"Your" scoring of the 2016 Worlds' Ladies

[Blades of Passion]

Medvedeva doesn't jump small. She might skate a little small, but the flip toe combo she does isn't small.

She doesn't jump small (well, on the axel she does) but she's not exactly a "big" jumper either. The toeloop technique is flawed too and that simply can't be ignored. Her triple toe is 2.25 rotations in the air. It's right on the border of deserving an underrotation call, her normal "best" execution of that element. It's actually even not quite 2.25 rotations in the air if you look closely at her blade in slo-mo during the replay and want to be really picky (watch where the toepick leaves the ice) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf-ikEpLIYw&t=5m50s

 

[YesWay]

Not aiming this at any one person, but we often hear things like:
"I don't like the rules, as they are written.
So my scoring reflects what I think the rules should be."

I don't think there's anything wrong with that, I'd even say it's a worthy pursuit... as long as such "alternative" scoring schemes are not presented as "proof" of under/over scoring, judging mistakes, inconsistency, etc etc. Because they don't prove anything of the sort - we have to re-score using the actual existing rules, to do that.

 

[YesWay]

If you go to the communications and read the guidelines on awarding jump GOE it clearly states that the amount of bullets used to achieve positive GOE is merely a suggesting and the judges are allowed to use their description. In other words a judge can weight the bullets differently and it's perfectly within the rules.

Top of page 12
http://static.isu.org/media/207718/1944-sptc-sov-communication-2015-2016.pdf

It's nit picky I know - but that does not say the judges may assign different weights to different bullet points.

...Only that they have some discretion in how many bullet points should be met to award a particular GoE.

But of course, judges can use that discretion to achieve their desired weighting, if they want. eg. if a judge values jump height and distance above all else, they could award +2 for jumps that only meet 3 bullet points - whenever one of those bullet points is "good height and distance".

Not sure if it would be considered strictly "within the rules" if they do that, but as long as they keep their mouth shut, who's to know?!

 

[solani]

She doesn't jump small (well, on the axel she does) but she's not exactly a "big" jumper either. The toeloop technique is flawed too and that simply can't be ignored. Her triple toe is 2.25 rotations in the air. It's right on the border of deserving an underrotation call, her normal "best" execution of that element. It's actually even not quite 2.25 rotations in the air if you look closely at her blade in slo-mo during the replay and want to be really picky (watch where the toepick leaves the ice) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf-ikEpLIYw&t=5m50s

There aren't many skaters with a better toeloop technique imho, I think you're exceptionally picky. Yes, the take-off is forward, but many skaters do that. To me it's not exactly the point where the toepick leaves the ice, but the last moment where the skater puts pressure on the toepick, the rotation starts right afterwards, that's why it seems as if there is more pre-rotation than there really is, because the jump isn't very big.
I think that Evgenias jumps are rather big for her tiny frame (except the axel). I wonder how she will develop over the years, I'm not as sceptical as I was at the beginning of the season. With all that tano and rippon training she might just be able to keep her jumps.

 

[gkelly]

It's nit picky I know - but that does not say the judges may assign different weights to different bullet points.

...Only that they have some discretion in how many bullet points should be met to award a particular GoE.

That's more or less my understanding.

The guidelines suggest specific GOEs for 2, 4, or 6 bullet points but don't say what to do if there are 1, 3, or 5 points met. I take that to mean that if the element meets an odd number of bullet points, judges can use their discretion to decide whether to round up or down -- depending on how strongly the element meets each of those points and also on whether there were any technical weaknesses that wouldn't merit an actual reduction but would mean the element was starting on the low side of 0 before counting the bullets.

If there are significant errors to be reduced for after the positive bullet points, then it would be best to start by rounding down on the bullets.

Now, could/should a judge give +2 for an element with only two bullet points but for both of them the element was not just "good" but exceptionally good? What about

The original GOE guidelines from back ca. 2003-05 looked at each element in phases and recommended +1, +2, or +3 depending on how many phases were satisfactory, good, or very good or outstanding. I can't remember the exact wording, and it was a lot more confusing to follow than the current guidelines. But that did allow for taking into account degrees of goodness, not just an binary yes/no answer for each positive quality, so I think that sort of discretion would also still apply -- and would of course be subject to each judge's evaluation of how good the element is.


And I do think that, even if they don't do it consciously, different judges will tend to favor different bullet points. Maybe because they always remember to look for some qualities, or those qualities just jump out at them during the performance, whereas they have to consult the sheet to remember others. Some judges may be most impressed by athleticism (size and speed), others by technical control, others by artistry (attractive positions, musicality).

As long as each judge is consistent for all skaters in where they draw the line between adequate and good, I don't think it's necessary for all judges to come to the exact same conclusions on every element.

