Yu/Jin & Peng/Zhang switch partners

[solar]

I read the original Chinese article and find the interpretation and "summary" given by that poster twisted and biased. I don't get the same impressions at all. I guess, as usual, people find convoluted ways to justify their beliefs and feelings.

I don't understand Chinese, so thanks for giving another opinion on the article I knew the summary was biased, but I just posted it anyways for better context on the situation.

 

[topaz emerald]

He deserves a suitable willing partner. A pairs team is a partnership; 2 people need to work together to produce results on ice and clearly based on Yu's activity on Chinese social media, she is opposed. The prospect of potential doesn't matter, no one should have their freedom of choice violated like this. Frankly, I'm surprised the Fed hasn't punished Yu for liking the posts on Weibo because for any Chinese user, we can easily find it.



This sums up my thoughts towards this situation. If she is not willing, then don't let the federation make the decision for her.

Then maybe they can just find a new partner for Peng and a new partner for Zhang instead of breaking up Yu and Jin. Because it seems Peng fails to land most of the jumps.

 

[solani]

Too right he would! :agree:

As David Goldstrom frequently says in commentary, he is super human!



Couldn't agree more with what you say.

I am a massive Nori Kasai fan as well. He is one of those guys that you can't help but like. Not just because he is the oldest guy out there, or because of what he is achieving at that age. But, he does seem to be a really likable person.

It is always difficult to know when to call it a day. And I will stay with ski jumping for this discussion. If you go back a few years, my 3 favourite jumpers who I was a big fan of and always cheered on were Noriaki Kasai, Adam Malysz and Simon Ammann.

Nori didn't retire when many said he should have. And he was right. He was going through a bad patch for the best part of a decade, but didn't give up. He came through it and re-established himself as one of the top jumpers in the world.

Adam retired too early. He had just got himself back up to being one of the best in the world, and then he called it a day at the end of the 2010 - 11 season so that he could concentrate on his other passion, rallying. And I was gutted. I have no doubt that if he had carried on, he would have won the season long World Cup the following season. And he would have been one of the favourites in Sochi.

Simon should have retired, but didn't. Simon had had a very successful career, winning almost all the main accolades in the sport. Some would say he should have called it a day after the Vancouver Olympics (when he won 2 gold medals), but he wanted to win the one major title he hadn't - the overall Four Hills title. So, I think he was right to carry on after Vancouver. But, he should have called time at the end of the 2013 - 14 season. The Sochi Olympics hadn't gone well, but he did finish higher in the overall World Cup than he had the previous 2 seasons. Admittedly, he hadn't won the Four Hills overall, but he had finished in 3rd that season after being way down the order the previous 2 seasons. But, he carried on, and ended up having 2 big crashes in the 2014 - 15 season, hurting himself badly in the second. And he hasn't been the same since. But, still he carries on.

Ammann is now in the same position as my favourite Men's skater, Plushenko. As a fan, I would love to see him to do a Kasai and come back against the odds. But, at the same time, I know his body won't let him. And I don't want him to hurt himself again. I want him to live happily ever after with his nice Russian wife. So, I would prefer to see him stop.

So, my 3 favourite ski jumpers all had to make the decision on whether to retire or not. Two of them arguably made the wrong decision. But the oldest of them, the one in the dodgiest position, was the one that called it right.

Zhang Hao isn't quite in the same position as the ski jumpers I have discussed. Although he hasn't reached the heights he did with Zhang Dan, he hasn't been doing too badly with Peng Cheng. So, I would like to see him carry on.

But, not at the expense of a couple that is clearly world class.

CaroLiza_fan

I agree with most of your post, but I think that Malyz made the right decision and probably Ammann as well.
I heard from a couple of sources that Malyz was in a lot of pain during his last seasons, he just never talked about it. Great athlete.
And Ammann still wants to win the Four Hills Tournament, he wants the be among the greatest. I wouldn't underestimate him. He's still working on his telemark technique (wants to land with the right foot in front now, it's his stronger leg and he landed with the right foot in front when he was young, only changed it after having problems with his right leg). Kasai also had a couple of weak seasons in between. So I wouldn't count Ammann out, he's sly.
So back to topic - I'd also want Zhang to carry on - but to me the question also is: Does he really want to? This whole partner switching is very likely not his idea, maybe he only wanted to stop skating, also because he wasn't very successful with Peng. All those years of skating, jumping, lifting and throwing his partners must have taken it's toll. I think that ski jumping is much easier on the body than figure skating.

 

[solani]

I would be happy for Peng that she would get away from him before he hurt her, but I will be terrified for Yu if she is forced into this.

