Women and the Quad

[Mafke]

Back when the CoP starting going after unerrotation with a vengeance I (and a few others) pointed out that the idea that young women could actually do the number of triples they'd been getting credit for was kind of a myth. If you want to see lots of ladies doing lots of "triples" then you're going to have to put up with a lot of underrotation. I seem to recall that this message was not very well received but it still seems fairly accurate. A young woman with the physique to do 3 axels and/or a quad or two would be massacred in PCS because she wouldn't fit the stereotype (and young girls with that kind of athleticism are unlikely to want to try figure skating anyway).

I totally don't get the appeal of quads, especially all the stick figure young men with almost no skating skills stumbling around between them. A handful of men have made quads look like anything but a massive time and choreography suck.

 

[moriel]

Back when the CoP starting going after unerrotation with a vengeance I (and a few others) pointed out that the idea that young women could actually do the number of triples they'd been getting credit for was kind of a myth. If you want to see lots of ladies doing lots of "triples" then you're going to have to put up with a lot of underrotation. I seem to recall that this message was not very well received but it still seems fairly accurate. A young woman with the physique to do 3 axels and/or a quad or two would be massacred in PCS because she wouldn't fit the stereotype (and young girls with that kind of athleticism are unlikely to want to try figure skating anyway).

I totally don't get the appeal of quads, especially all the stick figure young men with almost no skating skills stumbling around between them. A handful of men have made quads look like anything but a massive time and choreography suck.

Wrong. See Tsurskaya for example.

 

[gkelly]

Has anyone noticed that the top tier of ladies skating hasn't really advanced in ~25 years?

I disagree with that premise.

If you want to claim that the top tier of ladies' jumping hasn't really advanced in 25 years, I won't dispute that. There were a handful of women ca. 1992 who could keep up with today's competitors in terms of jump content.
(And I can name them all: Ito, Harding, Bonaly, Yamaguchi, Kerrigan, and Chen. There was really no one else in the early 1990s who could do triple-triples and 5-6 different kinds of triples. Maybe Kielmann and Hubert.)

So beyond the top tier, there were a few women who could do triple lutzes, which was a big deal at the time; a few more but probably no more than 20-something in the whole world who could do 5 different triples. Three different triples was typical in the middle of the field, sometimes 4 maybe with a lutz but missing one of the other takeoffs.

Edge quality was strong from those who had trained school figures through the 1980s, but there was a changing of the guard in the early 90s so many of the younger skaters were less precise on their edges as the 90s progressed. The technical content of the step sequences and transitions, however, was much much lower than what is expected today.

There were some good spinners and some average or so-so spinners, but few who were capable of all the spinning skills expected under IJS. And then there was Nathalie Krieg, who could blow everyone out of the water.

I'm saying there were many ladies 25 years ago that could do the same technical content as now, certainly not as many but there were many.

There were a very few. Not many. Have you watched much ladies' skating from 1991-94 beyond the top ten?

I think the technique is different, the women don't jump as high as they used to. That's because the want good flow out of the jump, so that they can do those difficult combos that weren't necessary a couple of years ago.

Hm, interesting. I wonder how much is that everyone trains differently and therefore the same skaters who would have had bigger jumps if they were only doing solo triples are instead jumping lower in order to facilitate combinations? Or is that the natural bigger jumpers find it harder to master combinations and thus find themselves less competitive, while other skaters whose solo triples might have been less impressive are able to rise to the top on the strength of difficult combos (the Lipinski factor)?

Maybe some of each.

Triple-triple combinations for women were very rare in the 1980's and became more common slowly.

True.

But I'm not sure that training for 3T+3T or 3F+3T or 3Lz+3T would have much effect on axel technique. If the same skater is genetically capable of both kinds of difficulty, I don't see why she couldn't work on technique to get enough height on her axel for 3 revolutions.

Unless it's just that they're too busy training for triple-triples and the much higher demands (now compared to 25 years ago) of all the non-jump skills in the programs. Well except for spirals, which are no longer required.

