- Joined
- Apr 12, 2014
I'd rather the guys get a violation for being too sexy versus their costumes being too feminine. I'm over guys in gloves, sheer tops, and outfits with more bling than the ladies.
2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating
- Thread starter Mrs. P
- Start date
I'd rather the guys get a violation for being too sexy versus their costumes being too feminine. I'm over guys in gloves, sheer tops, and outfits with more bling than the ladies.
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2014
Sigh. Inanimate objects should not be gendered. And why not let people wear what they want? Some are plainer than others. Let them express themselves in the way they want and not be constrained by people's prejudices. Also, guys can dress in a traditionally regarded as feminine way and be damn sexy, thank you very much.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
So, just to clarify: for the deduction to actually be applied, you have to get a majority of judges press the button. Only two did here, so no actual violation.
Max proved last night that he can never be written off or discarded. Had a bad SP? Beware, the Lion King is waiting and he will use those claws. Underestimate him at your peril.
Max proved last night that he can never be written off or discarded. Had a bad SP? Beware, the Lion King is waiting and he will use those claws. Underestimate him at your peril.
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2014
I agree they should be allowed to dress as they'd like, but I think it's becoming a bit too much for me. I'm an oldie... I'm also a gay man, so don't be quick to throw the "prejudice" constraint out.
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2014
Prejudice not homophobia is what I said. In this case, the prejudice against certain clothing choices.
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- Joined
- Apr 12, 2014
I'd say it's a preference, I don't hate on them for it. But, okay
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2014
Sorry if I used a too strong word.
Btw, Artur Dmitriev, in his 1992 FS with Mishkutenok that I just watched again, sure looked like he was wearing tights. Did they not have the rule then or did everyone just not care due to the sublime beauty of their skate?
Btw, Artur Dmitriev, in his 1992 FS with Mishkutenok that I just watched again, sure looked like he was wearing tights. Did they not have the rule then or did everyone just not care due to the sublime beauty of their skate?
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2014
Sorry if I used a too strong word.
Btw, Artur Dmitriev, in his 1992 FS with Mishkutenok that I just watched again, sure looked like he was wearing tights. Did they not have the rule then or did everyone just not care due to the sublime beauty of their skate?
No problem. I think the beauty of their performance and his outfit were equally mesmerizing lol
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2014
Omg i love the way you phrased it: you are being too sexy.
But yeah it does seem like the too sexy police have been emerging this season
I wonder if those two judges liked that better?I, on the other hand, hate the "work clothes" look on the ice that has, in my opinion, become the more prevalent look with male skaters lately. I prefer male skaters in meaningful costumes that help them (and preferably the audience too) get in the mood of the music an choreography. I love bling on men and totally agree with TheGrandSophy that men can look very sexy in costumes that are traditionally regarded "effeminate." More varietyequals more fun, imo.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
Umm.
Anyone have any actual news or thoughts about US men - say, Max's performance at Rostelecom or what he needs to do to move forward in China? What about chang s to Lion King? Or maybe some thoughts about how Adam and Nathan will fare at the upcoming Trophee de France? Or about Nathan training with Marina? Or about anything except...tights?
Anyone have any actual news or thoughts about US men - say, Max's performance at Rostelecom or what he needs to do to move forward in China? What about chang s to Lion King? Or maybe some thoughts about how Adam and Nathan will fare at the upcoming Trophee de France? Or about Nathan training with Marina? Or about anything except...tights?
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2014
I call it the bowling team shirt look. :roll5: A few sparklies wouldn't hurt!
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2014
As I was watching Max this weekend, I couldn't help but feel a little sad, because I just think he has gone as far as he is going to go with Tom Z. And it isn't just the "he had a bad skate, time to switch coaches" thing. As a matter of fact, he pulled himself up quite a bit with his FS. I just feel that he needs someone to work with him on his spins and the (dreaded) artistic impression. I think Tom is a great motivator, but there are other things Max just isn't going to get from Tom. I know he's worked with Philip Mills, but -- wish I had the solution?! :sad4: I just feel like he's capable of so much more.
