Who will break Yuna Kim's record and when? | Page 7 | Golden Skate

Who will break Yuna Kim's record and when?

bara1968 said:
But are these performances necessarily better than top-notch performances (with less than 140) produced upto 2013 season? I really don't think so...)
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From a COP perspective, the average program is much better than those prior to 2013. If you compare Ashley's old programs to what she does now, you will see a striking difference in the complexity of the transitions, number of difficult jump entrances, etc. Her higher scores reflect that as well. There was a big jump from 2006 to 2010 as well; Yuna skated a much better gold winning LP than Shizuka, but Yuna's score was about 25 points higher. The sport moves forward, the programs get harder, and the scores get higher. It's going to keep happening, and whoever breaks these records will have their own broken in the coming years.
 
Wow looks like I struck a nerve somewhere.... oh well... :shrug: ...GOOD!!? :dev3:

MAXSwagg said:
It's hard when she got it with wonky valuations and GOE scaling. It's going to take someone with two triple triples and crystal clean skating. That just shows how flawed the valuations where back then...
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Oh plz... if you actually bother study the protocals, if anything, they were relatively stingey compare to how they reward GOEs and PCS compare with today, consider how well executed these program had been performed in its sophistication, intricacy with inspired moments of unsurpassed musicality.

Here are the ladies protocols

Vancouver 2010
Kim's SP (1 x +3 GOEs out of possibe 72), ALL PCS categories in the 8s
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/owg10_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

LP (6 x +3 GOEss out of possible 72), Only 3 PCS categories over 9s: 9.05 for SS, 9.15 for PE, 9.1 for interpretation. All under 9.2
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/owg10_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Look for Mao's score, she even have PCS categories for transitions in 7s for both programs.

How these performance measure up with today's high score performances, according to today's inflation on a relative basis actually support the opposite of what you are implying. Which is that they are undermarked by today's standard. (am I gushing? you bet! Vancouver winning ladies were simply among the greatest sporting moments ever in Winter Olympics - Under COP anyway, and started me here at GS... because how little COP they actually felt, in every moment, every phrasing. Not so with most of today's programs.)

Sochi 2014
SP http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

LP http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Count the number of generous +3 if you can, per specific nationality skaters. ;) Am I bashing? Hardly... when these trends and facts support my view for a few years now.

GPF 2016 Ladies FS
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/gpf1516/gpf1516_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

People keep playing down that Vancouver achievement down 'inflated score', but failed to address the entire field was inflated - starting with Lepisto's better than expected performance. While it is not the case with what is going on now. Where it is more selective inflation, or more specifically - inflation according to nationality. Boston should be very interesting... indeed!

As for whole NicoleH charades, well... :laugh: I am happy Evegenia got a passionate fan who think she is absolutely the greatest thing ever! Every skater could do with one of those.
 
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OS said:
Wow looks like I struck a nerve somewhere.... oh well... :shrug: ...GOOD!!? :dev3:



Oh plz... if you actually bother study the protocals, if anything, they were relatively stingey compare to how they reward GOEs and PCS compare with today, consider how well executed these program had been performed in its sophistication, intricacy with inspired moments of unsurpassed musicality.

Here are the ladies protocols

Vancouver 2010
Kim's SP (1 x +3 GOEs out of possibe 72), ALL PCS categories in the 8s
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/owg10_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

LP (6 x +3 GOEss out of possible 72), Only 3 PCS categories over 9s: 9.05 for SS, 9.15 for PE, 9.1 for interpretation. All under 9.2
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/owg10_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Look for Mao's score, she even have PCS categories for transitions in 7s for both programs.

How these performance measure up with today's high score performances, according to today's inflation on a relative basis actually support the opposite of what you are implying. Which is that they are undermarked by today's standard. (am I gushing? you bet! Vancouver winning skaters were simply among the greatest sporting moments ever in Winter Olympics - Under COP anyway, and started me here at GS... because how little COP they actually felt, in every moment, every phrasing. Not so with most of today's programs.)

Sochi 2014
SP http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf

LP http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2014/owg14_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

Count the number of generous +3 if you can, per specific nationality skaters. ;) Am I bashing? Hardly... when these trends and facts support my view for a few years now.

GPF 2016 Ladies FS
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/gpf1516/gpf1516_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

People keep playing down that Vancouver achievement down 'inflated score', but failed to address the entire field was inflated - starting with Lepisto's better than expected performance. While it is not the case with what is going on now. Where it is more selective inflation, or more specifically - inflation according to nationality. Boston should be very interesting... indeed!

As for whole NicoleH charades, well... :laugh: I am happy Evegenia got a passionate fan who think she is absolutely the greatest thing ever! Every skater could do with one of those.
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No. The fact that she got almost 15 points with one triple triple combination over someone with two triple Axels, shows that the GOE scaling was completely unfair, as well as the base values. Unless your Scott Hamilton who thinks just because 3Lz+3T is six rotations it should be worth more than 3A+2T, when 3A is incredibly more difficult than a 3Lz, let alone doing two 3A in one program. Also how she got the same score as Mao for the spiral sequence is very, very unusual. The closeness in the spins and step sequence is unusual as well.

