"Your" scoring of the 2016 Worlds' Ladies

[drivingmissdaisy]

The CoP was ballyhooed as a system that that had sufficient objectivity that this sort of "ordinal judging in disguise" would fade away as being old-fashioned 6.0 thinking. I guess it didn't work out that way.

It is more objective to me, but still you have a finite number of available scores to give out to a large number of skaters. When Ashley skated her SP, she skated very well but there were at least 5 skaters who potentially could have skated a lights-out SP and topped Ashley. Most of the judges left room for any or all of those skaters to surpass her PCS scores. Is there any other way to accommodate those upcoming skaters other than to leave room? In the LP, she was about a half point higher on every PCS criterion, in large part because there was no uncertainty about how others would perform. The judges were able to assess her performance against the entire field at that point. I don't see where the controversy in any of this is.

 

[Blades of Passion]

When two skaters perform an hour (or more) apart, it is very difficult to get the relative scores right between those two skaters. Ashley's LP score was high because she skated last in a well-skated event; the same is true for Gracie in the SP.

Skate order shouldn't have anything to do with it and there's no reason why the judges should be giving Ashley the highest skating skills score of the competition when she is obviously not the best in that area. If the Program Components were being judged correctly, then the judges would have a list in front of them of every component score they gave to each competitor, and would be comparing and checking the programs in their mind on each component.

This is why competitions need two separate panels of judges, one for Technical Elements and one for Program Components. The judges obviously aren't thinking critically enough about the Program Components and the time to do so is being taken away by the necessity of needing to looking at Technical Element replays.

Scoring this event has also made me feel more strongly than ever that the Short Program and Long Program should be different events. Having a 0.56 point differential between 3rd to 6th place in the combined scores is such a virtually insignificant degree of separation, where you're kind of just looking at a dice roll to decide the overall placement. It becomes too insignificant.

Also, skaters deserve to have more medal opportunities anyway. Look at how many medals there are in other sports. It's silly that figure skating still has only one. I believe the judging itself would also be better if the Short Program and Long Program were separated; there would be no need to prop someone up just because of their strong Short Program giving them "momentum" going into the Long Program, or holding them down just because their weaker Short Program taking away from their "momentum" going into the Long Program.

 

[jenaj]

It's true...I am Rika Hongo and I will not be pushed aside anymore. Miyahara doesn't rotate her jumps, does she even really jump at all? How does she keep beating me all the time?



The judges at competitions are not professionals, seeing as how they are unpaid and appointed by individual countries, with no real regulation from the International Skating Union as to their actual merit as judges.

Feel free to point out which my scores you disagree with and share your own scores and assessment of every single element and every single component from every competitor. That is what this thread is about, after all.

I noticed when the judges were announced in Boston, they were announced as "from the ISU." Is this something new or just a technicality, with the judges still sponsored by their federations?

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Scoring this event has also made me feel more strongly than ever that the Short Program and Long Program should be different events. Having a 0.56 point differential between 3rd to 6th place in the combined scores is such a virtually insignificant degree of separation, where you're kind of just looking at a dice roll to decide the overall placement. It becomes too insignificant.

I also am troubled by final placements separated by small margins when skate order can more than account for those differences. I'm not sure what a practical solution to this is. There are 9 judges and 3 tech panel members, so maybe some other allocation of that group you suggest would be preferable. I'm still not convinced that, in practice, a separate PCS panel would be immune from scoring abnormalities due to skate order or home advantage.

 

[largeman]

Thank you BoP. Two questions for you (and everyone):

1. Do you not think Gracie deserved a < on the toeloop where she fell (not that it would've made much of a difference to the score, I know): https://youtu.be/IVOTAgMS_5I?t=6m1s

2. Does Anna have a good lutz technique? Sure her takeoff edge is a clean outside edge, but it barely seems to have any counter-rotation from what I could see?

Thanks

 

[KatGrace1925]

This competition was seriously inflated. Standings aside I just mentally knock everyone down 10 points and I feel better about it but your standings are pretty great aside from I do think Wagner had the skate of her life in the short and long and deserved every point of PCS she got, so I would keep her in second.

 

[StitchMonkey]

It is more objective to me, but still you have a finite number of available scores to give out to a large number of skaters. When Ashley skated her SP, she skated very well but there were at least 5 skaters who potentially could have skated a lights-out SP and topped Ashley. Most of the judges left room for any or all of those skaters to surpass her PCS scores. Is there any other way to accommodate those upcoming skaters other than to leave room? In the LP, she was about a half point higher on every PCS criterion, in large part because there was no uncertainty about how others would perform. The judges were able to assess her performance against the entire field at that point. I don't see where the controversy in any of this is.