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2012
I am very curious about how Adam vs Nathan at TEB will shake out! If Adam beats Nathan that could give him momentum heading into Nationals. But Nathan will be doing multiple quads, and could play spoiler this weekend. Hmm.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2013
*slaps hands away* Oi! No ruining the Lion King!
Still is.
Geez, he had a bad day on the SP day. Like no-one's ever had one those. It was quite obvious that he castigated himself for it more than anyone else ever could so is there really need to castigate him more for it? His expression in the kiss and cry not heartbreaking enough for you? You want actual tears next time?
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2014
I realize he still works with Philip Mills. I think he needs to be packaged differently. Again, I think he's gone as far as he can with Tom Z., and Tom has done a lot for him. Crying won't do any good.
So one thing that, on paper, doesn't make sense is why Max Aaron doesn't get as much TES relative to the top 2 US men at the moment despite landing 2 quads (and Jason landing an under-rotated one and Adam falling on a fully rotated one) in their respective free skates.
TL;DR: : Max needs to back load his program more, get the levels on his non-jump elements and get more +GOE especially on his quads.
For those of you who want the analysis, read on:
Here's the TES for Max, Jason Brown and Adam Rippon (from Rostelecom for Max and Skate America for Jason and Adam):
Jason: 92.61
Adam: 89.25
Max: 85.18.
Let's look at BV:
Jason 81.14
Adam: 81.75
Max: 80.10.
Now consider the fact that Max, on paper, already is at a point disadvantage just on BV alone. How come? Let's look at a few things:
1.) Jumps. Here's the highest three jump passes in BV and their point value:
Max: 4S-2T, 4S and his 3Z-1L-3S. Total BV: 34.29
Jason: 3A-2T, 3F-3T and 3Z-1L-3S BV: 32.35
Adam: 4T, 3A-2T, 3Z-2T-2Lo BV: 31.09
We'll note GOE in a later segment.
2.) Spin/step levels. At Rostelecom Cup, Max did not get a single level 4 element. His BV for spins and steps was 13.2 Adam Rippon had 2 level 3 and 2 level 4 elements (BV: 14.8) Jason only had one level 3 spin -- he got level 4 on everything else, including the Stsq, which is key because not only BV, but its eligible for more GOE (again more on that later). Base value: 15.6.
3.) Backloading. Jasonis doing doing a 2-6 layout , Adam is doing a 3-5 and Max is doing a 4-4. Not only that Max is opting to put two of his big money combinations in the front, which Jason has two of his big money combos in the second half. Adam also put both his 3As in the second half which also helps his BV.
So let's look at front loading BV.
Max: 37.2
Adam: 24.3
Jason: 17.8
Back loading BV (10 percent bonus in BV)
Jason: 47.74
Adam: 42.35
Max: 29.7
4.) Max doesn't do a flip. Now it's a whole discussion, whether it's worth his while whether to include a flip or not. However, it does limit the options for his jumping passes. With 1 quad and 5 triples = 2 quads and 6 triples. Jason and Adam are doing 1 quad and 6 triples = 1 quad and 8 triples.
Max could do two 2As with a 3-3 and 3Z-1L-3S combo. He decides instead to do a 2A, a 3T and the 3Z-1L-3S combo. And for BV you can see why--obviously a 3T (4.3) is worth more than a second 2A (3.3) . However, I do wonder if he actually intends to do a 4T-3T in the beginning -- any advantage a 3T vs. 2A is nearly eroaded because you get +GOE on the table (+3.00 vs. 2.1 for doing a good 3T later on). Maybe he plans 4S-3T and 2A but puts in the 3T when he pops the second jump.
5.) Level calling. There's an argument that Adam should have a UR in his quad. Jason would have had an even greater gap between him and the other two had they ratified his quad, not to mention the odd (!) call on his 3F (he's a known former flutzer, and the flip is usually his money jump). In any case, Adam benefits from the generous call for his call and basically Jason's odd calls.
