2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[Nathan13]

Nathan!!!

First to land a clean 4lz and 4f in a short program! And he just broke the record highest score set by an american man in the short! Super proud! Seems just like yesterday he was cute little novice in the Us exhibition.

And he did it all without a triple axel

 

[frida80]

And he did it all without a triple axel

:agree2:

That's the best part! Add in a 3A and he'll probably break 100! And this is his first international senior season! He's improved so much since last year! He's more artistic and balletic, pushing up that PCS mark. My hope is that he can join the 300 club soon.

Please don't get injured again, Nathan! :hopelessness: I don't think I could take another scare like last season! Having him come back so strong is the beyond what I ever could expect!

 

[karne]

Please don't get injured again, Nathan! :hopelessness: I don't think I could take another scare like last season! Having him come back so strong is the beyond what I ever could expect!

...and is probably more likely to contribute to another injury, perhaps this one more serious.

I am sorry if I sound pessimistic, but seeing him going after quad lutzes and flips and so on makes me want to slap many people upside the head. He had major surgery eight months ago (nine now I guess) and instead of easing him back in, taking things gently to prolong his career, it's all just rush rush rush. Well, I hope the important people in his life will consider it worth it when he's getting hip replacements in his early twenties. I wouldn't even bank on him making the Olympics, let alone seeing out this season. It is utterly infuriating.

 

[Jaana]

...and is probably more likely to contribute to another injury, perhaps this one more serious.

I am sorry if I sound pessimistic, but seeing him going after quad lutzes and flips and so on makes me want to slap many people upside the head. He had major surgery eight months ago (nine now I guess) and instead of easing him back in, taking things gently to prolong his career, it's all just rush rush rush. Well, I hope the important people in his life will consider it worth it when he's getting hip replacements in his early twenties. I wouldn't even bank on him making the Olympics, let alone seeing out this season. It is utterly infuriating.

My guess is that the rush is because of the 2018 Olympics. He needs to make a break-through this season to be able to get notable results in 2017-2018 season.

 

[champs]

I think so too. If my memory serves me correctly I read somewhere that he wanted to attend Harvard or some prestigious school after deferring entrance for a year to concentrate on his skating to be able to go the the Olympics. If that was really his plan he probably knows he can't extend his competitive career past the 2017-2018 season in as committed a way as he is now.

 

[Tallorder]

Pacing will be extremely important IMO. I sense one of the under appreciated benefits of his move to Zoueva and Canton is the opportunity to be "mentored" in ways that I had heard was not exactly happening previously. Patrick, Maia and Alex are all experienced competitors and athletes, and from social media at least, it seems they are very much taking him under their wing. One can also sense from the K&C interactions that he is very happy and comfortable with Marina. They are adorable together in the K&C.

If he can stay healthy, he will be a major force, eligible to be in the conversation for almost any podium (including Worlds - cite: Boyang in 2016) he is competing for.

 

[karne]

My guess is that the rush is because of the 2018 Olympics. He needs to make a break-through this season to be able to get notable results in 2017-2018 season.

But if he's not careful, he won't even make 2018. Did you see how hard he fell on his hip this morning? This is a disaster just waiting to happen.

I think so too. If my memory serves me correctly I read somewhere that he wanted to attend Harvard or some prestigious school after deferring entrance for a year to concentrate on his skating to be able to go the the Olympics. If that was really his plan he probably knows he can't extend his competitive career past the 2017-2018 season in as committed a way as he is now.

Why should that preclude him continuing to skate? There are several skaters still competing while studying full time. One of them is the only US man to be currently performing CLEAN multi-quad long programs. And he wants to go to Harvard too (and hearsay is that his grades are good enough to get him there).

 

[Tavi...]

So this article has some nice quotes from Adam and Nathan. And I was right about one thing: Nathan said the first two quads really tired him out.

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2016/11/12/208723532

 

[andromache]

Why should that preclude him continuing to skate? There are several skaters still competing while studying full time. One of them is the only US man to be currently performing CLEAN multi-quad long programs. And he wants to go to Harvard too (and hearsay is that his grades are good enough to get him there).

Not everyone wants to go to school full time while also skating full time. It's quite a commitment, especially at the prestigious schools. I assume that might be one reason why Max isn't at Harvard now?

Have any recent Worlds/Olympics medalists also been full-time students? I can't think of any off the top of my head in singles. Maybe the Shibs? But I don't know if they are full or part time.

 

[karne]

Not everyone wants to go to school full time while also skating full time. It's quite a commitment, especially at the prestigious schools. I assume that might be one reason why Max isn't at Harvard now?

Isn't the whole thing with the whacked-out US secondary system that you have to have a degree in something else first before you go to the big schools? I understand Max is getting his finance degree with a view to studying business at Harvard.

