29th Practice incident discussion

[qwertyskates]

How about because you can obviously do stuff if you're prepared to do it, but if you're set up do a jump that moment, that certain way, and then turn around to see somebody is in the way, it's not quite the same?
This wasn't just Yuzu practicing a single, isolated jump - it was a jump out of complex, set choreography.

And one can have any opinion about what either party said afterwards, but I kind of think the important thing is what happened and what the skaters did on the ice. I really don't understand how anyone can say there was absolutely nothing wrong with what Denis did. I don't even care if it was intentional or not, because we have no chance of knowing. But he was in Yuzu's way repeatedly while Yuzu's music was playing, and that endangered both of them. Yes, collisions do happen, but just because they sadly will happen sometimes that's no excuse to not do your best to avoid them. Denis - from everything that we've seen - clearly didn't do that. Pretty sure if every skater just started to think the way Denis and Frank Carroll are explaining now, nobody would ever get to do half of a program run-through at all.

And in that sense, it needs to be made clear to him that he can not show that kind of negligent behavior towards other skaters. If a face to face talk between him and Yuzu wasn't enough to make him see that, then IMO the JSF filling an official complaint is the right thing to do. This doesn't mean a witch-hunt or "destroying anybody's reputation forever" or whatever, but a clear sign that what he did wasn't okay. Denis had enough chances to clear this up too - it looks like a simple apology would have gone a long way - but he decided not to do it. He's surely not some poor little victim being attacked by Yuzu now.

Again, I feel under attack here and misunderstood. I didn't say that Denis is right, Hanyu has all sorts of ways to get things righted without going to the media to accuse Denis of sabotage.

I said that making such a public accusation of Denis "intentional sabotage", without concrete evidence in the middle of a competition is WRONG. You are presumed innocent, can be careless, neglectful, oblivious, etc, until you are proven guilty of the CRIME, Denis deserves this right, he doesn't deserve his character besmirched like this and splashed across all the press of the world.

 

[qwertyskates]

Do you guys realize what had happened?

Denis is being accused of intentional sabotage splashed across the newspapers all over the world.

It is just so very wrong to accuse Denis like a public lynching without the evidence.

Who is being victimised here? I've had enough, I won't post anymore.

 

[Lysambre]

Do you guys realize what had happened?

Denis is being accused of intentional sabotage splashed across the newspapers all over the world.

Who is being victimised here? I've had enough, I won't post anymore.

Errr, sorry to tell you, but no, that incident has about 0% importance in my country, people aren't even watching skating, they have no idea who either Denis or Yuzu are.

Denis would kindly tell you that you are probably over-reacting and that isn't allowed in Frank's rink (the irony...).

(also, posing as the victim once you'fe failed to convince people you were "right all along" and then storming out : typical blablabla, I think I've said it enough, it gets tireing.)

 

[hurrah]

Do you guys realize what had happened?

Denis is being accused of intentional sabotage splashed across the newspapers all over the world.

Who is being victimised here? I've had enough, I won't post anymore.

Yuna apparently accused 'Japanese skaters' of intentional sabotage which was splashed across various news outlets, and it sure didn't make any dent on the reputation of 'Japanese skaters'.

If you're a fan of Denis, maybe you can take comfort in that.

 

[Yatagarasu]

I didn't say that Denis is right, I said that making such a public accusation of Denis "intentional sabotage", without concrete evidence in the middle of a competition is WRONG.

There is plenty of evidence. Just from the first practice
https://45.media.tumblr.com/476a3dff13a7ee29ce157bdddb837f14/tumblr_o4xfn9q8TQ1rp3ki0o1_400.gif

That is not good, in any way, on its own. These are just practices that fans have taken video of. There are numerous fan accounts. Journalists were there.

Ten is in the wrong here. He needs to shut up, his coach needs to shut up, and they need to let this blow over. It hasn't reached the point where it's truly damaging for him and he should keep it that way. Also flouncing off when you don't get your way is kind of passe.

 

[qwertyskates]

There is plenty of evidence. Just from the first practice
https://45.media.tumblr.com/476a3dff13a7ee29ce157bdddb837f14/tumblr_o4xfn9q8TQ1rp3ki0o1_400.gif

That is not good, in any way, on its own. These are just practices that fans have taken video of. There are numerous fan accounts. Journalists were there.

Ten is in the wrong here. He needs to shut up, his coach needs to shut up, and they need to let this blow over. It hasn't reached the point where it's truly damaging for him and he should keep it that way.

