Did Kaetlyn Osmond make history?

[Sackie]

And reputation judging is not just used on individual skaters but on a whole nation some times. Because CAN has been known to be weak in ladies every time we have a great one come along - like Elizabeth, Joannie, and now Kaetlyn, Gabby and Alaine it takes time for them to build up a reputation. Even when they skate well they are not given the same benefit of the doubt that others are simply because 'they are from CAN so how good can they really be.'
Where as with the countries like RUS, JPN and the USA that are known to have great ladies the new ones are taken more seriously right off the bat because of 'hey they are from the USA, RUS or JPN so they must be good!' thinking!

 

[Osmond4gold]

And reputation judging is not just used on individual skaters but on a whole nation some times. Because CAN has been known to be weak in ladies every time we have a great one come along - like Elizabeth, Joannie, and now Kaetlyn, Gabby and Alaine it takes time for them to build up a reputation. Even when they skate well they are not given the same benefit of the doubt that others are simply because 'they are from CAN so how good can they really be.'
Where as with the countries like RUS, JPN and the USA that are known to have great ladies the new ones are taken more seriously right off the bat because of 'hey they are from the USA, RUS or JPN so they must be good!' thinking!

Thus, the sentiment by many (up to the past 2 months), that Canadian skating particularly our women are not viewed as 'contenders' and given the same legitimacy as the other 3 countries you referenced, Sackie. Some call it anti-Canadian on here...I don't have a name but "IT" does exist. You particularly see it in PCS's relative to performances, and hear it from certain posters, such as, "W.T.-. was up with Osmond's PCS?", or "she does not have the same skating skills or reputation as ...". It's hard to build a reputation when your are being...held. If truth be told the latest crop of Russian robots have only been at the senior level for a short time, yet automatically are given a pass.

Given the current level of our Top 3, Canadian women should never be thought as second-tier skaters, particularly in PCS, as they have been historically.

 

[TGee]

That's the same issue in all human judging, not just in figure skating judging. Judges' scores are influenced by the performer's reputation and momentum. As long as it's human judging, you will see individuals/organizations try to lobby judges in order to influence the results. Movie studios campaign and lobby in order to win oscars. Even Nobel prize selection has lobbyists.

Every girl is doing almost the same thing today. The difference between top skaters is quite small. So I think the winner will just come down to who is more consistent.

My problem is that you think that reputation judging a sport is a good thing.

Yes, human beings are as they are, but I find it boggling to defend a system that encourages it.....because that leaves us open to the kind of corruption at Salt Lake City and devastating embarrassments for the sport. The whole point is to get the most unbiased judging as humanly possible, while accepting that "what is good/excellent" is an international concensus.

I disagree that the Oscars or Academic prizes are comparable. Both are awards by professional associations that measure in part how large an impact the particular film or research has had. So encouraging members of the association to get to know the material and discuss its value is part of the whole point.

Lastly, the difference between skaters might be more noticeable if IJS valued things differently. I will never critique the Eteri skaters for maximizing what they can get under the current SoV and bullet points. I do nonetheless critique things that I see regularly that I do not want encouraged. I think that it's perfectly fair to say this isn't the way I want skating to progress, and this isn't the model I want the young skaters in our family to follow. These things include travelling spins or spins where the vertical leg is not 90 degrees from the ice, pre-rotation, murky edges on take offs, mini jumps, pumping arms to get take-off, lack of speed etc.

 

[chuckm]

But "the latest crop of Russian robots" were also the cream of the crop when they were juniors, winning JGPF and JW medals---that's how they got to the GP as soon as they were age eligible and were able to win GP medals in their first Senior year. Some have even won European and World medals in their first or second year. It isn't as if they were given major reputation points for nothing.

The same cannot be said for the Canadian ladies, who seem to be late bloomers just coming into form. It doesn't do any good for fans to stamp their feet and whine that they should be treated the same way as the Russian ladies, who, by the way, have earned their 'reputations' back at home by years and years of day in and day out domestic competition throughout the season. They are the survivors and deserve some respect for the skills they have learned along the way.

 

[lyndichee]

But "the latest crop of Russian robots" were also the cream of the crop when they were juniors, winning JGPF and JW medals---that's how they got to the GP as soon as they were age eligible and were able to win GP medals in their first Senior year. Some have even won European and World medals in their first or second year. It isn't as if they were given major reputation points for nothing.