 

[andromache]

Isn't the whole thing with the whacked-out US secondary system that you have to have a degree in something else first before you go to the big schools? I understand Max is getting his finance degree with a view to studying business at Harvard.

No, what is most common is to get your two-year or four-year degree in whatever you want at one school, and stop there.

People who further their education for med school or getting an MA or MBA or whatever either go to the same institution where they got their first degree or a different one, which may or may not be a more prestigious school. In my experience, it's fairly rare to get your first degree at a mid-tier school and then get your later degree at a very prestigious school, as those prestigious schools are far more likely to accept you only if you went to a prestigious school for your first degree.

But the vast majority of Harvard undergraduates (i.e., getting a four-year bachelor's degree) have ONLY gone to Harvard.

I haven't read about Max's goals personally, but it sounds like he wants to get his four-year bachelor's degree in finance where he's at now and then go to Harvard for his Master's in business (MBA). OTOH, it seems like Nathan wants to get his four-year degree at Harvard.

 

[el henry]

Isn't the whole thing with the whacked-out US secondary system that you have to have a degree in something else first before you go to the big schools? I understand Max is getting his finance degree with a view to studying business at Harvard.

I don't know what Snugglebat wants to do exactly, but if he is taking college level classes now, it may be that he wants to go Harvard Business School, which would be a graduate degree? I'm sure he would slay,:yes:

And Nathan is certainly a young man in a hurry, which I agree is not to his benefit, either in skating or schooling.hwell:

ETA: typing at the same time leads to two answers on the same subject. At least the answers are in agreement

 

[karne]

I haven't read about Max's goals personally, but it sounds like he wants to get his four-year bachelor's degree in finance where he's at now and then go to Harvard for his Master's in business (MBA). OTOH, it seems like Nathan wants to get his four-year degree at Harvard.

Yes, that sounds right. IIRC, I think I read somewhere that Max should finish his degree this season - my guess is that he would defer any acceptance to Harvard for the Olympic year, and then perhaps, because he is a special brand of crazy, he might even try to compete while working on his Masters.

I don't know what Snugglebat wants to do exactly, but if he is taking college level classes now, it may be that he wants to go Harvard Business School, which would be a graduate degree? I'm sure he would slay,:yes:

He wants to be a RichBat. Or a VeryRichBat. I remember reading about him saying where he wants to end up working and it was one of the really top huge companies like Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan or something. Also he wants to do iron mans. And maybe some bodybuilding. And he wants to get into real estate as well. And...

AmbitiousBat.

 

[Tavi...]

So okay folks. We've now seen all the US guys at least once this season! What do you think?

Adam: Adam looked very strong today - stronger, I thought, than at Skate America (although it's a bit hard to compare since I saw SA live). He and Jason were already running neck and neck, but I think with this performance it's even closer. Maybe Adam has even passed Jason? He's got a ratified 4T now and Jason doesn't. His TES is a little higher, but Jason still seems to have a slight PCS advantage. What do you think?

Nathan: Nathan really does have a lot of potential, but to my mind he's not doing himself any favors by trying to out quad everyone at this point. He did five quads in the FS but his TES was virtually the same as Adam's - and Adam outscored him by 10 points (3 points overall due to his SP lead). I know what I think Nathan should do right now - fewer quads in his FS - but will he? I'm sure he wants to get to the GPF, and to do that he'll probably need a silver or gold at NHK. Do you think he'll change his strategy to get there, and if so how? Do you think he can beat Jason? Hanyu? Kolyada? What should his strategy be? After today, do you still think he's an absolute shoe in to win gold at Nats and make the World and Olympic Teams?

Max: After a rocky short, Max made a nice recovery last week in his FS. He's a long shot for the GPF, but if he does well in China, it could set him up for a strong showing at Nats / making the World Team. Does anyone know where he's been training this week? What would you like to see him focus on at COC? I think he has a shot at a medal, but he'll probably have to fight Brezina and Voronov -and maybe Kovtun - for it. And I do hope he fights! (I always remember Sandra Bezic's admiring "what a competitor!" comment about him from 2014.)

Jason: And finally, in just about two weeks, we'll see Jason again. And about time, too - I really miss the old days of frequent tweets, but if relative silence means more brilliant performances, I'll take it! Jason's been great this year, but he's absolutely not guaranteed a medal - aside from Hanyu, he's going to face tough competition from Nathan, Kolyada, and Bychenko. Do you think we'll see two landed, fully rotated 4Ts? What about a 4S? Do you think he'll make GPF, and if so, is that good or will it sap his energy for the second half of the season?

