Did Kaetlyn Osmond make history?

[SnowWhite]

Wagner, Gold and Nagasu finished 2nd, 4th and 10th at Worlds with scores not out of line with their Nationals scores. Gabby Daleman was fine with her Nationals/Worlds scores, too. OTOH:

Alaine Chartrand
201.99 68.81 133.18 Nationals
157.82 55.67 102.15 Worlds

Patrick Chan
295.67 103.58 192.09 Nationals
266.75 94.84 171.91 Worlds

BTW, I was at St. Paul and saw the performances of the top ladies. Wagner, Gold and Nagasu earned the marks they got, particularly Gold---that was the best FS performance she has ever done. No doubt her disappointment after Worlds was because she was unable to repeat that FS performance in Boston. Perhaps she should have consoled herself with the fact that Boston's Worlds was the best SP performance of her life so far.

Patrick Chan
277.42 -- Nationals 2014
275.62 -- Sochi Olympics

Virtue/Moir
187.23 -- Nationals 2013
185.02 -- Worlds 2013

And V/M actually scored higher at Worlds 2012 than at nationals that year.

Look! I can cherry-pick numbers too: Hanyu was 15 points higher at Japanese nats than at Worlds in both 2014 and 2015. And you even said yourself that Gabrielle Daleman's numbers were comparable. The difference between her and Chan and Chartrand being that she actually skated well at worlds. Obviously national inflation is a thing, but your examples don't really show it at all.

 

[4everchan]

and again chuckm ^^ (see post on previous page)

it seems like you forgot that they lost levels on two elements in the SD and had poor level 2 twizzles in the FD...

Would you please stop trying to compare scores from different events, especially when some events were not as well skated as others?

I'd be willing to look at some tendencies for inflation if we could compare scores of perfectly alike performances... You seem to forget one very important thing too : for some skaters, it is much easier to skate at their national event, like it would be for Weapo, who were clearly ahead of the pack in Canada last year, while at worlds, they had everything to lose... and they did struggle.

Seriously, you are comparing apples and oranges all the time, and pretending they are exactly the same... do you think we are not knowledgeable enough to see what you are doing here?

 

[Skatergal101]

lets go osmond!!! I think she will blow everyone away at nationals (or I'm hoping she does)

 

[Skatergal101]

and again chuckm ^^ (see post on previous page)

it seems like you forgot that they lost levels on two elements in the SD and had poor level 2 twizzles in the FD...

Would you please stop trying to compare scores from different events, especially when some events were not as well skated as others?

I'd be willing to look at some tendencies for inflation if we could compare scores of perfectly alike performances... You seem to forget one very important thing too : for some skaters, it is much easier to skate at their national event, like it would be for Weapo, who were clearly ahead of the pack in Canada last year, while at worlds, they had everything to lose... and they did struggle.

Seriously, you are comparing apples and oranges all the time, and pretending they are exactly the same... do you think we are not knowledgeable enough to see what you are doing here?

Not sure why he still posts on this thread tbh lol. His comments are irrelevant

 

[Osmond4gold]

But then there is WEAVER / POJE, who probably skated well at Nationals and were scored 191.73 76.20 115.53 (higher than V/M's 2014 Oly score)
Was that an "honest critique of performance"?
At Worlds they skated well but scored 182.01 71.83 110.18.

Umm....totally off topic here, but I would suggest you re-watch US men's nationals from St Paul's, for examples of poor judging,...and you were there? Carrots...what carrots? And then explain to all how US judges scores are void of all inflation.

 

[chuckm]

Umm....totally off topic here, but I would suggest you re-watch US men's nationals from St Paul's, for examples of poor judging,...and you were there? Carrots...what carrots? And then explain to all how US judges scores are void of all inflation.

The discussion in this thread was on LADIES skating.

If I were you, I wouldn't bring up Men's scoring, as two Canadian men went to Worlds and only one made it to the FS.
At Nationals, the man who placed #2 wasn't deemed good enough to go to Worlds, #3 couldn't earn the required TES, and #4 was sent (see above).

 

[chuckm]

and again chuckm ^^ (see post on previous page)

it seems like you forgot that they lost levels on two elements in the SD and had poor level 2 twizzles in the FD...

