice of music too so the list could go on and on....
I'm also relatively new to figure skating sports so I'm not familiar with the other legends. But I'm sure they're great too!!

I agree with you on the 2nd part but Patrick is also very skilled at picking the music that works very well for him. Those classical musics that he chooses highlights his body movement. His excellence control of blade also allowed him to be very precise with his steps. Each pauses and turns fits the notes of the music precisely. That's why I think he could earn those PCS.
But honestly, Patrick seems to be struggling with his current SP Mack the Knife. He acknowledges that it's out of his comfort zone. I think his skating style is not as versatile as Hanyu or Daisuke's. which is a shame because I think he's really beautiful to watch on ice.

 

[4everchan]

as a musician, i feel chan's interpretation is more wholesome and genuine as it goes from the blade through the whole body... there are a lot of skaters who interpret music with arms and facial expression but these movements sometimes are not grounded into the core nor do they are felt into the entire body. So, we can see things differently, but to me, and this is WHY, i became such a fan of Patrick's skating, his musicality is DEEP... and that to me, is much more important. The Chopin he is doing this year, is out of this world in terms of a skater depicting the emotions of the music. It's a masterpiece, a rare one. this fancam video clearly shows the emotion and artistry in Patrick's connection with the music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKk1h3_cULQ

Thanks for the thoughtful and insightful post, and welcome!

I do not agree, however, that Patrick excels at the artistic side of the sport. In recent years I would list Stephan Lambiel, Daisuke Takahashi, and maybe even Jeremy Abbott as skaters who put more emphasis on musical interpretation, choreography and artistic expression.

Where Patrick does excel, IMHO, is in blade to ice skills. In fact, I would go so far as to say that he was the first skater to recognize that quality of edge, precision in steps and turns, etc., are exactly what the (then) new judging system was eager to reward.

 

[Krunchii]

Then would you please post a video of you demonstrating a hydroblade on figure skates to demonstrate how easy it is? It requires not only strength and balance, but flexibility as well. There's a reason you don't see a lot of skaters doing them, and even fewer skaters doing them well. And don't even get me started on cantilevers! Those are twice as hard! Having said all of that, these difficult moves would be rewarded more under the "Transitions" and "Choreography" marks than the "Skating Skills" mark.

Hydroblade is considered a pretty easy move actually, my friend who coaches teaches all her young students to hydroblade and they love it because it's such a fun move to perform, it's definitely on the easier side when it comes to transitions but looks very impressive. Cantilevers are harder depending on your flexibility, some young skaters just don't have enough strength around the feet to keep it in the spread position. It's okay if hydroblade isn't considered that hard of a move, the part in Seimei's ChSq where he does the hydroblade is etched in my mind because it was so well done to the music. I literally felt my heart speed up haha

 

[AprilS]

On the topic of hydroblading (and cantelevers), I don't really think including it or not should affect SS marks - I mean, it's like how many seconds in a 4+ minute program? However, if they work with the choreography and highlight the music, I think they could definitely increase Ch marks and/or even Int or PE marks. If they're used as a transition into a jump (like Jason't Riverdance), I can even see them increasing Transition marks.

 

[penguin]

Arguing that hydroblading is easy (in reference to Hanyu's incredibly demanding program) is totally missing the forest for the trees. Why not argue against the use of spirals and Ina Bauers, then, if they don't reflect difficult skating skills? Not all skating is meant to be purely difficult -- there's beauty and grace and aesthetics, too. You can't do ONLY transitions and steps and difficult moves and cut out all the grace moves. It's like saying that a good musician should play at allegro or presto tempos, but adagio doesn't prove anything since it's slower and easier.

 

[blueberryhill]

Ooh Shiny!!!

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Arguing that hydroblading is easy (in reference to Hanyu's incredibly demanding program) is totally missing the forest for the trees. Why not argue against the use of spirals and Ina Bauers, then, if they don't reflect difficult skating skills? Not all skating is meant to be purely difficult -- there's beauty and grace and aesthetics, too. You can't do ONLY transitions and steps and difficult moves and cut out all the grace moves. It's like saying that a good musician should play at allegro or presto tempos, but adagio doesn't prove anything since it's slower and easier.