But more likely is probably just that even the biggest ladies jumpers get enough air time on their toe jumps to get 3 revolutions with room to spare, but it's not so easy for a female body to get enough for 3 1/2 or 4 from an axel or salchow takeoff. There have been a tiny handful who have come close enough to try in competition and fewer still who have succeeded. Mao Asada probably boasts the most triple axels in competition over her long career, but she didn't always rotate them.

But this different technique might also make the 3A or quads more difficult for ladies nowadays. Most of the ladies who do a 2A-3T in the FS don't have a very high 2A, but very good speed out of the jump.

Yes, that combo is a stronger argument about axel training.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Perhaps why I like Gabrielle Daleman. For me she's like a throwback to the Ito days. Never thought I'd be impressed with a 3T-3T combination at this day and age like I've been with her. Just the height and the edge, and the speed.

Not to mention she enters it with an Ina Bauer transition and it's still so huge! Imagine her going into it full speed!

 

[andromache]

I wonder if guys like Yagudin and Plushenko would've been physically capable of quad flips/lutzes/loops, if they were to compete in this day and age. Their bodies are built very differently than the bodies of Yuzu, Nathan, Boyang, and even Tim Goebel.

Then again, guys NOT known for the narrowness of their bodies (Shoma, Javier, etc.) also seem to be able to do excellent things technically, so idk.

Anyway, my point is, eventually the sport will start self-selecting for the girls who have the bodies that happen to best at quads. But it'll be different than we see in the men's competition, because (it seems clear to me) that girls ages 13-17 will be the best at rotating jumps as compared to their 18-28 year old counterparts. (Whereas men peak AFTER their bodies have fully matured). Thus, it's unlikely we will see the ladies competition dominated by the same technicians for more than two seasons, whereas with the men, veterans (who aren't TOO old) tend to be very strong even after many seasons. If you get a prepubescent male doing a quad, that seems to bode well. A prepubescent girl, on the other hand, will probably struggle with her triples after she matures. Doing a quad into adulthood will require a very specific type of physique (and likely bone structure).

ETA: And whereas men seem to do better with very slim physiques, perhaps women require a certain physique/bone structure that we might not expect? Tonya and Midori weren't waifish, they weren't known for tiny hips, or balletic line, or great bodies. Both ladies had "huge" (by today's standards) thighs. Both had great 3As that were more consistent/less questionable than Mao's, though Tonya's was ruined by her external issues.

 

[Miller]

A little bit of the physics behind it all. https://skatecoach.wordpress.com/20...ps-a-review-of-minimum-air-times-trevor-laak/

Apparently Sasha Cohen had the most astonishing Quad Sal technique he's ever seen, while her air time of 0.60s equates to a height in the air using this
https://skatecoach.wordpress.com/2007/08/28/are-figure-skaters-projectiles/ of 17.4 inches (0.44m), while for Triple Axels and Quad Sals the general minimum air times and heights are very similar at 0.62s and 18.5 inches for 3As, and 0.63s and 19.15 inches for 4Ss. Wonder what NFL style vertical jump someone like Jason Brown could do, he's right on the edge of doing quads. If a lady skater could match him, she should theoretically be able to do 3As which he has no problem with and 4Ss.

A further thought. Younger skaters won't necessarily have the highest vertical jump. That will come later as they mature into adults. However they will tend to be the ones with the narrowest hips that can do the necessary rotations. Having said that there also seems to be some sort of distinction between 3A jumpers where you need a certain type of athleticism/body type to get the necessary purchase going forward, and 4S jumpers where faster rotation/thinner hips seem more necessary.
Also I would point out that Ruth Beitia the current Olympic High Jump champion was in her mid 30s when she won the title and Olympic high jumpers don't tend to be that young. The problem for skaters once they're older may be more the wear and tear on their bodies from starting so young. Once you've reached adulthood your vertical jump should stay with you for a long time, as Ruth's example shows.