Would you please stop trying to compare scores from different events, especially when some events were not as well skated as others?

I'd be willing to look at some tendencies for inflation if we could compare scores of perfectly alike performances... You seem to forget one very important thing too : for some skaters, it is much easier to skate at their national event, like it would be for Weapo, who were clearly ahead of the pack in Canada last year, while at worlds, they had everything to lose... and they did struggle.

Seriously, you are comparing apples and oranges all the time, and pretending they are exactly the same... do you think we are not knowledgeable enough to see what you are doing here?

W/P WON the GPF just before Canadian Nationals and they scored 182.66 72.75 109.91. Their PB total score is 182.93 from the 2015 WTT, and their PB FD is the 110.18 they earned at 2016 Worlds. W/P are wonderful performers but they do not skate consistent technically clean performances, and that is why their scores haven't shown a significant increase over the past three years:


181.54 73.78 107.76 COC 2016
178.57 69.81 108.76 COR 2016
182.01 71.83 110.18 WORLDS 2016
173.85 72.42 101.43 4CC 2016
182.66 72.75 109.91 GPF 2015
173.58 69.49 104.09 COR 2015
173.79 68.00 105.79 SC 2015

That is why I found their 2016 Nationals scores (which exceeded those of V/M's at the 2014 Olympics) extremely inflated. W/P's scores over the past 3 years have fluctuated quite a bit, but haven't even been able to crack 185, much less 190.

 

[4everchan]

so why did you bring up weapo? ^^

are you just trolling? sometimes I wonder.

 

[lyndichee]

The discussion in this thread was on LADIES skating.

If I were you, I wouldn't bring up Men's scoring, as two Canadian men went to Worlds and only one made it to the FS.
At Nationals, the man who placed #2 wasn't deemed good enough to go to Worlds, #3 couldn't earn the required TES, and #4 was sent (see above).

Your participation in discussion in this thread (and with the same members) is limited to only negative feedback that characterize the negative qualities as "Canadian" or this time "Russian".

Fans of Canadian figure skating, please stop asking him to explain his rationale or engage him if you are posting you don't want him here. Clearly a lot of members dislike this sort of discussion in this thread and it is better to ignore than to entertain.

Canadian ladies are very exciting to watch right now considering we have 3 ladies who are very talented and had various achievements in the 3 years leading up to the Olympics. That make it difficult to imagine only 2 may get the opportunity to go to the Olympics. So far it seems Osmond is still the favourite going into Nationals however I wonder how the team event for the Olympics will be selected. Given Gabby's success as well, I could see them splitting the ladies. I don't think Patrick wants to skate both programs so maybe Virtue/Moir and Duhamel/Radford may skate both programs to maximize points.

Maybe mods may consider closing this thread or merging it into the State of Canadian Figure Skating thread? I think it would be more relevant and I think the question in the title has been answered.

 

[4everchan]

^^ closing is a good idea... no need to merge it with the Canadian skating thread as it would just bring back a topic we already addressed in there about national inflation.

 

[Osmond4gold]

As my Cape Breton Grandmother use to say, "save your soul and don't feed a troll".

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

That is why I found their 2016 Nationals scores (which exceeded those of V/M's at the 2014 Olympics) extremely inflated. W/P's scores over the past 3 years have fluctuated quite a bit, but haven't even been able to crack 185, much less 190.

If you keep this up, you're going to become as popular as I am.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Back to the topic, I am very excited to see how Kaetlyn does the rest of the season. I just wish her jumps could be rewarded more under COP, because even if she gets +3's, Evgenia's +2's with second half bonus will top that.

 

[gsyzf]

If you keep this up, you're going to become as popular as I am.

Do you mean you are not popular? I find your posts in general quite fair and rational.

 

[SarahSynchro]

If you keep this up, you're going to become as popular as I am.

I assume you don't spend a lot of time in the Canadian thread, right? The aforementioned poster is "popular" in there, if you can call it that.

 

[gsyzf]

Back to the topic, I am very excited to see how Kaetlyn does the rest of the season. I just wish her jumps could be rewarded more under COP, because even if she gets +3's, Evgenia's +2's with second half bonus will top that.