It is cruel and inhumane to do this. Yu is so brave, knowing that the federation has absolute control over anything. Is there nothing we can do? Could she and Jin run away? I am sure plenty of fans would help with a GoFundMe or something, and it would probably sell well to corporate sponsors too. Can the ISU somehow get involved? Or the Court of Arbitration for Sport? Surely no Court would rule that the federation has the right to force a skater to do something they absolutely don't want to do.

But of course, China wouldn't care, would they? They're probably looking for Yu's family right now.

ISU Magazine Facebook account posted "Chinese Fed has split Yu and Jin..."

I don't like the sound of "has split"!

He deserves a suitable willing partner. A pairs team is a partnership; 2 people need to work together to produce results on ice and clearly based on Yu's activity on Chinese social media, she is opposed. The prospect of potential doesn't matter, no one should have their freedom of choice violated like this. Frankly, I'm surprised the Fed hasn't punished Yu for liking the posts on Weibo because for any Chinese user, we can easily find it.



This sums up my thoughts towards this situation. If she is not willing, then don't let the federation make the decision for her.

Do we know to what lengths the Chinese Fed is willing to go? Let's suppose Zhang says that he doesn't want to skate with an unwilling partner, that he much rather end his career. Yu was disobedient - would she even be allowed to continue to skate with Jin?
Would Jin really risk his career by refusing to skate with Peng?

 

[karne]

Do we know to what lengths the Chinese Fed is willing to go? Let's suppose Zhang says that he doesn't want to skate with an unwilling partner, that he much rather end his career. Yu was disobedient - would she even be allowed to continue to skate with Jin?
Would Jin really risk his career by refusing to skate with Peng?

Given the absolute control the Chinese government - whoops, sorry, federation - exerts over their people? I'm sure there are plenty of nasty things they are willing to do to get what they want. Especially if Zhang decided to quit and they decided to blame Yu for it, as they surely would.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

I am not sure, but I think you are right that the people using these incidents as evidence of Hao being a bad partner already have a negative mindset of him. They are looking at the incidents with whatever the opposite of rose-tinted glasses is.

No. Maybe that's true for a certain part of people - but I for example never followed pairs that much (it changed during this season). The only thing I knew about P/Z going into the GPF was a.) their 2015 worlds performances (where I thought they were okay, but not anything memorable for me) and b.) that he had another partner before, she retired and he got a new partner. I didn't know anything about any rumors, him, previous falls like at TEB or whatever. I had zero opinion on him. And my impression came completely from what I saw on the ice in Barcelona, with the other things just reinforcing this later. It's hard to explain what it is that irked me so much, and referring to the things that are on video makes way more sense anyway, IMO. But to me, he looked like he didn't try to support her - when she made mistakes, it looked like his grip got harsher, his body language was so dismissive when she made a mistake or even seemed insecure. Of course you can disagree on the matter, and I'm not going to try to convince you, but it surely isn't a pre-set hidden agenda against Hao Zhang that makes me feel so strongly about this. It's simply the fact that to me, it looks like there is rightful concern for her health.

And by the way, regarding that smirk at CoR - that stumble which apparently is a valid explanation for it IMO is mainly a good sign who messed up on that throw. No, it's really not just "Peng being incapable of landing the throws". That one was on him.
And no, I really don't think when he messes up and she has to take a hard fall because of it, that any form of "smirk", for whatever reason, speaks of a healthy dose of concern for his partner.

I read the original Chinese article and find the interpretation and "summary" given by that poster twisted and biased. I don't get the same impressions at all. I guess, as usual, people find convoluted ways to justify their beliefs and feelings.

And given that you are the poster who seems to think everything was perfectly fine with the judging at those test skates where Yu/Jin came 4th, you can just say that because you are obviously unbiased and can judge, in contrast to others?

 

[moriel]

I read the original Chinese article and find the interpretation and "summary" given by that poster twisted and biased. I don't get the same impressions at all. I guess, as usual, people find convoluted ways to justify their beliefs and feelings.

I wonder if you could offer a correct translation then, as it relates to the thread.

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I agree with most of your post, but I think that Malyz made the right decision and probably Ammann as well.
I heard from a couple of sources that Malyz was in a lot of pain during his last seasons, he just never talked about it. Great athlete.

Ah, I didn't realise that Adam was suffering in his last few seasons. Well, that changes things completely. He was right to call it a day.

Now that I have heard that, I can't get over how well he hid it. And it also makes me even more in awe of what he was achieving in those last couple of years.