The same cannot be said for the Canadian ladies, who seem to be late bloomers just coming into form. It doesn't do any good for fans to stamp their feet and whine that they should be treated the same way as the Russian ladies, who, by the way, have earned their 'reputations' back at home by years and years of day in and day out domestic competition throughout the season. They are the survivors and deserve some respect for the skills they have learned along the way.

Let's not talk about this as a Canadian issue (as you always like you make it out), ladies should be given scores that reflect the quality of their skating at the competition. Late bloomers are also survivors, whether it is the 20 year old Osmond or the 26 year old Ashley Wagner. Mao was also one of the oldest competitors, she arguably has some of the best skating skills out there and her spins are sublime. She has had WR scores, attempted the 3A throughout her entire career. Where was her respect in her PCS scores? She survived more than just successful junior seasons, 3 world titles and OGM. Why do these ladies not deserve respect for the skills they have learned along way? What a condescending statement that shouldn't play into a sport's scoring system.

 

[4everchan]

I think Osmond definitely has made history... What Canadian lady skater gets a thread all about her and gets it to 8 pages???? History is being made right now

 

[gravy]

I think Osmond definitely has made history... What Canadian lady skater gets a thread all about her and gets it to 8 pages???? History is being made right now

I think Rochette has her beat in that department actually.

Speaking of which, can she drop out of medical school and come back? I miss me Joannie.

 

[4everchan]

most likely very possible and deserved if it were about 2010 olympics... however, i haven't seen the thread... wasn't on this forum...and yes... she retired too early but who can blame her?

I think Rochette has her beat in that department actually.

Speaking of which, can she drop out of medical school and come back? I miss me Joannie.

 

[4everchan]

most likely very possible and deserved if it were about 2010 olympics... however, i haven't seen the thread... wasn't on this forum...and yes... she retired too early but who can blame her?[

PS this is a rhetorical question... i have a couple ideas about some posters who may attempt to answer that question

 

[gravy]

PS this is a rhetorical question... i have a couple ideas about some posters who may attempt to answer that question

Well surely she can't say that it's because she felt all this anti-Canadian sentiment when she started doing well. :sarcasm:

She was one of the most beloved skaters when she competed even before her mother's passing.

 

[4everchan]

again, i wasn't on GS... so i don't know.. .but here's something : I thought everyone loved Patrick Chan before joining GS... what a surprise I had... your join date says 2014... so maybe you were lurking or have visited other forums... I'd be curious to see the loving threads for anyone Canadian...

Well surely she can't say that it's because she felt all this anti-Canadian sentiment when she started doing well. :sarcasm:

She was one of the most beloved skaters when she competed even before her mother's passing.

 

[Mathman]

^ If you type "Joannie Rochette" into the search field in the upper right-hand corner it will display 10 pages worth of GS threads about Joannie. :yes:

 

[mrrice]

again, i wasn't on GS... so i don't know.. .but here's something : I thought everyone loved Patrick Chan before joining GS... what a surprise I had... your join date says 2014... so maybe you were lurking or have visited other forums... I'd be curious to see the loving threads for anyone Canadian...

I'm not going to get into this right now but, this is correct. I don't think the archives go back to the years between 2010-2014. I almost got kicked off the forum for defending Patrick. He got more "Vitriol" than Maria B. or Plushy EVER received...What I'd like to do is look toward the future. I know that next year will probably be Patrick's last and that makes me feel OLD. More than anything, it will make me sad. Probably the saddest I've been over a skaters retirement. However, unlike Joshua, they will be happy tears as I think Patrick's comeback has been a wonderful experience for the Canadian Fans and definitely for me......Now, I'm gonna cry again...

 

[gravy]

again, i wasn't on GS... so i don't know.. .but here's something : I thought everyone loved Patrick Chan before joining GS... what a surprise I had... your join date says 2014... so maybe you were lurking or have visited other forums... I'd be curious to see the loving threads for anyone Canadian...

You're more than welcome to search the archives yourself if you want "proof" that anti-Canadian sentiment is real (hint: it's not.)