Evan Lysacek is one of the most bland and underwhelming men's gold medalists in recent memory. Good skates but nothing memorable. Takahashi should've won the SP. Given the mistakes of Dai and Plush's execution of elements, I can give Evan the win, barely, over Takahashi, who should've been crushing both of the in the components.

Anyway, Medvedeva is also overscored in components and GOEs. She has a Julia Schindler's list program. Good to look at, clean performances, succeeds in bamboozling people into thinking its substantive. There's no depth. It's just like a toy. But if she breaks the record or gets near it at least she has worthy technical content to do it.
 
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MAXSwagg said:
No. The fact that she got almost 15 points with one triple triple combination over someone with two triple Axels, shows that the GOE scaling was completely unfair, as well as the base values. Unless your Scott Hamilton who thinks just because 3Lz+3T is six rotations it should be worth more than 3A+2T, when 3A is incredibly more difficult than a 3Lz, let alone doing two 3A in one program.

Evan Lysacek is one of the most bland and underwhelming men's gold medalists in recent memory. Good skates but nothing memorable. Takahashi should've won the SP. Given the mistakes of Dai and Plush's execution of elements, I can give Evan the win, barely, over Takahashi, who should've been crushing both of the in the components.
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Well I have never disagreed with the 3A base value or GOE value change. However you are talking about one of the greatest 3lz3t of all time at the Olympics. The only lady that delivered in both of her programs, vs an ify 3A (at the time) who did not do any 3/3s in both her short and long because she had problems with UR 2nd 3T. So it is hardly a valid argument, to reduce 2 whole programs consist of 7 minutes of figure skating to differences of just 2 jumps. In what other way apart from this 3A argument would you put Mao over Yuna in Vancouver? (btw I happen to think Mao's programs there were among of her greatest ever)

How biased you are, you just compared Yuna to Evan? Lol... wth?
 
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NicoleH said:
I don't think Kim's quality of the elements was that good, e.g. her spins are not as good as Evgenia's and Kim can't even do an Ina Bauer. Evgenia has better presentation and posture, and Kim also lips. Not Asada, she has too many underrotation problems.
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Aside from the factual inaccuracy of this post, I have to say the one area where Kim was remarkably flexible was in her back. Despite her lackluster leg positions, I don't think I've ever seen a layback spin as extended as hers. It was almost like a helicopter propeller. Her torso would go basically totally parallel, and her rotations were extremely fast.
 
MAXSwagg said:
No. The fact that she got almost 15 points with one triple triple combination over someone with two triple Axels, shows that the GOE scaling was completely unfair, as well as the base values. Unless your Scott Hamilton who thinks just because 3Lz+3T is six rotations it should be worth more than 3A+2T, when 3A is incredibly more difficult than a 3Lz, let alone doing two 3A in one program. Also how she got the same score as Mao for the spiral sequence is very, very unusual. The closeness in the spins and step sequence is unusual as well.

Evan Lysacek is one of the most bland and underwhelming men's gold medalists in recent memory. Good skates but nothing memorable. Takahashi should've won the SP. Given the mistakes of Dai and Plush's execution of elements, I can give Evan the win, barely, over Takahashi, who should've been crushing both of the in the components.

Anyway, Medvedeva is also overscored in components and GOEs. She has a Julia Schindler's list program. Good to look at, clean performances, succeeds in bamboozling people into thinking its substantive. There's no depth. It's just like a toy. But if she breaks the record or gets near it at least she has worthy technical content to do it.
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GOE is not exclusive to Yuna Kim. GOE is available to everybody, including Mao. Like I said, CoP really isn't to blame, rather, it's the fault of a skater to not use it to his/her maximum potential. Yuna's layout in Vancouver was extremely CoP friendly while Mao's wasn't, and that is because she lacked 3S and 3Lz. If you're an elite skater, it shouldn't be hard for you to figure out how to "build" a program that favors you the most in terms of points and difficulty, but you cannot blame the system for not giving the maximum value when your input isn't maxed out.
 
OS said:
Well I have never disagreed with the 3A base value or GOE value change. However you are talking about one of the greatest 3lz3t of all time at the Olympics. The only lady that delivered in both of her programs, vs an ify 3A (at the time) who did not do any 3/3s in both her short and long because she had problems with UR 2nd 3T. So it is hardly a valid argument, to reduce 2 whole programs consist of 7 minutes of figure skating to just 2 jumps. In what other way apart from this 3A argument would you put Mao over Yuna in Vancouver? (btw I happen to think Mao's programs there were among of her greatest ever)

How biased you are, you just compared Yuna to Evan? Lol... wth?
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Well, I was specifically talking about the valuations back then. Also, 3Lz+3T, she has a habit of having a toe hammer for Lutz and flip so good height and distance but not superb technique as everyone raves about. I had her winning in the end, mind you, and had Mao winning the SP over that cheesy Bond program (in my opinion, since we have to put that).