That's why we need a whole panel of judges, from which to draw consensus.

 

[Blades of Passion]

There aren't many skaters with a better toeloop technique imho, I think you're exceptionally picky.

There are many skaters with better toeloop technique and there's a reason why doing a Triple-Triple used to be considered a BIG deal for women and why the harder Triple-Triple combinations in particular were so rare.

Many competitors these days would not have nearly so consistent Triple-Triple jumps if they were forced to attempt them with ideal technique.

Yes, the take-off is forward, but many skaters do that.

Forward take-off is normal, 1/2 turn of pre-rotation, that's fine. But Medvedeva's swings around further than that, digging into the ice and spinning the jump more in order to make it easier. If you look at the point of where her first jump of the combination lands, the second jump is leaving way past "forward".

Some males have done this as well, very notably Jeff Buttle if you look at his toeloops. Also Johnny Weir, although he was very effortless about it. Among current male competitors, Daisuke Murakami does this.

The guidelines suggest specific GOEs for 2, 4, or 6 bullet points but don't say what to do if there are 1, 3, or 5 points met. I take that to mean that if the element meets an odd number of bullet points, judges can use their discretion to decide whether to round up or down

No...the 2, 4, and 6 bullet points are supposed to be the minimum for each of the +GOE grades.

 

[gkelly]

No...the 2, 4, and 6 bullet points are supposed to be the minimum for each of the +GOE grades.

In the real-world written document, which has been quoted several times already in this thread,

It is at the discretion of each Judge to decide on the number of bullets for any upgrade, but general recommendations are as follows:FOR + 1 : 2 bullets FOR + 2 : 4 bullets FOR + 3 : 6 or more bullets

http://usfigureskating.org/content/2015-16 SP GOE Guidelines.pdf

 

[Blades of Passion]

Yes, of course, everything is "at the discretion of the judge", but the guideline itself, which you have constantly been holding up, states that 2, 4, and 6 bullet points are supposed to be the minimums for each of the +GOE grades.

 

[gkelly]

Where do you see the word "minimum"?

 

[Blades of Passion]

I'm not sure what you are confused about. The guideline states that 2 bullet points should be achieved for +1 GOE, 4 bullet points for a +2 GOE, and 6 bullet points for a +3 GOE. Those are the minimums and this is what is taught to judges. If you have 1 bullet point it's still a 0 GOE. 3 bullet points is still a +1 GOE. 5 bullet points is still a +2 GOE.

But of course it's a guideline and it will need to be re-written if they introduce the new GOE range.

For comparison, this is how I feel GOE scoring of jumps should be carried out:

A jump should be "in the positive" by 2 points to receive a +.5 GOE grade. For each additional positive point, the GOE grade should be increased by an additional +.5, up to 6 points equaling +2.5 GOE. 8 points should be achieved for +3 GOE. Each of these following positive GOE points must be balanced against all negative GOE points:

1. Good height (amazing height counts double)
2. Good distance (amazing distance counts double)
3. Difficult entry (extremely difficult entry counts double)
4. Difficult air position / delay in rotation
5. Rotation completed entirely in the air
6. Excellent flow out of landing
7. Excellent extension on landing / difficult exit
8. Matched to the musical structure and good control throughout

Any jump element with a hand down on the ice must receive a final GOE of no better than -.5 and two hands down on the ice for a solo jump must receive a minimum of -2.0 final GOE. When these mistakes are made, a total loss of flow on the landing and/or a badly tilted upper body (how much of the skater's body weight is being propped up on the ice?) should also be taken into account for further -GOE penalty.

Judges must give a minimum of -2.5 GOE for a fall on a jump element (and this should only be given if the jump was excellent and the skater had momentary control of the landing before the fall), with two exceptions:

1.) If the fall was caused by running into the boards and the jump was strong and cleanly landed otherwise, then a deduction of only -2.0 may be sufficient.

2.) For jump combinations and sequences, where the second or third jump is only a double and another jump before it was much more difficult, falling on that double jump may merit only a -2.0 GOE deduction if the first part of the combination was superb and the double jump had momentary control of the landing before the fall.

 

[slider11]

Actually, I never said anything about Mirai's music. If you ask, yes parts of her music were pretty cheesy too and so poorly cut together.

Agreed! Hopefully, the attention Mirai received this season will earn her a better LP with different music and the potential for better expression. Her LP dress (without headband) was spectacular. The SP was magnificent and in my opinion skated very well at Worlds and deserving a higher ranking. I hope Tom Z gives Mirai 100 pieces of music to listen to, tells her come back in a month and tell him her top 3. Then get a good choreographer to work with her, pick one and put together something special!

 

[hurrah]

Oh, I didn't realize Evgenia prerotates her toe loop that much. I don't look at jumps so closely and I don't think this is something that is discussed so much.