 

[solani]

ETA: And whereas men seem to do better with very slim physiques, perhaps women require a certain physique/bone structure that we might not expect? Tonya and Midori weren't waifish, they weren't known for tiny hips, or balletic line, or great bodies. Both ladies had "huge" (by today's standards) thighs. Both had great 3As that were more consistent/less questionable than Mao's, though Tonya's was ruined by her external issues.

One thing we should take into consideration when we look at the physiques of skaters like Midori or Tonya is that a little more weight was quite helpful when doing figures. I'm sure that both did serious strength training and when you have the mass you can build muscles. Both needed to be able to jump higher to be able to rotate their jumps because the weren't able to rotate that fast because of their physiques. I guess both would have been even better / more consistent jumpers if they had been slimmer and therefore had been able to rotate faster.

 

[gkelly]

Anyway, my point is, eventually the sport will start self-selecting for the girls who have the bodies that happen to best at quads. But it'll be different than we see in the men's competition, because (it seems clear to me) that girls ages 13-17 will be the best at rotating jumps as compared to their 18-28 year old counterparts.

More and more men are attempting quads because they feel they need to, and many of them are succeeding. It's now necessary to land several quads to win world/Olympic medals. But there are still plenty of men competing on the senior international circuit and likely always will be because smaller countries will always have few men competing in any given year so some years they may have one or more who can do quads and other years they won't.

Do we think the men's minimum technical scores to qualify for continental championships/Olympics let alone Worlds will soon be set so high that it would be impossible to achieve them without quads?

What if quads become more common among junior ladies and then most of them lose their quad ability by their later teens? Will seniors be dominated by late-maturing/naturally tiny 15- and 16-year-olds with hardly any competitors over 18 at senior

It is true that quads have very high base value if rotated, and are worth more than easier triples even if underrotated <. So Girls who can come at least that close will have a big advantage in base value. How many will be able to achieve that? And how many of those will also have topnotch blade skills and presentation?

If medalists and a few others in the senior ladies' field includes girls with quads and everything else, will the remainder of the field consist of other young girls who can rotate quads but are otherwise not strong senior quality? Or of older young women without quads (all though some might have had them when they were smaller) but more mature skating skills and presentation?


ETA: And whereas men seem to do better with very slim physiques, perhaps women require a certain physique/bone structure that we might not expect? Tonya and Midori weren't waifish, they weren't known for tiny hips, or balletic line, or great bodies. Both ladies had "huge" (by today's standards) thighs. [/quote]

They were muscular and not thin/waifish in comparison to their height, but they were both very small women, especially Ito who is about 4'9". (Harding about 5'1")

 

[sheetz]

They were muscular and not thin/waifish in comparison to their height, but they were both very small women, especially Ito who is about 4'9". (Harding about 5'1")

Interestingly, Simone Biles is around 4'9", too. Could she have become the next Midori Ito had she become a figure skater?

I wonder if guys like Yagudin and Plushenko would've been physically capable of quad flips/lutzes/loops, if they were to compete in this day and age. Their bodies are built very differently than the bodies of Yuzu, Nathan, Boyang, and even Tim Goebel.

Plushenko did attempt 4Lz in competition at least once. And of course the first to attempt 4Lz was Michael Weiss who had a very muscular physique.

 

[turbulent]

I believe Adelina Sotnikova could have given a serious try to a quad, if she wanted to. She's had monstrous vertical jump.

 

[Jammers]

I believe Adelina Sotnikova could have given a serious try to a quad, if she wanted to. She's had monstrous vertical jump.

She also has less then ideal technique and her jumps were out of control at times.

 

[TGee]

She also has less then ideal technique and her jumps were out of control at times.

Uhm, why is it that it seems to be so much worse, in the views of GS and other fans, if a woman skater has a "wild" or "out of control" jump?

Seriously, male skaters try and fall, and the reaction, beyond the groans at splatfests, is generally to laud height distance and completed rotations...