Total jump BV:
Max: 66.90
Adam: 66.65
Jason: 65.54
Grade of Execution:
Overall GOE
Jason: 11.47
Adam: 7.5
Max: 5.08
GOE on jumps
Jason: 4.57
Max: 3.22
Adam: 2.22
GOE on steps/spins
Jason: 6.9
Adam: 5.28
Max: 1.86
Highest three scored elements (with +GOE)
Jason: 3Z-1L-3S (13.19; 1.2 GOE) 3A-2T (11.37, 1.57 GOE) and 3F-3T (10.46 -.1 GOE)
Adam: 3A-2T (12.21 (1.43 GOE), 3A (10.64, 1.29 GOE) and 3F-3T (10.50, .9 GOE)
Max: 3Z-1L-3S (12.99; 1.0 GOE), 4S-2T (11.94, .14 GOE) and 3A (11.21, 1.86 GOE)
Conclusions
1. Basically any advantage Max had doing two quads is eroded due 1.) not doing a flip 2.) not backloading his programs and 3.) not getting levels on step and spins (the same goes for Adam relative to Jason)
2.) Not getting high GOE on his jumps. Max's 3A is outstanding, the best out of the three US men. But outside of that the only element he gets a full point in GOE is his 3Z-1L-3S. On the other extreme. Jason got 1.5+ on four out of 13 elements and 1.0+ on four more elements, so 1.0 or higher on eight out 13 elements total. Adam got 1.5 or more points on 2 elements and 1.0 or more on 4 elements, so 1.0 or higher on six out of 13 elements.
3). Judging panel -- This isn't a perfect comparison because Adam and Jason were under one judging panel and Max was under another. Also home advantage and audience response can influence things, usually subconsciously. So let's put that out there.
TL;DR: : Max needs to back load his program more, get the levels on his non-jump elements and get more +GOE especially on his quads.
For those of you who want the analysis, read on:
Here's the TES for Max, Jason Brown and Adam Rippon (from Rostelecom for Max and Skate America for Jason and Adam):
Jason: 92.61
Adam: 89.25
Max: 85.18.
Let's look at BV:
Jason 81.14
Adam: 81.75
Max: 80.10.
Now consider the fact that Max, on paper, already is at a point disadvantage just on BV alone. How come? Let's look at a few things:
1.) Jumps. Here's the highest three jump passes in BV and their point value:
Max: 4S-2T, 4S and his 3Z-1L-3S. Total BV: 34.29
Jason: 3A-2T, 3F-3T and 3Z-1L-3S BV: 32.35
Adam: 4T, 3A-2T, 3Z-2T-2Lo BV: 31.09
We'll note GOE in a later segment.
2.) Spin/step levels. At Rostelecom Cup, Max did not get a single level 4 element. His BV for spins and steps was 13.2 Adam Rippon had 2 level 3 and 2 level 4 elements (BV: 14.8) Jason only had one level 3 spin -- he got level 4 on everything else, including the Stsq, which is key because not only BV, but its eligible for more GOE (again more on that later). Base value: 15.6.
3.) Backloading. Jasonis doing doing a 2-6 layout , Adam is doing a 3-5 and Max is doing a 4-4. Not only that Max is opting to put two of his big money combinations in the front, which Jason has two of his big money combos in the second half. Adam also put both his 3As in the second half which also helps his BV.
So let's look at front loading BV.
Max: 37.2
Adam: 24.3
Jason: 17.8
Back loading BV (10 percent bonus in BV)
Jason: 47.74
Adam: 42.35
Max: 29.7
4.) Max doesn't do a flip. Now it's a whole discussion, whether it's worth his while whether to include a flip or not. However, it does limit the options for his jumping passes. With 1 quad and 5 triples = 2 quads and 6 triples. Jason and Adam are doing 1 quad and 6 triples = 1 quad and 8 triples.