I'm not ignoring Ross, Grant, or Tim, but they've all underperformed this year. Do they have any chance for making the World Team? Ross and Grant both have upcoming GPs; Tim does not. What do they have to do?

One last thing: Jordan Moeller will be competing at sectionals next week. I so fell in love with his skating last summer at that ex I saw, and I'm really rooting for him to make it back to Nats and make top ten!

 

[ice coverage]

Congratulations to Adam for the bronze in Paris, and to Nathan for all he accomplished in his GP debut :yay:.

---

Yes, that sounds right. IIRC, I think I read somewhere that Max should finish his degree this season

... I remember reading about him saying where he wants to end up working and it was one of the really top huge companies like Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan or something. ...

AmbitiousBat.

:agree: Yes, I too recall that Max is in the Class of 2017 at UCCS.
Ditto re his aspirations to get his MBA at Harvard Business School ... and then to work for the likes of Goldman or JP Morgan.

Ambitious, but everything is well within Max's reach, in my estimation. Go, Max :yay:.

... OTOH, it seems like Nathan wants to get his four-year degree at Harvard.

BTW, Nathan has said that he is interested not only in Harvard College for his Bachelor's, but also Harvard Medical School thereafter for his M.D.
(The new-to-me part about HMS is in the November issue of Skating magazine.)

Also ambitious, but everything is well within Nathan's reach, in my estimation. Go, Nathan :yay:.

Skaters rule .

 

[andromache]

So okay folks. We've now seen all the US guys at least once this season! What do you think?

Adam: Adam looked very strong today - stronger, I thought, than at Skate America (although it's a bit hard to compare since I saw SA live). He and Jason were already running neck and neck, but I think with this performance it's even closer. Maybe Adam has even passed Jason? He's got a ratified 4T now and Jason doesn't. His TES is a little higher, but Jason still seems to have a slight PCS advantage. What do you think?

Jason has and should keep his deserved PCS advantage. I love Adam's programs, and I think I might personally enjoy them more than Jason's, but there's no contest between them on skating skills, IMO. Jason is clearly the winner there, and on transitions. The other PCS categories are more a matter of personal preference and both guys really, really excel in them.

I'm curious as to how solid Adam's 4T is in practice. It looked really good here. But is it good enough to get into the SP too? That could give Adam more of a technical edge. I kind of expect Jason's 4T to be ready by Nationals though. Not sure why . Another means for a technical edge for Adam would be to move both 3As to the second half of the program.

Adam has come such a long way ever since moving to Raf, and he proved his naysayers wrong by getting a rotated quad with positive GOE! He skates programs he's passionate about and has really made unique and exquisite performances his trademark, always committing 200% to the choreography and interpretation, down to pointing his toes. His commitment to performance is truly admirable and is world-class, world-medal quality, even though the rest of his skating isn't, and he's doing it while also mastering many of the jumps that used to give him problems.

Now it's Jason's turn to prove the naysayers wrong! Fingers crossed he gets to go to GPF!

 

[karne]

Adam: Adam looked very strong today - stronger, I thought, than at Skate America (although it's a bit hard to compare since I saw SA live). He and Jason were already running neck and neck, but I think with this performance it's even closer. Maybe Adam has even passed Jason? He's got a ratified 4T now and Jason doesn't. His TES is a little higher, but Jason still seems to have a slight PCS advantage. What do you think?

No. Jason is now the undisputed king of the second mark among the US men. With Jeremy retired and Joshua now gone, there are none who can hold a candle to him, let alone say they are in the same league. As for the joke about Adam's ratified 4T and Jason's not, that's an utter disgrace. The one Adam did this morning was less around than the one Jason did at Skate America. The tech calling has created an anomaly which Jason will doubtless rectify at NHK.

Jason is in formidable form and I have no hesitation in saying that, barring injury, he will be on that plane to Helsinki, and rightfully so.

Max: After a rocky short, Max made a nice recovery last week in his FS. He's a long shot for the GPF, but if he does well in China, it could set him up for a strong showing at Nats / making the World Team. Does anyone know where he's been training this week? What would you like to see him focus on at COC? I think he has a shot at a medal, but he'll probably have to fight Brezina and Voronov -and maybe Kovtun - for it. And I do hope he fights! (I always remember Sandra Bezic's admiring "what a competitor!" comment about him from 2014.)

I do not know if Max went back to the US during this week or if he was training somewhere else. I do hope Tom Z comes with him to China, or if Z can't again, Mr Mills does. What would I like to see at CoC? Him backing himself, doing what he knows he can. There is no doubt he will fight because he always does, that is why he nearly snatched fourth at CoR. I find it insulting that you see him only able to fight Brezina, Voronov and Kovtun at CoC; he can fight for the win or at least the podium at CoC. Let's hope the judges don't get blinded by Chan and give him what he deserves for the FS this week; the fact that he got 76 PCS for that grand FS at CoR and then Chen got 79 for that empty, lifeless FS at TdF is more than a little insulting.