But consistency and control are so valued in women, that the ones who go for it with big, clear high-value jumps are getting a lot more sneers than cheers. And the same folks who argue that it's unfortunate that great risk taking male jumpers like Kolyada are under-rewarded in the current IJS for their clean jumps with height and distance, argue that the risk-taking ladies with amazing jumps should be held back for insufficient consistency.

And folks wonder why women aren't going for the quads in competition?

 

[Miller]

Suspect we'll end up with a situation where 3As and quads are still not that common, plus multi-ones in the same routine/competition incredibly rare. It's just taken too long to reach this stage. However with the need to compete/make yourself different, and with before you know it every single top lady doing 7 triples/2 double axels, it's going to happen more and more. Also don't think these skaters will necessarily dominate. Historically the skaters that have landed 3As have typically had low PCS scores (Mao excepted), and quads I'm sure will be even rarer. However an Evgenia Medvedeva type skater that can land a quad, could utterly dominate, the only thing holding her back would be the lack of quad in the SP - is this deliberate by the ISU, or have they never even considered the likelihood?

 

[Ares]

Uhm, why is it that it seems to be so much worse, in the views of GS and other fans, if a woman skater has a "wild" or "out of control" jump?

Seriously, male skaters try and fall, and the reaction, beyond the groans at splatfests, is generally to laud height distance and completed rotations...

But consistency and control are so valued in women, that the ones who go for it with big, clear high-value jumps are getting a lot more sneers than cheers. And the same folks who argue that it's unfortunate that great risk taking male jumpers like Kolyada are under-rewarded in the current IJS for their clean jumps with height and distance, argue that the risk-taking ladies with amazing jumps should be held black for insufficient consistency.

And folks wonder why women aren't going for the quads in competition?

I think you might be exaggerating. I for once cheer for ladies skaters trying difficult jumps / combination supported with great athleticism and don't discourage after unsuccessful attempts.

 

[Ares]

Suspect we'll end up with a situation where 3As and quads are still not that common, plus multi-ones in the same routine/competition incredibly rare. It's just taken too long to reach this stage. However with the need to compete/make yourself different, and with before you know it every single top lady doing 7 triples/2 double axels, it's going to happen more and more. Also don't think these skaters will necessarily dominate. Historically the skaters that have landed 3As have typically had low PCS scores (Mao excepted), and quads I'm sure will be even rarer. However an Evgenia Medvedeva type skater that can land a quad, could utterly dominate, the only thing holding her back would be the lack of quad in the SP - is this deliberate by the ISU, or have they never even considered the likelihood?

I concur with your statements but I think that having stable 3A / Quad would really help to break through in competitive field like in Russia. It would not secure their spot as a top skater itself in the World though, especially as those elements would not get any backload bonus (now it seems to be very important factor in ladies field) regardless of their packaging, other technical elements, presentation etc. Learning and putting in difficult element as a challenge is a valuable experience itself though I believe and should pay various dividends in the future, like focus on improved athleticism that is required in quest for such element.

 

[SnowWhite]

I also like the idea discussed elsewhere on this forum to allow triple-triple-triple combinations, which would allow the technical content to move forward even if most women atill aren't doing quads and triple axels.

 

[TGee]

I think you might be exaggerating. I for once cheer for ladies skaters trying difficult jumps / combination supported with great athleticism and don't discourage after unsuccessful attempts.

Definitely, there are a good number of us who cheer on the big jumpers. And I recognize you Ares as one of us.

But there is also a chorus of folks who keep saying that they are inconsistent and don't deserve PCS....not because they don't have good SS, TR and performance on a given day, but because their inconsistency means they should have lower reputation scoring (!). Drop into Canadian nationals, 4CC or Worlds and you will see them weighing in.

And I while I can accept this as a genuinely held view, even if I disagree, I am really struggling with the GS posters who take this position for the women's events, but argue the opposite for men's Freeskate.