And Ammann still wants to win the Four Hills Tournament, he wants the be among the greatest. I wouldn't underestimate him. He's still working on his telemark technique (wants to land with the right foot in front now, it's his stronger leg and he landed with the right foot in front when he was young, only changed it after having problems with his right leg). Kasai also had a couple of weak seasons in between. So I wouldn't count Ammann out, he's sly.

Don't get me wrong, I really want to see Simon come back to the top and win the Tournee. But, he is struggling so much with adjusting to this "new" way of landing (or should that be "old", since he originally landed this way). And if he does not get fully adjusted soon, the affects of age might start to play their part, and prevent him ever getting near achieving this last goal.

But, as you say, Nori went through a similar patch in his career, and then came into his own once he hit 40.

So back to topic - I'd also want Zhang to carry on - but to me the question also is: Does he really want to? This whole partner switching is very likely not his idea, maybe he only wanted to stop skating, also because he wasn't very successful with Peng. All those years of skating, jumping, lifting and throwing his partners must have taken it's toll.

You know, that is a scenario that nobody has actually talked about in this thread.

Everybody is focussing on how unfair it is that these changes are all being made just to benefit Zhang Hao, when his proposed new partner Yu Xiaoyu is dead against it.

But, we don't actually know what Zhang Hao's feelings are on the future. For all we know, he might have already reached the decision that he wants to retire, and that dangling a potential new partner in front of him is the Chinese Federation's desperate attempt to persuade him not to.

All we have to go on so far is Yu Xiaoyu "Liking" a page calling for it not to happen. We don't know what any of the other skaters feel. Yes, the Chinese Federation might try to force them. But if just one skater from each of the proposed new partnerships refuses to do it, then the whole thing is dead in the water.

Yes, they would end up seriously out of favour with the Federation, and they could be punished in such a way that their career is effectively over. But, if this happened, the Federation would find itself with an even bigger problem - finding couples that are good enough to not only fill the slots, but to retain the slots.

And that may not be easy.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

No. Maybe that's true for a certain part of people - but I for example never followed pairs that much (it changed during this season). The only thing I knew about P/Z going into the GPF was a.) their 2015 worlds performances (where I thought they were okay, but not anything memorable for me) and b.) that he had another partner before, she retired and he got a new partner. I didn't know anything about any rumors, him, previous falls like at TEB or whatever. I had zero opinion on him. And my impression came completely from what I saw on the ice in Barcelona, with the other things just reinforcing this later.

Fair enough. We are all welcome to form our own opinions on skaters and on what we like and what we don't.

But, what I think the use of these videos shows is that different people can interpret the exact same things in vastly different ways. And, at the end of the day, none of us know for sure what Zhang Hao was thinking. The only person that does know is Zhang Hao himself. And whatever it was he was thinking, he is unlikely to ever tell us! (Hey, the Chinese Federation probably wouldn't let him even if he wanted to).

What is kinda annoying me is that all this discussion about whether Zhang Hao is a good partner or not is distracting us from the main issue. That 2 of the top Pairs teams in China are being ordered to swap partners, and that not all of the skaters involved are in favour of it.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[yqs100]

Peng just posted a clip of Peng Zhang's exhibition program on Weibo.. It must be sad for this girl......

What a drama with the Chinese pairs

 

[TMC]

The IFS magazine may have just taken the fans' words for it, reporting what they say in Weibo.

They have, they admitted in a reply to a comment that it may all be a misunderstanding after all And they are always the first to berate anyone writing anything in the comments that could even remotely be construed as a rumour. I stopped following their account just for this reason. And subscribing to the magazine, but that was the result of just too many generally awful & annoying comments by their Facebook person

 

[Sunny Little]

Peng just posted a clip of Peng Zhang's exhibition program on Weibo.. It must be sad for this girl......

What a drama with the Chinese pairs

Can you link Peng's weibo? I can't seem to find it, being new to weibo and all. Thanks.

I seriously hope Yu/Jin can continue skating together.

 

[LRK]

Fair enough. We are all welcome to form our own opinions on skaters and on what we like and what we don't.

But, what I think the use of these videos shows is that different people can interpret the exact same things in vastly different ways. And, at the end of the day, none of us know for sure what Zhang Hao was thinking. The only person that does know is Zhang Hao himself. And whatever it was he was thinking, he is unlikely to ever tell us! (Hey, the Chinese Federation probably wouldn't let him even if he wanted to).

What is kinda annoying me is that all this discussion about whether Zhang Hao is a good partner or not is distracting us from the main issue. That 2 of the top Pairs teams in China are being ordered to swap partners, and that not all of the skaters involved are in favour of it.