I thoroughly agree... I was about to bring up the point of cantilevers and hydroblading essentially being in the same category of spread eagles and spirals (respectively), and if anything they're way harder because they incorporate an element of body weight balancing (in spirals/spread eagles, your upper body is over your skates, but in cantilevers/hydroblading it's lower and requires way more balance and more speed to execute). Hanyu's hydroblading in particular is difficult because it's at the very end of the program when you're more tired, and he also moves his hands/arms as he does it.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Hydroblade is considered a pretty easy move actually,

For a young skater with flexibility that's shorter, it's quite easy... but it can also be quite risky too. I know one guy who did amazing hydroblading and was so low that the right side of his body would literally be brushing the ice, such that it almost looked like he was doing a death spiral. Similar to https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/58/90/b8/5890b8893a6c29e6fa620ca9d01766b7.jpg

 

[David21]

A skater with inferior SS can't execute such difficult programs with top quality. I also don't see how a skater executing a much easier program shows superior skills. I'm really puzzled why fans think by default that Patrick's SS is better when he skates to a much lesser layout with easier transitions than someone (Yuzuru) who skates a much more difficult program that has much harder transitions, executed with top quality. What justifies Patrick having better SS? Skaters need to show their skills through both difficulty and quality. What more should Yuzuru do to convince fans that he has better skills when he already executed the most difficult programs in the history of figure skating with top quality?

Skating Skills (as PCS) have nothing to with the difficulty of the jumps. :disapp:

 

[gsyzf]

Skating Skills (as PCS) have nothing to with the difficulty of the jumps. :disapp:

Skating skill has something to do with the difficult of transitions, and to a less extent the difficulty of jumps. Difficulty is always relevant when assessing any skills.

 

[David21]

Skating skill has something to do with the difficult of transitions, and to a less extent the difficulty of jumps. Difficulty is always relevant when assessing any skills.

They very little have to do with the "difficult of transitions". Those are judged in the PCS under TR (Transitions).
The difficulty of jumps has absolutely ZERO to do with the Skating Skills. You can do only double jumps in one program and still deserve the highest scores for Skating Skills.

 

[gkelly]

We can look at skaters from earlier eras who were only doing double jumps, or minimal triples, and compare their skating skills as demonstrated in their freeskating programs to skaters today doing multiple triples and quads.

Certainly many top skaters of the past had high-level skating skills superior to average senior-level skaters today, even though their jump content was lower.

We can also look at transitions in past-era programs in terms of the same scale that we look at transitions in today's programs.

Of course, it is easier to do more difficult transitions when you're not also doing triples and quads and level 4 spins and step sequences. So there is reason to give a skater who does X level of transitions and also all those difficult elements a higher TR score than a skater who does a similar level of transitions and easier elements.

But if we're comparing a skater with difficult elements but not much difficulty in between vs. a skater with difficult in-betweens but easier elements, I'd expect the TR score to be higher for the latter -- also taking quality, intricacy (which can also be a measure of difficulty), and variety into account.

Regarding jump content and skating skills, it does take a minimum level of speed and control of takeoff edges to perform the more difficult jumps successfully. So I wouldn't expect, e.g., a skater who deserves SS scores in the 3s to pull off a triple axel or quad.

But if the skater does not demonstrate good balance, steady flow, deep edges, one-foot skating including a variety of one-foot turns, multidirectional skating (turns and travel paths, and changes of direction), etc., I would not expect them to earn high SS scores even if they do land lots of difficult jumps. Only as high as they actually demonstrate.

If a skater has beautiful high-quality counterclockwise crossovers and counterclockwise threes and mohawks, along with difficult elements, and not much else at all throughout the program besides the elements, what kind of SS and TR scores should that earn? Maybe 6s for Skating Skills (adjusted up for good complex step sequences?) and 4s or lower for Transitions?

If they have difficult, varied, high-quality complex skating, highlight moves, and transitions leading in and out of good easier jumps, between the jumps and spins, why can't they earn SS and TR scores at least in the 8s even if they don't have the difficult jumps?

But a skater who can do all of the above and also land the difficult jumps could get 9s.

 

[gsyzf]

They very little have to do with the "difficult of transitions". Those are judged in the PCS under TR (Transitions).
The difficulty of jumps has absolutely ZERO to do with the Skating Skills. You can do only double jumps in one program and still deserve the highest scores for Skating Skills.

The logic is:

A skater who does difficult, varied, high-quality complex skating, highlight moves, and transitions leading in and out of high quality difficult jumps, between the jumps and spins, deserves a higher score than another skater who does easier high-quality skating, highlight moves, and transitions and easier jumps.

It wouldn't be fair for the former skater to get a lower score than the latter skater. The former skater demonstrates he has better skills.