 

[Tavi...]

No. Jason is now the undisputed king of the second mark among the US men. With Jeremy retired and Joshua now gone, there are none who can hold a candle to him, let alone say they are in the same league. As for the joke about Adam's ratified 4T and Jason's not, that's an utter disgrace. The one Adam did this morning was less around than the one Jason did at Skate America. The tech calling has created an anomaly which Jason will doubtless rectify at NHK.

Jason is in formidable form and I have no hesitation in saying that, barring injury, he will be on that plane to Helsinki, and rightfully so.



I do not know if Max went back to the US during this week or if he was training somewhere else. I do hope Tom Z comes with him to China, or if Z can't again, Mr Mills does. What would I like to see at CoC? Him backing himself, doing what he knows he can. There is no doubt he will fight because he always does, that is why he nearly snatched fourth at CoR. I find it insulting that you see him only able to fight Brezina, Voronov and Kovtun at CoC; he can fight for the win or at least the podium at CoC. Let's hope the judges don't get blinded by Chan and give him what he deserves for the FS this week; the fact that he got 76 PCS for that grand FS at CoR and then Chen got 79 for that empty, lifeless FS at TdF is more than a little insulting.

Ha ha Karne - don't be insulted. First of all, you know I wrote a lot up there, and sometimes I just get tired of words. Second, if it was unclear, I meant he was fighting those guys for the podium, not fourth or fifth place. I don't think it's impossible for Max to win or take silver, but I do think it's a long shot and bronze would be more likely simply because because it's in China, and he's facing Chan and Jin. Neither of those two has been lights out this year but both have had some great moments and are working hard. If Max skates as well and as confidently as he did at SA last year - and that's what I'm hoping for him - he could do very well. But we haven't seen him in that place yet this season. I hope we do.

As to Jason and Adam, while I personally prefer Jason's skating and believe he deserves higher PCS, I'm trying to be objective. Adam's scores here - SP, FS and total - were very very close to Jason's at SA. That's about an 8 point increase for Adam since SA. About 5 points of that come from not falling on the quad, but his PCS was also a couple of points higher, though still below Jason's. So it seems to me that right now the judges are viewing them roughly as equals. Now if you recall, Jason's TES at SA was initially 98+, so if he fixes whatever caused it to drop (or gets a correct call on the 4T - you know I'm hopeless when it comes to judging <) there may be more separation between his scores and Adam's.

ETA @Andromache I hope you're right and Jason gets to GPF and proves naysayers wrong about 4T! I guess I'm opposite to you in that I relate more to Jason's skating and programs. But I do think Adam has worked really hard and made huge strides, which I find really impressive. I did notice a big difference today! And actually, as much as I've criticized (or thought about criticizing) Raf, I do think he's really done wonders for Adam. And I felt kinda glad for him that Adam beat Nathan, because I have the feeling it was tough on him when Nathan left.

 

[qwerty]

Based on what we've seen so far, Jason, Adam, and Nathan are very much on par. It's going to be a thrilling Nationals!

I think a healthy Jason and Nathan are our best bet for three spots for the Olympic year, and I say this as an Adam fan. Nathan has such huge scoring potential, which we saw particularly in the short at TDF. Jason has the PCS and GOE edge over both.

Adam is my personal favorite, and it'd be heartbreaking for him to go clean at Nationals and not place higher than third. But I think if all go clean, it's Nathan, Jason, then Adam.

All three going clean is somewhat unlikely though. A lot will come down to who is cleaner on the quads, particularly to separate Jason and Adam.

I think Max is fighting for 4th this year.

 

[ice coverage]

... In my experience, it's fairly rare to get your first degree at a mid-tier school and then get your later degree at a very prestigious school, as those prestigious schools are far more likely to accept you only if you went to a prestigious school for your first degree. ...

Belatedly noticed this part of your post.
I just scanned through a complete list of May 2016 recipients of Harvard MBAs.
FWIW, among them were alumni of numerous mid-tier (IMO) schools. Including numerous state schools (definitely not limited to higher-prestige state schools such as U Mich, UNC, UVa, UC schools).

And I do think that Max would be a highly attractive candidate to the HBS admissions office.
As karne said, his grades apparently are very strong; he has been national champion and top-ten-in-the-world in the sport of his choice (which speaks to work ethic, discipline, self-motivation, achieving goals, and more); he has traveled the world; etc.
Max would have a lot to offer to his classmates at HBS.