Actually until there has been an investigation and it shows Denis was deliberately going for Hanyu, no one should make public allegations without proof.

I have no idea if your country reads figure skating news, but NO DOUBT that in the FS world which affects Denis' career, this very public, media news initiated by Hanyu has already harmed his reputation.

Please put yourselves in Denis' shoes for a change!

I'm not a fan of Denis, but a fan of justice and fairness and presumption of innocence until proven guilty, and no, until an official investigation is reached there is NO PROOF of sabotage by Denis. However, he has already beenn publicly lynched, ok?
'NOT A FAN OF THAT = ME

 

[eta]

Do you guys realize what had happened?

Denis is being accused of intentional sabotage splashed across the newspapers all over the world.

Who is being victimised here? I've had enough, I won't post anymore.

One must take responsibility for one's actions.

Plus, it's not as if the media hasn't always been this way.

As for the victim, I'd say that would be the person who almost got into an accident for a third time after talking to the other party about being more careful.

 

[leolion11]

Do you guys realize what had happened?

Denis is being accused of intentional sabotage splashed across the newspapers all over the world.

It is just so very wrong to accuse Denis like a public lynching without the evidence.

Who is being victimised here? I've had enough, I won't post anymore.

Wow you're acting like there is all the evidence in the world that points to Denis' innocence. Not saying he isn't, but you don't even seem to be considering that he is in the wrong here.

Who IS being victimised here is Yuzuru who had gotten his practice session interrupted by a skater who is seemingly ignorant of practice session rules and yet refuses to apologise and allows his coach to make excuses for him and throw shade at Yuzuru :disapp:

 

[katha]

This is a very interesting thread.

 

[apple123]

and just for you know: regarding yuzu's popularity in China（where pooh rains after yuzu performance） and COC incident, Chinese organizers did equip for yuzu a exclusive vehicle (and body guards)

So the bus thing is real. What a diva lifestyle. No wonder he and his fans are demanding to get right of their ways now.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Do you guys realize what had happened?

Denis is being accused of intentional sabotage splashed across the newspapers all over the world.

It is just so very wrong to accuse Denis like a public lynching without the evidence.

Who is being victimised here? I've had enough, I won't post anymore.

You're over-dramatizing this juuuuust a bit. And again, as others have said: 1.) we do have at least partial evidence, all of which really doesn't make Denis look good, 2.) Denis had opportunities to soften the issue (i.e. apologizing for example) but didn't do so. Instead, his and Franks comments are making it even worse - yet their words don't seem to look wrong or bad to you compared to Yuzu's.

To make that clear: I wished Yuzu wouldn't have said that "intentional" stuff. But I'd still rather have someone say openly and honestly what they think (and he is allowed to have that opinion and has reason to think so, even if it might be ultimately wrong) than throwing shade the way Denis and Frank did. At least own up to what you think.

 

[eta]

So the bus thing is real. What a diva lifestyle. No wonder he and his fans are demanding to get right of their ways now.

So having his own transport = diva? Heh.

And right-of-way during run-throughs ALWAYS EXISTED. It isn't a new "now" thing.

 

[apple123]

Yuna apparently accused 'Japanese skaters' of intentional sabotage which was splashed across various news outlets, and it sure didn't make any dent on the reputation of 'Japanese skaters'.

If you're a fan of Denis, maybe you can take comfort in that.

Now you mention it, I have to laugh at the double standard of Japanese fans and media. At that time, they attacked Yuna and called her a lunatic for saying that, now the wind turned around, and they are saying exactly the opposite because Hanyu is the victim. Lol

 

[melmel]

But it's only here that there is drama. Even as annoying and blinded Frank Caroll's interview was it's here and media trying to stir the sh*t. There's not even the slightest confirmation that JSF went through the warning.

Nobody is really accusing Denis of sabotage, and clearly everyone at Worlds has moved on and this outrage here is just completely ridiculous.

 

[Yatagarasu]

Please put yourselves in Denis' shoes for a change!

I am interested in the victim, one Yuzuru Hanyu and the general safety issues that become clear thanks to this entire situation. It is not just Hanyu Ten got too close to in practices. You can care about the Ten all you want, I am not required to. Actions have consequences and he is a grown up, so he is going to have to deal with it. He could have solved this when Hanyu first approached him, instead he chose the other way. His choice.

Denis is being negligent. His own words speak to that. I don't know what his state of mind is due to all of his injuries or if this is simply how he is but at the point where it starts affecting others then it becomes a problem. It is a problem that is easily solvable and if there is a sane person in his Federation they are already taking care of it.