No, you don't. I know of no rules saying you can only give out a single 8.00. If 5 skates have skating skills of 8, you give them all an 8. If there is a tie there is a tie, if it is close it is close. That is not a problem really. PCS have fixed criteria, they do not change over the course of the competition. Skaters should be scored on what they put on the ice... if that is the same of 1, 5 or 10 other skaters, so be it. If the ISU has an issue with that, they can issue revised more detailed criteria.

 

[andyjo24]

So here are my SP Scores! I only did the top 7 ladies + Mao. My scores aren't super detailed like BoP because I'm currently busy, but here they are. I based these scores off my live experience at the arena as well as some slow-mo replays. I'll try to get the FS in some time this week too. More people should participate! It'll make it fun!

1) Anna Pogorilaya

TES
3Lz+3T (+2): 11.70/ Extremely high-quality combination; good speed into and out of the combo; high and long-distance
3Lo (+1.5): 6.15/ Not the most difficult transitions into the jump but nice high jump with flawless landing
FCSp4 (+1): 3.70/ Camel position is not fully extended; nice positions otherwise; spin not completely centered
2A (+1.5): 4.38/ Nicely landed double axel but the jump could be higher
CcoSp3p4 (+1): 4.00/Camel position does not look perfectly aligned; did not fully sit in the sit position; good speed; a little bit uncentered towards the end
StSq4 (+3): 6.00/ Extremely powerful and dramatic step sequence; perfectly matches the music; great facial expressions; edges are strong
Lsp4 (+1.5): 3.45/ Great speed but not completely centered and the Biellman is ugly.

TES Total: 39.38

PCS
SS: 8.50/ Strong edges and control; Great speed across the ice throughout the whole program
T: 8.00/ Not the most difficult transitions but well done and incorporated nicely into the program
Per: 9.50/ Very dramatic and powerful performance; performs from the very beginning to the end of the program; the step sequence captured my attention
C: 9.00/ Very interesting and nice choreography to go along with the dramatic music.
I: 9.25/ Nicely interpreted all throughout; step sequence matched the accents of the music very well; arm movements were powerful yet not overly flailing

PCS Total: 35.40

Total for AP: 39.38 + 35.40 = 74.78

2) Rika Hongo

TES
3F (+1.5): 6.88/ Good speed going into the jump; good height and distance
FCSp4 (+1): 3.70/ Not the best speed and positions but okay
Lsp4 (+1): 3.20/ Okay but not the best; kind of slow relative to others
3T+3T (+2): 10.86/ Great height and distance
2A (+1.5): 4.38/ Good flow out, good height
StSq4 (+2.5): 5.65/ Extremely powerful steps; great edges; matches the climax of the music well
CcoSp3p4 (+1.5): 4.25/ Solid spin but not the best in terms of speed, positioning, and centering

TES Total: 38.92

PCS
SS: 8.25/ Solid speed and great edgework
T: 8.00/ Solid transitions
P: 8.50/ Very powerful and impactful performance but needs to work on posture
C: 8.75/ Innovative choreography and impactful
I: 8.75/ Great interpretation; shows fire and power

PCS Total: 33.80

Total Score for RH: 38.92 + 33.80 = 72.72

3) Gracie Gold

TES
3Lz+3T (+1): 11.00/ The lutz was a little forward, but the combination was landed nicely.
Lsp3 (+2): 3.40/ Very fast, centered, good but not the very best positions
FCSp4 (+1.5): 3.95/ Very fast and centered but positions could be stretched out a little more
3F! (0): 5.83/ Okay jump but the edge was not a clear outside edge
2A (+1): 4.13/ Nice landing but not very high.
StSq4 (+2): 5.30/ Very fast, matches the accents of the music, too much arm flailing so not a +3
CcoSp3p4 (+1.5): 4.25/ Very fast and centered, but again not the prettiest positions

TES Total: 37.86

PCS
SS: 8.75/ Extremely solid edges and control; fast speed
T: 8.25/ Good number of transitions in and out of all the elements; well incorporated into the music, transitions can be more difficult
Per: 8.75/ Highly powerful performance all throughout but particularly exciting in the step sequence; the beginning (going into the first jump) was a little bit flat.
C: 8.50/ Good choreography. However, too much arm flailing that it makes me dizzy at times.
I: 8.25/ Good interpretation. However, the real interpretation only showed up towards the end of the program after landing all the jumps. Not much interpretation in the beginning.