There really seems to be a different ideal for women among a significant portion of fans. I sincerely wonder if it is holding back the sport side for women and encouraging downgrading of judging standards on jumps and spins.

 

[andromache]

Definitely, there are a good number of us who cheer on the big jumpers. And I recognize you Ares as one of us.

But there is also a chorus of folks who keep saying that they are inconsistent and don't deserve PCS....not because they don't have good SS, TR and performance on a given day, but because their inconsistency means they should have lower reputation scoring (!). Drop into Canadian nationals, 4CC or Worlds and you will see them weighing in.

And I while I can accept this as a genuinely held view, even if I disagree, I am really struggling with the GS posters who take this position for the women's events, but argue the opposite for men's Freeskate.

There really seems to be a different ideal for women among a significant portion of fans. I sincerely wonder if it is holding back the sport side for women and encouraging downgrading of judging standards on jumps and spins.

Is it the opinions of fans or is it the fans simply responding to the way judging has seemed to play out?

For men, the ones with the highest BVs get rewarded with excellent PCS even if they make a lot of mistakes. Yuzuru and Javi haven't seen a reduction in PCS due to inconsistency.

OTOH, in the past few years, the most successful ladies have been the consistent ones. Yulia (2013-2014), Evgenia, Liza (2014-2015), Elena, Satoko, Maria, (sort of) Ashley are among them. Anna was the distant Russian #3 due to her inconsistency until this season, not getting the PCS she deserved until her Worlds performances last year and then capitalizing on those by skating relatively clean this season. Gracie Gold seems to be an exception - like the men, she can afford to make mistakes, be inconsistent, and not lose the judges' opinion of her. Benefit of being a fed's #1 skater, maybe?

Then ladies skaters who are inconsistent with occasional moments of brilliance kind of get stiffed compared to the others. Gabby Daleman, Li Zijun, Mao Asada (past two seasons), Wakaba Higuchi.

I also think fans push back against some ladies increasing their technical difficulty simply because most ladies don't have a perfect arsenal of triples, anyway. Ladies tend to have more UR problems and scrutinized edge takeoffs than men, and some fans think that those ladies should focus on fixing those problems rather than pursuing something new (see: discussion of Mirai's 3A).

 

[TGee]

Is it the opinions of fans or is it the fans simply responding to the way judging has seemed to play out?

For men, the ones with the highest BVs get rewarded with excellent PCS even if they make a lot of mistakes. Yuzuru and Javi haven't seen a reduction in PCS due to inconsistency.

OTOH, in the past few years, the most successful ladies have been the consistent ones. Yulia (2013-2014), Evgenia, Liza (2014-2015), Elena, Satoko, Maria, (sort of) Ashley are among them. Anna was the distant Russian #3 due to her inconsistency until this season, not getting the PCS she deserved until her Worlds performances last year and then capitalizing on those by skating relatively clean this season. Gracie Gold seems to be an exception - like the men, she can afford to make mistakes, be inconsistent, and not lose the judges' opinion of her. Benefit of being a fed's #1 skater, maybe?

Then ladies skaters who are inconsistent with occasional moments of brilliance kind of get stiffed compared to the others. Gabby Daleman, Li Zijun, Mao Asada (past two seasons), Wakaba Higuchi.

I also think fans push back against some ladies increasing their technical difficulty simply because most ladies don't have a perfect arsenal of triples, anyway. Ladies tend to have more UR problems and scrutinized edge takeoffs than men, and some fans think that those ladies should focus on fixing those problems rather than pursuing something new (see: discussion of Mirai's 3A).

Not sure if it's just the fans, or if judging trends are driving it.

It would take some really intense data and jumpatron analysis to be sure on the judging side.

I can say that some of us have wondered why some men get by with prerotation and poor edges on flips and lutzes, that are now the focus of scrutiny for women. Could be that certain issues are picked up sooner in one gender or the other, but that the scrutiny transfers over eventually. URs, which have been a focus in judging men for some time, seem to only in this season to be getting a high level of scrutiny for women.