I also do find it amusing though how you ask for evidence then promptly ignore it.

 

[qwertyskates]

Like I said 1 million times, innocent until proven guilty by an investigation conducted by a reputable authority which has access to all the evidence.



No doubt those who are not fans of Denis don't care about his reputation shredded like this on HEARSAY and in the media circus and court of public opinion, but I CARE as a person who is against public accusations without due process. Any skater, including Denis, deserves as much.

If he has been investigated and found to have intentionally, and not unintentionally attempting to hurt Hanyu, then of course he deserves his career and reputation stained by this, but until such has happened, it is wrong to shred Denis in the press.

 

[Lysambre]

Actually until there has been an investigation and it shows Denis was deliberately going for Hanyu, no one should make public allegations without proof.

I have no idea if your country reads figure skating news, but NO DOUBT that in the FS world which affects Denis' career, this very public, media news initiated by Hanyu has already harmed his reputation.

Please put yourselves in Denis' shoes for a change!

ok, here I am, putting myself in his shoes.

Day 1 : I'm totally into my skating, not being aware of anything happening around me. After practice, a skater comes to tell me I got in their way during their music, twice. I realise I was maybe too into my skating, I apologise (see, right from the start, the magical word).

Day 2 : Despite what happened the day before (let's say I have short term memory problems?), I once again am 100% focused 100% on myself despite sharing a ring with 5 of the best skaters there is out there. One of these skater suddenly screams at me because I'm in the way, I see him veer off, jump and fall. I feel absolutely terrible. I go over, help them up (if they accept my help), I apologise with everything I have for being lost in my own thoughts.

Is that good enough for you? Is that the way any other skater should have behaved? (hint : the answer is yes)


Now, an exercise for you : put yourself in Hanyu's shoes, the same way I just did for Ten. What would you have done that still remains a normal (and polite) reaction?

 

[leolion11]

So the bus thing is real. What a diva lifestyle. No wonder he and his fans are demanding to get right of their ways now.

Do you have a personal vendetta against Yuzuru? Why the relentless hate towards him when it is clear he is the victim here? You need to stop.

 

[hurrah]

Now you mention it, I have to laugh at the double standard of Japanese fans and media. At that time, they attacked Yuna and called her a lunatic for saying that, now the wind turned around, and they are saying exactly the opposite because Hanyu is the victim. Lol

Yeah, a part of me wishes Yuna had the balls to show some actual footage of the intrusion and own up to her own accusations later. 'Cause her categorical 'Japanese skaters' statement made Mao have to give a public statement where she had to deny that she, at least, was not one of those 'Japanese skaters'. Yuna caused Mao some stress and it was that moment that I came to dislike Yuna as a competitor.

If you are so certain of Denis' and Frank Caroll's innocence, you shouldn't have to worry. Yuna's accusation didn't make any dent on the reputation of 'Japanese skaters'. If it's the same situation, then this whole thing won't make any iota of difference to Denis' reputation.

 

[qwertyskates]

ok, here I am, putting myself in his shoes.

Day 1 : I'm totally into my skating, not being aware of anything happening around me. After practice, a skater comes to tell me I got in their way during their music, twice. I realise I was maybe too into my skating, I apologise (see, right from the start, the magical word).

Day 2 : Despite what happened the day before (let's say I have short term memory problems?), I once again am 100% focused 100% on myself despite sharing a ring with 5 of the best skaters there is out there. One of these skater suddenly screams at me because I'm in the way, I see him veer off, jump and fall. I feel absolutely terrible. I go over, help them up (if they accept my help), I apologise with everything I have for being lost in my own thoughts.

Is that good enough for you? Is that the way any other skater should have behaved? (hint : the answer is yes)


Now, an exercise for you : put yourself in Hanyu's shoes, the same way I just did for Ten. What would you have done that still remains a normal (and polite) reaction?

It's simple, I'd promptly go to the organizers, tell them about Denis getting in the way of my practice, request that they usher Denis to the side or out of the rink, in fact, just give me the rink for 5 minutes with nobody in it just so I can achieve what I need to achieve, have a run through the way I needed it.

I can even request that they give Frank and Denis a warning about this. I solve my issue with Denis, and I don't have to tell the world.

I hated that Yuna/Mao war but Yuna didn't conduct a press conference to accuse Japanese skaters, just her fans putting up youtube videos, so at least it's in the realm of gossip, not NEWS.