PCS Total: 34.00

Total for GG: 37.86 + 34.00 = 71.86

4) Ashley Wagner

TES
3F+3T (+1.5): 10.65/ Clean combo but not the best executed one; flow on the 3T was not great
FSSp4 (+1.5): 3.95/ Good speed and arm positions; not perfect centering and not the most interesting positions
CcoSp3p4 (+1): 4.20/ Good but not the best positioning, speed, and centering
2A (+1.5): 4.38/ Good and right to the music; good transitions out; not the highest jump
3Lo (+1): 6.31/ Good landing but not the most difficult transitions going into it; a little cautious going in
StSq3 (+2): 4.30/ Not the most difficult steps but a lot of energy and power.
Lsp4 (+1): 3.20/ Pretty slow but stable positioning

TES Total: 36.99

PCS
SS: 7.75/ Decent skating skills but not the best in the field by far
T: 7.75/ Decent transitions in and out of elements but not the most difficult
P: 9.50/ Sells the program from start to finish; appears to be having fun; lots of energy
C: 8.50/ choreography matches the music nicely
I: 9.25/ excellent interpretation of the music; great energy and power to go along

PCS Total: 34.20

Total for AW: 36.99 + 34.20 = 71.19

5) Evgenia Medvedeva

TES
CcoSp3p4 (+2): 4.50/ Extremely well centered spins; lovely positions matching the music
StSq4 (+2): 5.30/ Steps match the music nicely; lovely arm movements; good edges
3F (-1): 5.13/ Not much transitions going into the jump as the jump was an intended combo; tano but shaky landing; interrupts the flow of the program up to this point
2A (+1): 4.13/ Tano but not a very high jump; not much speed going into the jump
3Lo+3T (+1.5): 11.39/ Nice recovery and nicely executed combination; not the most impressive though in terms of height and distance
FCSp4 (+2): 4.20/ Interesting positions; good speed and centering
Lsp4 (+2): 3.70/ Good positions and decent speed but not the fastest and not perfect centering

TES Total: 38.35

PCS
SS: 7.50/ Good edges and control but not quite the best yet; ice coverage quite limited and circular; not the fastest speed
T: 8.25/ Solid transitions in and out of all the elements
P: 8.25/ Good performance but there was a lapse due to the small mistake on the 3F
C: 8.25/ Lovely choreography but was a little repetitive
I: 8.50/ Good interpretation of the music all throughout; lovely arm movements and soft yet stable style.

PCS Total: 32.60

Total for 38.35 + 32.60 = 70.95

6) Satoko Miyahara

TES
3Lz+3T (+0.5): 10.65/ Landed cleanly but jump is very low and not too much coverage
Lsp4 (+2.5): 3.95/ Extremely nicely centered spin, great positions and speed
FCSp4 (+2): 4.20/ Solid speed, positioning, and centering
StSq4 (+1.5): 4.95/ Good clean steps and edges but could use more energy to make it more impactful
3F!< (-2): 2.67/ Not fully rotated, not completely inside edge, low jump
2A (0): 3.63/ Cleanly landed but not very high
CcoSp3p4 (+2): 4.50/ Great centering, positioning, and speed, and spins in both directions

TES Total: 34.55

PCS
SS: 8.50/ Great edges and control; good speed but could be a tad faster
T: 8.25/ Solid transitions in and out of elements
P: 8.25/ Great performance but should demonstrate even more passion and command
C: 8.25/ Lovely choreography
I: 8.00/ Good interpretation but could use more fire

PCS Total: 33.00

Total for SM: 34.55 + 33.00 = 67.55

7) Mao Asada

TES
3A< (-3): 2.90/ Huge step out and UR; disrupts flow of program
3F+2Lo (+1): 7.80/ Solid combination but not too impressive and not the most difficult by far
FCSp4 (+2): 4.20/ Good positioning, speed, and centering
3Lo (-1): 4.91/ Shaky landing
Lsp4 (+2): 3.70/ Solid positioning, centering, and speed; speed could be faster
StSq4 (+2.5): 5.65/ Exceptional step sequence with excellent edges
CcoSp3p4 (+2): 4.5/ Solid combination spin to end the program; solid speed, centering, and positioning

TES Total: 33.66

PCS
SS: 8.50/ Great edges and control; great ice coverage; not the fastest speed
T: 8.25/ Solid transitions all throughout the program
P: 8.00/ Good performance but not clean in the technical elements so performance was somewhat subdued
C: 8.50/ Great choreography although a tad bit immature
I: 8.25/ Good interpretation of the music but needs to be a little more flirty to be even better.