 

[4everchan]

^ If you type "Joannie Rochette" into the search field in the upper right-hand corner it will display 10 pages worth of GS threads about Joannie. :yes:

i have used the search feature before.. just did it again to see which threads... apart from her fan fest, Joannie is mentioned but not the centre of a thread, which was my comment about Osmond making history Joannie is often mentioned for having all 5 triples with correct technique and of course she is mentioned in many other skaters' fan fest because she toured with many others.

You're more than welcome to search the archives yourself if you want "proof" that anti-Canadian sentiment is real (hint: it's not.)

no need... what I perceive may be different than what you perceive... wouldn't be the first time... I don't need archives to tell me how I feel like all I was saying is that it was a very big surprise to me, when joining here, to see so many people complain about Patrick... (and fair enough, other skaters)... but as a Canadian, it was a surprise as for many of us, Patrick is a true role model, a 3 time world champion and twice silver olympic medalist, a great technician with textbook jumps when on, with exquisite skating skills beyond all other skaters... Yes... I am sure we could say we are biased very positively about Patrick. However, coming here, I can tell you I have seen a lot of anti-Chan and anti-Canadian posts... if you don't think this bias exists, well good for you some people do not believe the Earth is a sphere either.

 

[Osmond4gold]

You're more than welcome to search the archives yourself if you want "proof" that anti-Canadian sentiment is real (hint: it's not.)

But the Green Envy Monster is alive and well as you know gravy, esp. when a country like Canada that has been blessed with a war chest of riches. Even you have needed to defer to comps. from 4 years ago, in order to justify an argument, versus the reality that is today.

 

[gravy]

I'm not going to get into this right now but, this is correct. I don't think the archives go back to the years between 2010-2014. I almost got kicked off the forum for defending Patrick. He got more "Vitriol" than Maria B. or Plushy EVER received...

People disliking Patrick has nothing to do with the fact he's Canadian. It has more to do with the fact that he's a loud mouth who has spoken down about his competitors on a number of occasions and the fact that's he a bit of a sore loser (thankfully he's gotten better).

Patrick the skater is actually really revered on here. Patrick when he opens his mouth to bash others, isn't.

no need... what I perceive may be different than what you perceive... wouldn't be the first time... I don't need archives to tell me how I feel like all I was saying is that it was a very big surprise to me, when joining here, to see so many people complain about Patrick... (and fair enough, other skaters)... but as a Canadian, it was a surprise as for many of us, Patrick is a true role model, a 3 time world champion and twice silver olympic medalist, a great technician with textbook jumps when on, with exquisite skating skills beyond all other skaters... Yes... I am sure we could say we are biased very positively about Patrick. However, coming here, I can tell you I have seen a lot of anti-Chan and anti-Canadian posts... if you don't think this bias exists, well good for you some people do not believe the Earth is a sphere either.

Keep trucking on with this "earth is flat" argument you have here.

 

[TGee]

You're more than welcome to search the archives yourself if you want "proof" that anti-Canadian sentiment is real (hint: it's not.)

uhm....it may not have always been so, but it was certainly true over the past two years. . .

I lurked long before I joined GS, and I actually chose this board to join because it had relatively less anti Canadian and anti Russian vitriol.

But it's enough that I realized that my naive idea of joining the discussion without showing my national identity was hopeless. There was no chance that I would not feel the need to balance the conversation and add relevant facts and analysis into a fairly hostile discussion.

Frankly, number of times that I've seen folks called over sensitive or nationalistic when they feel it's gone too far borders on outrageous.

And I don't get why any folks are unhappy that there's sufficient interest in a Canadian woman to keep a discussion of her potential going when two US ladies who are apparently out of play this season have active threads on the edge. I'm actually quite fond of Gracie and Polina as skaters and am interested in both, but in the global discussion about this season Kaetlyn's breakout is a bigger story.

 

[Mathman]

Chan fans also must bear part of the responsibility for anti-Chan sentiment. There was quite a lot of gloating and disparaging of other skaters for not being as good as Patrick in those years.

 

[Osmond4gold]

Chan fans also must bear part of the responsibility for anti-Chan sentiment. There was quite a lot of gloating and disparaging of other skaters for not being as good as Patrick in those years.

I guess I must be a newbie, as a member since 2013, as I have never heard or witnessed such a thing. Like TGee, I lurked then joined, as I could no longer read/watch as some posters were just plain nasty towards Canadian skaters.

So someone being a jerk 6 years ago, justifies someone else being a jerk today?