CaroLiza_fan

I believe Li'Kitsu was talking about live impressions seen on site, not video.

@Li'Kitsu - Please correct me if you see this and I'm wrong!

Note: I have no opinion of Hao Zhang and his treatment of Cheng myself, as I can't say I've obseved anything. Merely in the interests of clarification. Obviously, even watching live people will have different impressions of what they see, but I believe there is a difference between video and live, as well.

 

[karne]

Certainly, my impressions come from the live observation in Boston. He threw her into the boards almost right in front of me and skated off without even seeming to care if she got up or not. And later in the program he looked really angry at her. That was my impression live, and it made me scared for Peng. She looked scared, too.

 

[LRK]

If you haven't seen it already, FSU user feraina posted a translation of a very interesting article published in 2012 regarding Yao Bin's attitude towards pair-switching and Hao Zhang in particular. I find it quite upsetting how the CSA treats their pairs teams and how much politicking behind the scenes there are. What allegedly happened with Dang Zhang seems to be happening once again, and it's unfair to both teams in general.

Here's a section of the post that summarizes the article translation, but I would really suggest reading the whole post. It's a shame that this partner switch might become a reality.

Thanks for sharing that. From part of the translation in that post.

"When asked about selecting Peng as Zhang's partner, Bin Yao revealed that the depth of Chinese pairs skating is not as optimistic as one might think. "At the time it was because there wasn't anyone else. Because internationally there are many pairs reformed from two strong individuals, like Germany and Russia got skaters from other countries for pairings. But there are too few skaters who can be a partner for Hao Zhang, since junior skaters who are already fairly established cannot be touched, Peng has at least singles skater's technical skills, and also has over a year of pairs training, so. Besides her there is no one else, so things are not like what we would want. So we are forced to do this. This is really a solution that is not ideal."

(emphasis mine) I would argue that Yu/Jin are "fairly established" and therefore should not be touched.

ETA - Just to remove a header which I have no clue where it came from! (I mean, literally no clue - I certainly didn't write it!)

 

[apple123]

Given the absolute control the Chinese government - whoops, sorry, federation - exerts over their people? I'm sure there are plenty of nasty things they are willing to do to get what they want. Especially if Zhang decided to quit and they decided to blame Yu for it, as they surely would.

I wonder your sudden keen interests in Chinese skaters are from love or hate or some other angle? Because for sure you keep saying a lot of bad things about them and their country.

 

[matcha]

Well, if this is true, the Chinese Fed should be grateful that Yu doesn't seem like a person to cut off their nose to spite their face because I would just be like "byyyeee!! I can't skate with Jin? Not skating with Zhang either. Good luck!!"

 

[solani]

Well, if this is true, the Chinese Fed should be grateful that Yu doesn't seem like a person to cut off their nose to spite their face because I would just be like "byyyeee!! I can't skate with Jin? Not skating with Zhang either. Good luck!!"

And good bye to a possible better life? I hope that Yu will do what's best for her present and her future. She alone cannot change the system she lives in, but she has to live in it. Not all of us are built to me martyrs. I admire them, but I can well understand people taking the easy way. Not saying that anything will be easy for her.

 

[snowday]

Well, if this is true, the Chinese Fed should be grateful that Yu doesn't seem like a person to cut off their nose to spite their face because I would just be like "byyyeee!! I can't skate with Jin? Not skating with Zhang either. Good luck!!"

She can't write anything other than "thank you my fans for your support" on her social media and occasionally "Liked" a few posts these days. Any more acting out, her career is dead. So it's not just good temperament--it's survival...

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

I believe Li'Kitsu was talking about live impressions seen on site, not video.

@Li'Kitsu - Please correct me if you see this and I'm wrong!

I think the problem here was where I cut the quote.

At the start of the comment, Li'Kitsu was indeed talking about the opinions she formed of Peng / Zhang when she saw them live at the GP Final. And then she went on to explain that the videos reinforced the opinion she had formed.

I cut the quote after Li'Kitsu said:

And my impression came completely from what I saw on the ice in Barcelona, with the other things just reinforcing this later.

With hindsight, I probably should have kept in the next sentence as well, as it is the one that first mentioned the word "video":

It's hard to explain what it is that irked me so much, and referring to the things that are on video makes way more sense anyway, IMO.

But that was leading into part of the conversation which was not relevant to what I was saying in my comment. And I felt leaving this sentence in would be distracting.

So, sorry that my editing has led to this confusion.

CaroLiza_fan