PCS Total: 33.20

Total for MA: 33.66 + 33.20 = 66.86

8) Elena Radionova

TES
3Lz+3T (+1): 11.00/ Lutz was somewhat landed in a scratchy way; execution (height + distance) is not the most impressive
FCSp4 (+1.5): 3.95/ Difficult positions and decent speed
CcoSp3p4 (+1.5): 4.25/ Not perfect centering but solid positions and speed
3F (-2): 4.43/ Bad landing; not much transitions/ steps into jump; not the best height
2A (0): 3.63/ Bad entry, jump is not high, not the most speed out of the landing
StSq4 (+1.5): 4.95/ Difficult steps and good edges but a little boring and repetitive
Lsp4(+2): 3.70/ Great positions, speed.

TES Total: 35.91

PCS
SS: 8.00/ Good edges and control; good speed
T: 7.50/ Not too many transitions in and out of elements
P: 7.75/ Good performance but not the most exciting; seemed a little repetitive
C: 7.75/ Good choreography but boring
I: 7.75/ Good interpretation, but too much arm flailing and overemoting made it a little repetitive and boring

PCS Total: 30.80

Total for ER: 35.91 + 30.80 = 66.71



It was really interesting to see how my scores added up! I didn't know that Rika would end up 2nd on my rankings although I did enjoy her performance a lot at the live event. What's also interesting is how Mao Asada is ahead in my rankings before Elena Radionova who was relatively clean. :eeking:

As for Anna, she was just really, really stunning live! I was completely surprised by how awesome she is (She's pretty awesome on a computer screen, but her performance live was :shocked. I guess that's really reflected in my personal scores.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

No, you don't. I know of no rules saying you can only give out a single 8.00.

You're right, but the judge also doesn't want to be bound to give a bunch of 8's if the skaters don't deserve that score. If Ashley skates with 5 solid skaters left and gets a 9.25, the judge does not have the option to give 5 different scores above that if he feels like it is warranted.

 

[4everchan]

curious to see what you would do with gabby and mirai please

So here are my SP Scores! I only did the top 7 ladies + Mao. My scores aren't super detailed like BoP because I'm currently busy, but here they are. I based these scores off my live experience at the arena as well as some slow-mo replays. I'll try to get the FS in some time this week too. More people should participate! It'll make it fun!

1) Anna Pogorilaya

TES
3Lz+3T (+2): 11.70/ Extremely high-quality combination; good speed into and out of the combo; high and long-distance
3Lo (+1.5): 6.15/ Not the most difficult transitions into the jump but nice high jump with flawless landing
FCSp4 (+1): 3.70/ Camel position is not fully extended; nice positions otherwise; spin not completely centered
2A (+1.5): 4.38/ Nicely landed double axel but the jump could be higher
CcoSp3p4 (+1): 4.00/Camel position does not look perfectly aligned; did not fully sit in the sit position; good speed; a little bit uncentered towards the end
StSq4 (+3): 6.00/ Extremely powerful and dramatic step sequence; perfectly matches the music; great facial expressions; edges are strong
Lsp4 (+1.5): 3.45/ Great speed but not completely centered and the Biellman is ugly.

TES Total: 39.38

PCS
SS: 8.50/ Strong edges and control; Great speed across the ice throughout the whole program
T: 8.00/ Not the most difficult transitions but well done and incorporated nicely into the program
Per: 9.50/ Very dramatic and powerful performance; performs from the very beginning to the end of the program; the step sequence captured my attention
C: 9.00/ Very interesting and nice choreography to go along with the dramatic music.
I: 9.25/ Nicely interpreted all throughout; step sequence matched the accents of the music very well; arm movements were powerful yet not overly flailing

PCS Total: 35.40

Total for AP: 39.38 + 35.40 = 74.78

2) Rika Hongo

TES
3F (+1.5): 6.88/ Good speed going into the jump; good height and distance
FCSp4 (+1): 3.70/ Not the best speed and positions but okay
Lsp4 (+1): 3.20/ Okay but not the best; kind of slow relative to others
3T+3T (+2): 10.86/ Great height and distance
2A (+1.5): 4.38/ Good flow out, good height
StSq4 (+2.5): 5.65/ Extremely powerful steps; great edges; matches the climax of the music well
CcoSp3p4 (+1.5): 4.25/ Solid spin but not the best in terms of speed, positioning, and centering