I think some people just naturally jump bigger than others because they have more muscles in their legs. I don't think bigger jumpers should get more GOE just because they are bigger. These skaters don't necessarily spend more effort or put in more practice than smaller jumpers because they are actually gifted with the explosive power. Skaters who jump smaller also have to put in the effort to jump with added difficulty like arm variations, preceding steps/transitions and back-loading. I would give similar GOE to skaters who can land big jumps well without any additional difficulty features (it's harder to land bigger jumps than smaller jumps) and skaters who jump smaller with additional difficulty features. IMO, only skaters who can land big jumps with with additional difficulty features deserve to get higher GOE than skaters who jump smaller with additional difficulty features. So unless Kaetlyn also jumps like evgenia (i.e. with tanos, preceding steps, backloading), I don't think her jumps should be rewarded more than Evgenia's just because her jumps are bigger.

 

[moriel]

I think some people just naturally jump bigger than others because they have more muscles in their legs. I don't think bigger jumpers should get more GOE just because they are bigger. These skaters don't necessarily spend more effort or put in more practice than smaller jumpers because they are actually gifted with the explosive power. Skaters who jump smaller also have to put in the effort to jump with added difficulty like arm variations, preceding steps/transitions and back-loading. I would give similar GOE to skaters who can land big jumps well without any additional difficulty features (it's harder to land bigger jumps than smaller jumps) and skaters who jump smaller with additional difficulty features. IMO, only skaters who can land big jumps with with additional difficulty features deserve to get higher GOE than skaters who jump smaller with additional difficulty features. So unless Kaetlyn also jumps like evgenia (i.e. with tanos, preceding steps, backloading), I don't think her jumps should be rewarded more than Evgenia's just because her jumps are bigger.

Well, imho size should be rewarded, yes, as big jumps have more impact.
However, overall, Kaetlyn is just not there yet - if this years worlds will be like last year, a small mistake can easily drop a skater out of top 5.

 

[gsyzf]

Well, imho size should be rewarded, yes, as big jumps have more impact.
However, overall, Kaetlyn is just not there yet - if this years worlds will be like last year, a small mistake can easily drop a skater out of top 5.

The question is, do you reward raw talent or hard work/training? I think the size of the jump itself depends on raw talent of the skater. Skaters who jump big are skaters who are naturally gifted with those muscle power. Skaters who jump small are skaters who are not naturally gifted with those muscle power. No matter how hard they train or try, they can't jump big. If a judging system is only designed to reward raw talent, then there is no need to have a competition because the more naturally gifted athletes will always beat the less gifted athletes. Big jumps with good flow are harder than smaller jumps with good flow. So, I can understand rewarding more to a bigger jump when the only difference between two jumps is size. But if the smaller jumper also adds additional difficulty features to his/her jumps, then he/she also puts in effort and training to learn to jump that way. IMO, a smaller jump with additional difficulty features don't deserve less than a bigger jump with no additional difficulty features because both skaters put in similar efforts/training to land those jumps. I can see why height/distance only checks 1 GOE bullet point (or at most 2 bullet points if the height/distance is much bigger) and I don't think height/distance should deserve more points than other bullet points. (The only bullet point that I think may deserve less is "effortlessness" because that's quite subjective. The only skaters that I think should get much more credit for doing bigger jumps are Midori Ito and Tonya Harding because they were really far ahead of their time.)

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

The question is, do you reward raw talent or hard work/training?

You reward the quality of the element itself. Different skaters are able to get more extension on spins and spirals, and we don't forgive bad positions simply because they lack the flexibility. Bigger jumps are inherently more risky, because the longer you're off the ice the more time you have in the air for things to go wrong. That's why you see top skaters like Gracie attempt to make jumps a bit smaller. Certainly difficult entries and air positions should be rewarded, but not as much as a well-executed element itself IMO.

 

[chuckm]

The first three jumps of Kaetlyn's FS are huge and powerful, but after that they get smaller and lose power as her stamina begins to flag, and she has often doubled a few jumps towards the end of the program. Medvedeva's jumps may be smaller, but they are all of the same size and power from the beginning of the program to the end.

Obviously, the powerful jumps are going to get higher GOE than the weaker ones, and certainly more than the doubled ones. Medevedeva's jumps get uniformly high GOE because they are consistently executed well with additional features (the tanos, whether we appreciate them or not).