Max could do two 2As with a 3-3 and 3Z-1L-3S combo. He decides instead to do a 2A, a 3T and the 3Z-1L-3S combo. And for BV you can see why--obviously a 3T (4.3) is worth more than a second 2A (3.3) . However, I do wonder if he actually intends to do a 4T-3T in the beginning -- any advantage a 3T vs. 2A is nearly eroaded because you get +GOE on the table (+3.00 vs. 2.1 for doing a good 3T later on). Maybe he plans 4S-3T and 2A but puts in the 3T when he pops the second jump.
5.) Level calling. There's an argument that Adam should have a UR in his quad. Jason would have had an even greater gap between him and the other two had they ratified his quad, not to mention the odd (!) call on his 3F (he's a known former flutzer, and the flip is usually his money jump). In any case, Adam benefits from the generous call for his call and basically Jason's odd calls.
Total jump BV:
Max: 66.90
Adam: 66.65
Jason: 65.54
Grade of Execution:
Overall GOE
Jason: 11.47
Adam: 7.5
Max: 5.08
GOE on jumps
Jason: 4.57
Max: 3.22
Adam: 2.22
GOE on steps/spins
Jason: 6.9
Adam: 5.28
Max: 1.86
Highest three scored elements (with +GOE)
Jason: 3Z-1L-3S (13.19; 1.2 GOE) 3A-2T (11.37, 1.57 GOE) and 3F-3T (10.46 -.1 GOE)
Adam: 3A-2T (12.21 (1.43 GOE), 3A (10.64, 1.29 GOE) and 3F-3T (10.50, .9 GOE)
Max: 3Z-1L-3S (12.99; 1.0 GOE), 4S-2T (11.94, .14 GOE) and 3A (11.21, 1.86 GOE)
Conclusions
1. Basically any advantage Max had doing two quads is eroded due 1.) not doing a flip 2.) not backloading his programs and 3.) not getting levels on step and spins (the same goes for Adam relative to Jason)
2.) Not getting high GOE on his jumps. Max's 3A is outstanding, the best out of the three US men. But outside of that the only element he gets a full point in GOE is his 3Z-1L-3S. On the other extreme. Jason got 1.5+ on four out of 13 elements and 1.0+ on four more elements, so 1.0 or higher on eight out 13 elements total. Adam got 1.5 or more points on 2 elements and 1.0 or more on 4 elements, so 1.0 or higher on six out of 13 elements.
3). Judging panel -- This isn't a perfect comparison because Adam and Jason were under one judging panel and Max was under another. Also home advantage and audience response can influence things, usually subconsciously. So let's put that out there.
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- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
I agree with this comment. I love Javi but, his FP Costume looks like the stuff that my Dads bowling team used to wear. Maybe he should call Yags. He always had Masculine Costuming but, he never looked like he was on a bowling team. Please note, Yags does have rhinestones all over his upper body. However, they are wisely the same color at the fabric beneath them. Which just makes him shimmer without looking gaudy. I hope that made sense.
http://www.webwinds.com/icechips2002/alexei95125.jpg
P.S. Can we all take a look at the reason more Men should wear Gloves. Look at the line of his arms......It's Gorgeous. I'm talking to you Max Arron. Your SP Costume could benefit from a pair of gloves that match the color of your cuff. Which, I think is white. It sounds weird but, trust me, I'm right about this.
You can see them in his SP from 2002 Olympics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UlVeNEBFKE
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- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
Sorry, I didn't mean he needs to change it - I thought he did change it or the cuts of music or something - am I wrong? Anyway, I like that he smiled in the footwork!
Also, ermm, I noticed your comment elsewhere that he needs a new ex. Honestly, every time I see him perform this program I always wonder why they don't do something similar for a competitive program - because he enjoys it so much and it suits him so well. He seems totally natural and moves really well.
For those of you who haven't seen it, this is Max's ex from Skate America last year. The announcers talk way too much. What do you guys think?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ktaOtloxVtI