TES Total: 38.92

PCS
SS: 8.25/ Solid speed and great edgework
T: 8.00/ Solid transitions
P: 8.50/ Very powerful and impactful performance but needs to work on posture
C: 8.75/ Innovative choreography and impactful
I: 8.75/ Great interpretation; shows fire and power

PCS Total: 33.80

Total Score for RH: 38.92 + 33.80 = 72.72

3) Gracie Gold

TES
3Lz+3T (+1): 11.00/ The lutz was a little forward, but the combination was landed nicely.
Lsp3 (+2): 3.40/ Very fast, centered, good but not the very best positions
FCSp4 (+1.5): 3.95/ Very fast and centered but positions could be stretched out a little more
3F! (0): 5.83/ Okay jump but the edge was not a clear outside edge
2A (+1): 4.13/ Nice landing but not very high.
StSq4 (+2): 5.30/ Very fast, matches the accents of the music, too much arm flailing so not a +3
CcoSp3p4 (+1.5): 4.25/ Very fast and centered, but again not the prettiest positions

TES Total: 37.86

PCS
SS: 8.75/ Extremely solid edges and control; fast speed
T: 8.25/ Good number of transitions in and out of all the elements; well incorporated into the music, transitions can be more difficult
Per: 8.75/ Highly powerful performance all throughout but particularly exciting in the step sequence; the beginning (going into the first jump) was a little bit flat.
C: 8.50/ Good choreography. However, too much arm flailing that it makes me dizzy at times.
I: 8.25/ Good interpretation. However, the real interpretation only showed up towards the end of the program after landing all the jumps. Not much interpretation in the beginning.

PCS Total: 34.00

Total for GG: 37.86 + 34.00 = 71.86

4) Ashley Wagner

TES
3F+3T (+1.5): 10.65/ Clean combo but not the best executed one; flow on the 3T was not great
FSSp4 (+1.5): 3.95/ Good speed and arm positions; not perfect centering and not the most interesting positions
CcoSp3p4 (+1): 4.20/ Good but not the best positioning, speed, and centering
2A (+1.5): 4.38/ Good and right to the music; good transitions out; not the highest jump
3Lo (+1): 6.31/ Good landing but not the most difficult transitions going into it; a little cautious going in
StSq3 (+2): 4.30/ Not the most difficult steps but a lot of energy and power.
Lsp4 (+1): 3.20/ Pretty slow but stable positioning

TES Total: 36.99

PCS
SS: 7.75/ Decent skating skills but not the best in the field by far
T: 7.75/ Decent transitions in and out of elements but not the most difficult
P: 9.50/ Sells the program from start to finish; appears to be having fun; lots of energy
C: 8.50/ choreography matches the music nicely
I: 9.25/ excellent interpretation of the music; great energy and power to go along

PCS Total: 34.20

Total for AW: 36.99 + 34.20 = 71.19

5) Evgenia Medvedeva

TES
CcoSp3p4 (+2): 4.50/ Extremely well centered spins; lovely positions matching the music
StSq4 (+2): 5.30/ Steps match the music nicely; lovely arm movements; good edges
3F (-1): 5.13/ Not much transitions going into the jump as the jump was an intended combo; tano but shaky landing; interrupts the flow of the program up to this point
2A (+1): 4.13/ Tano but not a very high jump; not much speed going into the jump
3Lo+3T (+1.5): 11.39/ Nice recovery and nicely executed combination; not the most impressive though in terms of height and distance
FCSp4 (+2): 4.20/ Interesting positions; good speed and centering
Lsp4 (+2): 3.70/ Good positions and decent speed but not the fastest and not perfect centering

TES Total: 38.35

PCS
SS: 7.50/ Good edges and control but not quite the best yet; ice coverage quite limited and circular; not the fastest speed
T: 8.25/ Solid transitions in and out of all the elements
P: 8.25/ Good performance but there was a lapse due to the small mistake on the 3F
C: 8.25/ Lovely choreography but was a little repetitive
I: 8.50/ Good interpretation of the music all throughout; lovely arm movements and soft yet stable style.