I did no comparison. You mentioned Yuna and Mao, then went onto briefly mention Evan. But it appears you edited that out.
 
MiRé said:
GOE is not exclusive to Yuna Kim. GOE is available to everybody, including Mao. Like I said, CoP really isn't to blame, rather, it's the fault of a skater to not use it to his/her maximum potential. Yuna's layout in Vancouver was extremely CoP friendly while Mao's wasn't, and that is because she lacked 3S and 3Lz. If you're an elite skater, it shouldn't be hard for you to figure out how to "build" a program that favors you the most in terms of points and difficulty, but you cannot blame the system for not giving the maximum value when your input isn't maxed out.
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Again, you're misconstruing my entire point. In my initial post, never said Yuna was this or that. I specifically said the points awarded by the system were not correct. OS brought up Yuna vs Mao and the scores, etc.
 
hello all ;)

i don't care about records... because in figure skating, the rules change everyday ;) and the judging too...

what matters most is what happens on the day ;)

in 2010, Kim was by far the best...

the fact that she maximized her opportunities back then shouldn't be taken against her...

let's live in the present now ;) mirror mirror who is the best skater skating today :) ?
 
4everchan said:
hello all ;)

i don't care about records... because in figure skating, the rules change everyday ;) and the judging too...

what matters most is what happens on the day ;)

in 2010, Kim was by far the best...

the fact that she maximized her opportunities back then shouldn't be taken against her...

let's live in the present now ;) mirror mirror who is the best skater skating today :) ?
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EVGENIA!!!! let's not go around in circles about her.......... :slink:
 
Judges are desperate to give to Evgenia the world record, but I doubt she get it at this worlds. There are high expectations about her. It is like Yulia in Sochi, very probably she will do a silly mistake, she could to win but not with a record.
 
MAXSwagg said:
Well, I was specifically talking about the valuations back then. Also, 3Lz+3T, she has a habit of having a toe hammer for Lutz and flip so good height and distance but not superb technique as everyone raves about. I had her winning in the end, mind you, and had Mao winning the SP over that cheesy Bond program (in my opinion, since we have to put that).

I did no comparison. You mentioned Yuna and Mao, then went onto briefly mention Evan. But it appears you edited that out.
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Not everyone raves about Kim's 3Lz+3T technique. I looked at Vancouver threads and I saw lots of people thought she was overscored, one reason was that she underrotated her 3T in the 3Lz+3T combo. Underrotaion and hammer toe are not good techniques.
 
NicoleH said:
Not everyone raves about Kim's 3Lz+3T technique. I looked at Vancouver threads and I saw lots of people thought she was overscored, one reason was that she underrotated her 3T in the 3Lz+3T combo. Underrotaion and hammer toe are not good techniques.
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Here's the thing about Yuna. IMO, of course. If there was ever a skater who knew how to work a judge (Maria Butyrskaya ) it was Yuna. I never saw her live but, I have seen some really good copies of her Bond Girl SP and she just didn't do anything wrong. You won't be able to convince me that she had a good spiral but.....She was a big jumper and a great performer. As a Judge, I can say without a doubt that it really does matter. When you've been sitting there for hours, it's like a breath of fresh air to have a skater, or in my case, dancer. Look you in the eye and force you to pay attention to them. It's money to a skater who can pull it off and that's why I continue to pick Med as the next World Champion.

I'm going to have to eat a lot of crow if Med loses.....:drama:
 
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NicoleH said:
Not everyone raves about Kim's 3Lz+3T technique. I looked at Vancouver threads and I saw lots of people thought she was overscored, one reason was that she underrotated her 3T in the 3Lz+3T combo. Underrotaion and hammer toe are not good techniques.
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Ah, the gift that keeps on giving. Yuna can't do Ina Bauers and Biellmanns and apparently she can't rotate a triple-triple either. Who knew? I'm learning so much. :-)
 
I can honestly say that among the skaters under CoP era, Yuna was one of the rare people who actually earned and deserved every bit of her scores, sometimes even underscored. Undermining Yuna's 3Lz+3T, which a lot of people including experts would agree that's one of the best if not the best, is unfair. We all have difference in opinion but at least give credit where credit is due. Nitpicking that tiny little bit of "hammer toe" and that little hook on some of her 3T, seriously? At least she has very little pre-rotation and actually leaves the ice as soon as her toe pick hits the ice unlike most other skaters who actually pivots more than half a rotation on the ice and/or launches fully forward.

As for the world record, I don't mind it to be beaten because the scoring trend keeps on changing. I'm glad the ladies are upping their technical content. I just wish their PCS would calm down.
 
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