 

[gkelly]

Suspect we'll end up with a situation where 3As and quads are still not that common, plus multi-ones in the same routine/competition incredibly rare. It's just taken too long to reach this stage. However with the need to compete/make yourself different, and with before you know it every single top lady doing 7 triples/2 double axels, it's going to happen more and more.

That makes sense.

the only thing holding her back would be the lack of quad in the SP - is this deliberate by the ISU, or have they never even considered the likelihood?

Historically, the ISU has only allowed the hardest jump content in the short program after it had become relatively common in the free skate for that discipline. The biggest exception was allowing the 3A in the ladies' SP a few years ago, when there was really only one woman (Asada) regularly attempting it. Nakano had also been doing 3A in the freeskate, but then she retired before the SP rule change took effect.

Senior ladies weren't allowed to do a solo triple out of steps in the SP until 1995 or a triple-triple combo until 1997. Men weren't allowed to do 3A as the required solo axel or solo quad until 1999 or quad combination until 2001, and even then they could only do one quad either as the solo jump or in the combo -- two quads weren't allowed in the men's short until there were several skaters who had shown two different kinds in the freeskate.

I don't follow pairs quite as closely, but I think it was also around the turn of the century that pairs were first allowed to do triple twist in the SP.

I also like the idea discussed elsewhere on this forum to allow triple-triple-triple combinations,

One three-jump combination is allowed in the freeskate. There's no rule preventing it from being triple-triple-triple. But there's no real value to doing so: With 7 jump passes allowing at maximum 1 combo of 3 jumps and 2 other 2-jump combinations, that makes a total of 11 jumps in a ladies' free skate.

Only 2 triples may be repeated, and the double axel can also only be done twice. So a skater who has 5 different kinds of triples can do a total of 7 triples + 2 double axels = 9 jumps with >2 revolutions. To maximize the slots available, she would have to do lesser doubles as the other 2 jumps. Or half-loop+3F for her 3-jump combination, so she can repeat the higher valued flip instead of the loop or toe loop. A 3-3-3 will include loops and/or toe loops at the end, so either one or both of those lower value triples would be her repeated jumps, or she'd have to use a simple double toe or double loop at the end of her other two combos.

If she can do all 6 different kinds of triples including the axel, then she could include 8 triples total plus 2 double axels, and would only need one double (or single/half loop) jump to fill all the jump slots.

It's perfectly possible to fit all that content into the current ladies' free skate with only one 3-3 combination, or even a 2A+3something combination.

In other words, 3-3-3 combo is currently allowed, but it's not rewarded enough to be worthwhile.

In order to make a layout that includes 3-3-3 valuable enough to be worth doing, some other rules would have to change.

Cutting the number of jumping passes from 7 to 6 would be one way. Amending the Zayak rule to permit 3 or 4 triples to be performed twice would be another. So would adding an explicit bonus to the base values of combinations such that it's more valuable to do a really difficult combination with three difficult jumps plus bonus and then use one of the extra jump slots that opens up to perform a double jump with maximum GOE.

If and when several women can fill a couple of their jump slots with triple axels and/or quads, then it would become useful for those skaters to distinguish themselves from each other by also maximing out their triples.



There will never be a three-jump combination allowed in the short program in its current format, if that's what you were thinking of.

But there is also a chorus of folks who keep saying that they are inconsistent and don't deserve PCS....not because they don't have good SS, TR and performance on a given day, but because their inconsistency means they should have lower reputation scoring (!). Drop into Canadian nationals, 4CC or Worlds and you will see them weighing in.

Those people may exist, but it may also be more that more fans who weigh in primarily about ladies take one position and completely different posters who post more about men take the other.

And then there are those of us who enjoy big jumpers and great skating skills and complex programs and fast flexible spins and great music interpretation, etc. etc. No one skater is going to excel at all of the above, but it's possible to love multiple skaters who each have different strengths.