PCS Total: 32.60

Total for 38.35 + 32.60 = 70.95

6) Satoko Miyahara

TES
3Lz+3T (+0.5): 10.65/ Landed cleanly but jump is very low and not too much coverage
Lsp4 (+2.5): 3.95/ Extremely nicely centered spin, great positions and speed
FCSp4 (+2): 4.20/ Solid speed, positioning, and centering
StSq4 (+1.5): 4.95/ Good clean steps and edges but could use more energy to make it more impactful
3F!< (-2): 2.67/ Not fully rotated, not completely inside edge, low jump
2A (0): 3.63/ Cleanly landed but not very high
CcoSp3p4 (+2): 4.50/ Great centering, positioning, and speed, and spins in both directions

TES Total: 34.55

PCS
SS: 8.50/ Great edges and control; good speed but could be a tad faster
T: 8.25/ Solid transitions in and out of elements
P: 8.25/ Great performance but should demonstrate even more passion and command
C: 8.25/ Lovely choreography
I: 8.00/ Good interpretation but could use more fire

PCS Total: 33.00

Total for SM: 34.55 + 33.00 = 67.55

7) Mao Asada

TES
3A< (-3): 2.90/ Huge step out and UR; disrupts flow of program
3F+2Lo (+1): 7.80/ Solid combination but not too impressive and not the most difficult by far
FCSp4 (+2): 4.20/ Good positioning, speed, and centering
3Lo (-1): 4.91/ Shaky landing
Lsp4 (+2): 3.70/ Solid positioning, centering, and speed; speed could be faster
StSq4 (+2.5): 5.65/ Exceptional step sequence with excellent edges
CcoSp3p4 (+2): 4.5/ Solid combination spin to end the program; solid speed, centering, and positioning

TES Total: 33.66

PCS
SS: 8.50/ Great edges and control; great ice coverage; not the fastest speed
T: 8.25/ Solid transitions all throughout the program
P: 8.00/ Good performance but not clean in the technical elements so performance was somewhat subdued
C: 8.50/ Great choreography although a tad bit immature
I: 8.25/ Good interpretation of the music but needs to be a little more flirty to be even better.

PCS Total: 33.20

Total for MA: 33.66 + 33.20 = 66.86

8) Elena Radionova

TES
3Lz+3T (+1): 11.00/ Lutz was somewhat landed in a scratchy way; execution (height + distance) is not the most impressive
FCSp4 (+1.5): 3.95/ Difficult positions and decent speed
CcoSp3p4 (+1.5): 4.25/ Not perfect centering but solid positions and speed
3F (-2): 4.43/ Bad landing; not much transitions/ steps into jump; not the best height
2A (0): 3.63/ Bad entry, jump is not high, not the most speed out of the landing
StSq4 (+1.5): 4.95/ Difficult steps and good edges but a little boring and repetitive
Lsp4(+2): 3.70/ Great positions, speed.

TES Total: 35.91

PCS
SS: 8.00/ Good edges and control; good speed
T: 7.50/ Not too many transitions in and out of elements
P: 7.75/ Good performance but not the most exciting; seemed a little repetitive
C: 7.75/ Good choreography but boring
I: 7.75/ Good interpretation, but too much arm flailing and overemoting made it a little repetitive and boring

PCS Total: 30.80

Total for ER: 35.91 + 30.80 = 66.71



It was really interesting to see how my scores added up! I didn't know that Rika would end up 2nd on my rankings although I did enjoy her performance a lot at the live event. What's also interesting is how Mao Asada is ahead in my rankings before Elena Radionova who was relatively clean. :eeking:

As for Anna, she was just really, really stunning live! I was completely surprised by how awesome she is (She's pretty awesome on a computer screen, but her performance live was :shocked. I guess that's really reflected in my personal scores.

 

[Blades of Passion]

I agree with practically everything!!! However, I don't think Hongo deserves to be ahead of Miyahara. Spins, General PCS goes to Miyahara. While Hongo does have better jumps, they aren't much better; they are very labored and don't really get that much height.

Thanks for your thoughts! I have to strongly disagree with this point, though. Rika has quite large jumps for the most part and her Flip in particular was the best of the competition. Her 3Toe in combination with the 3Flip is probably only underrotated because of the way she specifically jumps UP. Most of the ladies these days (especially the Russians) are adopting a kind of 3Toe technique where they sort of just spin it off the ice. That makes the rotation more consistently within 1/4 of a turn, but as the for the actual jump itself, it's less impressive.

Thank you BoP. Two questions for you (and everyone):

1. Do you not think Gracie deserved a < on the toeloop where she fell (not that it would've made much of a difference to the score, I know): https://youtu.be/IVOTAgMS_5I?t=6m1s

2. Does Anna have a good lutz technique? Sure her takeoff edge is a clean outside edge, but it barely seems to have any counter-rotation from what I could see?