Now I know why the judges aren't dinging Satoko for her prerotation, which is so prominently discussed on this board.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

There are many skaters with better toeloop technique and there's a reason why doing a Triple-Triple used to be considered a BIG deal for women and why the harder Triple-Triple combinations in particular were so rare.

Many competitors these days would not have nearly so consistent Triple-Triple jumps if they were forced to attempt them with ideal technique.

Women have never been expected to do a big 3/3, even when they were rare. Kristi and Tara had little height on their 3/3 but still got winning marks. Kristi even skated against Midori and usually got technical marks about a tenth lower even though Midori had much more difficulty and jumped much bigger.

 

[largeman]

Oh, I didn't realize Evgenia prerotates her toe loop that much. I don't look at jumps so closely and I don't think this is something that is discussed so much.

Now I know why the judges aren't dinging Satoko for her prerotation, which is so prominently discussed on this board.

I had not realized it either and I love looking at jumps closely. But yeah it is quite bad, and this clip of her 3S+3T at the nationals is telling. The 3T basically had 2 revolutions in the air. Really not much better than any of Satoko's worst 3Ts.

ETA: I wish Mao could learn to jump her 3T like this, and add 3F+3T back to her programs. Say goodbye to < on the 3-3 and 2A+3T. Just a thought.

 

[hurrah]

ETA: I wish Mao could learn to jump her 3T like this, and add 3F+3T back to her programs. Say goodbye to < on the 3-3 and 2A+3T. Just a thought.

Well, I'm sure if Mao ever adopted such an inferior technique, judges would immediately mark that as the worst sin in jumping technique.

 

[largeman]

Well, I'm sure if Mao ever adopted such an inferior technique, judges would immediately mark that as the worst sin in jumping technique.

You are so wise.

 

[solani]

There are many skaters with better toeloop technique and there's a reason why doing a Triple-Triple used to be considered a BIG deal for women and why the harder Triple-Triple combinations in particular were so rare.

Many competitors these days would not have nearly so consistent Triple-Triple jumps if they were forced to attempt them with ideal technique.



Forward take-off is normal, 1/2 turn of pre-rotation, that's fine. But Medvedeva's swings around further than that, digging into the ice and spinning the jump more in order to make it easier. If you look at the point of where her first jump of the combination lands, the second jump is leaving way past "forward".

Some males have done this as well, very notably Jeff Buttle if you look at his toeloops. Also Johnny Weir, although he was very effortless about it. Among current male competitors, Daisuke Murakami does this.

Shoma Uno is also doing it.

 

[solani]

I had not realized it either and I love looking at jumps closely. But yeah it is quite bad, and this clip of her 3S+3T at the nationals is telling. The 3T basically had 2 revolutions in the air. Really not much better than any of Satoko's worst 3Ts.

ETA: I wish Mao could learn to jump her 3T like this, and add 3F+3T back to her programs. Say goodbye to < on the 3-3 and 2A+3T. Just a thought.

Evgenia's 3T is much better than Satoko's in my opinion. Satoko prerotates at least a quarter of a rotation more than Evgenia.
But I think Mao would do well to learn to do a 3T like Evgenia, if that's possible for her. Because I think that this technique will be accepted until the next Olympics and very probably beyond that and it's exactly what Mao needs, because then she wouldn't have any problems with her jump layout in the short. 3A, 3F-3T and 3L would be hard to beat.

 

[sc8]

I honestly thought the scoring was fair and that this type of thread contributes to the narrative that something is "wrong" with skating. Judges work with the live performance, where speed, height and distance, interpretation and choreography have, in my humble opinion, way different effects on judging than any recorded version might produce or a hindsight interpretation and re-evaluation can offer. In particular, If we skating fans continue to underline, and in the process undermine, judging issues, we foster the narrative that skating is unfair. There werent scores that I saw where I thought, "that's not fair," as the judges were mostly within range of each other and no scores way outside the realm of acceptable. Scores were high because the top two flights really skated lights out, in my opinion. We all have different opinions as to whose technical score could have been higher/lower or whose PCS scores we'd alter if we were judges, but I thought the judging was fair and that the judges got it right. The judges go through hours of training, the large majority are skilled skaters or former skaters, must spend hours and hours judging regional, sectional and national events before they get a worlds assignment, so I'm thankful for their efforts and hate that their work is always questioned.

 

[ioanna]

Evgenia's 3T is much better than Satoko's in my opinion. Satoko prerotates at least a quarter of a rotation more than Evgenia.

In my opinion their prerotations look the same. It's more than 1/2 turn before she leaves the ice.
https://40.media.tumblr.com/3b5b455e40fe1ec17b896378b792069b/tumblr_o5dgp5zmKN1qfbp2ao1_1280.png