Oh wow, thanks for bringing Gracie's toeloop to attention! I didn't look at it closely before and just assumed the call was correct. Yeah, that jump was definitely underrotated. Losing an extra 1.3 points for that underrotation doesn't change any placements at all but I will update the score sheets with it.

I think Anna's lutz technique is fine, it's just a different way of doing it. There's still some counter rotation because of being on back glide and needing to push that edge to the opposite direction of the jump while on the glide. It's a different body alignment and sequencing of the blade than turning into the jump and then taking off, as in a Flip.

I'm still not convinced that, in practice, a separate PCS panel would be immune from scoring abnormalities due to skate order or home advantage.

Regardless it would still be better than what we have now. As for "home advantage" one thing that can never be changed is the audience reaction. In at least some small way it will always have an impact, the roar of the crowd.

Given the way the judging works right now though, it's rather apparent that if Elena Radionova was the American Champion and Ashley Wagner was some skater from France who had never made the podium before, their placements at this competition probably would have swapped. The American crowd would have taken that ride on the Titanic and been blowing the rescue whistle for dear life, while the judges would have been frantically inflating those Program Component Scores like they were lifeboats. Same for Rika Hongo if she was an American Champ (Good Lord, they would have gone absolutely bonkers for Riverdance). Same for Pogorilaya and Miyahara.

Gracie Gold could have still been on the podium even, if Ashley wasn't American! They certainly gave her as many points as humanly possible for those performances and, as we just discovered, didn't even call her underrotated toeloop! Mao Asada is probably the only top 8 competitor who the judges wouldn't have given a medal, because she "blew it" in the Short Program.

 

[FSGMT]

The one thing about many scores that strikes me is Radionova's PCS: both the real marks and these marks I see here are enormously inflated! Watching that program (the FS I mean) live in Bratislava really made me wonder what do the judges find in that: her skating looks constantly laboured and doesn't flow over the ice at all, the viewer gets the impression that the only moments that do have some kind of real choreography are the step sequence and the stop in the middle of the program, and she is so so so so incredibly awkward in all her movements (just as in all her jumps). There is no way that I would give her more than 7 for SS are 6.75/7 for PE (a great part of which is EXECUTION) and CH...

 

[Blades of Passion]

Oh, I think Radionova has really good skating skills. When you see what she can do with just a couple strokes and the depth of edge she gets, it really outshines someone like Ashley in that regard. She usually has a lot of attack in her programs too, she projects confidence. It should be noted that her condition at Europeans wasn't as good, she was slower there and more mechanical. Yeah, her programs also weren't artistically very good these season and she needs to work more on her posture and reigning in some of her frantic movement, but I think she does still have good moments in the Long Program and was able to project some genuine emotion. I love the way she looks all the way up at the end of her first combination spin, for example. Maybe I did still overscore her a touch on choreography and interpretation, though.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

The one thing about many scores that strikes me is Radionova's PCS: both the real marks and these marks I see here are enormously inflated! Watching that program (the FS I mean) live in Bratislava really made me wonder what do the judges find in that: her skating looks constantly laboured and doesn't flow over the ice at all, the viewer gets the impression that the only moments that do have some kind of real choreography are the step sequence and the stop in the middle of the program, and she is so so so so incredibly awkward in all her movements (just as in all her jumps). There is no way that I would give her more than 7 for SS are 6.75/7 for PE (a great part of which is EXECUTION) and CH...

I saw Elena live at the GPF, and despite her mistakes there, I had a very different impression from you. She has some obvious weaknesses - her posture mainly - but she does a lot of things very well. Her edges are good, and her spiral isn't held long enough but the edge control/speed there was impressive to me. She has quite a lot of power and good speed overall, also maintaining her speed through different steps very well (the only lady faster than her was Gracie in the SP, Mao maintains her speed better). I especially disagree about PE, since Elena had tons of presence and charisma, and she attacks every single movement as if it was the highlight of the program. When I sat in the upper part of the venue for the SPs, I thought Elena had probably the best projection of the ladies there (Mao and Gracie were similar, but she was definitely better than Ashley, Evgenia and Satoko, IMO).
She needs more 'polish', so to speak, a bit more attention to the nuances in the music and calmer movements overall. I wouldn't have her PCS above Evgenia, Gracie or Mao for example, but I'd have her in the low 8's on both SS and PE.

 

[LeReveur]

I also am troubled by final placements separated by small margins when skate order can more than account for those differences. I'm not sure what a practical solution to this is. There are 9 judges and 3 tech panel members, so maybe some other allocation of that group you suggest would be preferable. I'm still not convinced that, in practice, a separate PCS panel would be immune from scoring abnormalities due to skate order or home advantage.

I'm not going to claim that I approve of this or disapprove of this, but here's a controversial "solution": have judges announce the final standings at the end. They can put scores in the computer after each skater but treat them as rough drafts/provisional scores until the final skater is done. Then, they can finalize their scores (perhaps after a few minutes of reviewing and thinking?). Scandalous, I know, but one way for skate order not to necessarily penalize or reward skaters .

 

[bartlebooth]

I saw Elena live at the GPF, and despite her mistakes there, I had a very different impression from you. She has some obvious weaknesses - her posture mainly - but she does a lot of things very well. Her edges are good, and her spiral isn't held long enough but the edge control/speed there was impressive to me. She has quite a lot of power and good speed overall, also maintaining her speed through different steps very well (the only lady faster than her was Gracie in the SP, Mao maintains her speed better). I especially disagree about PE, since Elena had tons of presence and charisma, and she attacks every single movement as if it was the highlight of the program. When I sat in the upper part of the venue for the SPs, I thought Elena had probably the best projection of the ladies there (Mao and Gracie were similar, but she was definitely better than Ashley, Evgenia and Satoko, IMO).
She needs more 'polish', so to speak, a bit more attention to the nuances in the music and calmer movements overall. I wouldn't have her PCS above Evgenia, Gracie or Mao for example, but I'd have her in the low 8's on both SS and PE.

I agree with you on the whole post, Li'Kitsu, and I appreciate the way you put it.
In other (less effective) words: Lena, stop doing a Keith-Moon-at-the drumming-kit impression, for Pete's sake!

 

[YesWay]

BoP, I like what you've done here... but generally speaking, if people are going to rescore stuff I'd like to see a lot more detail/justification than the brief comments you gave eg. which GoE bullet points you thought were met for each element, and referencing the criteria for each PCS component when making your comments.

This would lend far more credence to your scores, and be more educational... but of course would take a lot more time... so maybe focus on fewer skaters?

 

[andyjo24]

BoP, I like what you've done here... but generally speaking, if people are going to rescore stuff I'd like to see a lot more detail/justification than the brief comments you gave eg. which GoE bullet points you thought were met for each element, and referencing the criteria for each PCS component when making your comments.

This would lend far more credence to your scores, and be more educational... but of course would take a lot more time... so maybe focus on fewer skaters?

When I was doing my rescoring, I was thinking about the amount of time judges have in real-time to score the skaters. Judges only have a few minutes to do that. I'm pretty sure judges don't list out all the bullet points skaters have checked off and score accordingly. The judges probably just have a general sense of the quality of the elements and score from there. I mean, think about it, as soon as a skater performs an element, the judges immediately enter their GOEs for that element in like less than 2 seconds (as shown in the tech box). They don't list out every point and calculate how many bullets were checked off and then score GOE. By then, the skater probably already did 2 extra elements.

I think BoP used the same process as I did (Correct me if I'm wrong).

Yes, I know. It's very, very subjective. But since when has figure skating been an objective sport?

 

[andyjo24]

curious to see what you would do with gabby and mirai please

I'll definitely try to when I get the time.

 

[YesWay]

When I was doing my rescoring, I was thinking about the amount of time judges have in real-time to score the skaters. Judges only have a few minutes to do that. I'm pretty sure judges don't list out all the bullet points skaters have checked off and score accordingly. The judges probably just have a general sense of the quality of the elements and score from there. I mean, think about it, as soon as a skater performs an element, the judges immediately enter their GOEs for that element in like less than 2 seconds (as shown in the tech box). They don't list out every point and calculate how many bullets were checked off and then score GOE. By then, the skater probably already did 2 extra elements.

I think BoP used the same process as I did (Correct me if I'm wrong).

Yes, I know. It's very, very subjective. But since when has figure skating been an objective sport?

If someone can't justify their scoring according to the GoE bullet points and PCS criteria...
...then frankly their scores are just made-up nonsense.

Judges are supposed to be basing their scoring on those exact same bullet points and criteria. They ought to be able to do it in their heads, in the time available - because that's their job.

And if we don't think they did it right, then we have to go back to the GoE bullet points and PCS criteria when "re-scoring", to justify our claims. Without that, we have no credible case, we can't show where judges made mistakes or were inconsistent or over/under generous.

Take your time, do it properly. Or what's the point?
You are not a judge, so you don't have to do it all in 1/2 a second...