2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[TontoK]

And this is why the ISU and USFSA should be promoting the GPF as a "major event"!

The Olympics are kinda their own weird thing. Spots are not on the line... it does not affect things long term. Frankly it is easier to select with the heart for the Olympics. I don't recall Jason Brown, Polina Edmunds, or Zhang/Bartholomay getting these comments. Sometimes it just works out that way. Plus Junior Worlds should not be discounted as experience.

I get what you're saying.

But this is a sport, not a telenova. Selection to the team should be straightforward, not a melodrama filled with plot-twists. Skaters should have to earn their spot, on the day. I'm not even a fan of petitioning to the team because of injury.

I like how US Track does it. The trials are what matter, end of story. If you finish in the Top 3 in your event, but don't have the A Standard, then you have until the date the team must be submitted to earn it. Otherwise the spot goes to the highest finisher with the standard.

In this example, Vincent would be going. Had he not earned the standard in Bavaria, then Jason would go. And the chips can fall where they may. But no athlete should feel like he's been politicked out of his opportunity, and the public should not be concerned about our national federation screwing with the natural order of things.

 

[bekalc]

Agreed. This isn't so much about what is best for Vincent. It is best for Vincent to slay in Junior Worlds (which is no guarantee, BTW, with some Russian kids and Nic Nadeau there. If he wins JW, that will be quite a coup. He has a lot of competition).

This is just piling on Jason. Been there, done that, got the T shirt. And no one rattling on about Vincent will change my mind about Jason.

I would appreciate, however, that posters concentrate on what has been said, and not attacking some straw person about hypothetical future comments. Not that I think that will happen....

More importantly, it's 63 degrees and sunny here and the snowdrops are out. Why am I in front of computer?

Why is Junior Worlds Best for Vincent. Did you ask him? Shouldn't he get to decide what's best for him.? I bet if he given a choice- He would pick worlds.

And Nathan being at Worlds could mean the difference of Worlds gold this year or not. He also maybe could have medaled at last year's worlds.

 

[FlattFan]

So what if Nathan does not win worlds? He won 4CC and silver at the GPF... he has proven himself as a legit contender, and he clearly did not need last years worlds to get there. Regardless of if he wins or gets 4th, he still enters as a contender - and good for him! I just don't think he is likely to have done that much better if he had gone to worlds... he was/is good enough he did not need it in the end.

Sure worlds is great experience.... but I don't think it is as critical as some seem to think it is. Nathan can do it without worlds experience, so can others. I just don't think Vincent having a great fall season is that far fetched without worlds this year.

Last year World would help a lot. Actually, he should have won last year nationals as well. He became a contender because he added quad lutz and quad flip and improved his program components by running to Marina. It didn't just happen. Most people don't have that kind of progress so they want the experience at World.

 

[FlattFan]

All I see is Jason Brown fans think what's best for non-Jason skaters. LOL. So altruistic, these fans.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Why is Junior Worlds Best for Vincent. Did you ask him? Shouldn't he get to decide what's best for him.? I bet if he given a choice- He would pick worlds.

Wasn't he asked about this in the SP press conference at US Nationals....and didn't he say that Junior Worlds was his focus? Honestly he he has any sense he would be absolutely terrified of worlds - the amount of vitriol that the lower ranked skater will get if we don't have three spots is horrifying. It is not that far fetched for Vincent to be sane enough to want to avoid that.

You are right that we are not in his head... but that is kinda the point... we don't know if he would want worlds or not feel like he is comfortable with it...I don't think it is right to assume he would pick senior worlds.

 

[StitchMonkey]

Last year World would help a lot. Actually, he should have won last year nationals as well. He became a contender because he added quad lutz and quad flip and improved his program components by running to Marina. It didn't just happen. Most people don't have that kind of progress so they want the experience at World.

So you are saying not going to Worlds was a good thing? Because what you are describing sure sounds like a good thing to me. Good for him for working hard and earning it.

 

[Mrs. P]

All I see is Jason Brown fans think what's best for non-Jason skaters. LOL. So altruistic, these fans.

Okay send Vincent! Snap your fingers and make it happen! You know we are in a golden age of activism.

At this point, and really this whole time, I would have been fine with either person. I won't lie and say that as a fan I'm happy to see Jason's programs again and I have faith he will follow through. But Vincent had been chosen I'd be okay with that and wish him well cause I think he is a promising skater and he did place top two at nationals.

I don't claim to know what is best for USFS or either skater or have the desire to hyperanalyze the possible scenarios and results of this one committee decision.

I hope I'm clear.

 

[el henry]

I get what you're saying.

But this is a sport, not a telenova. Selection to the team should be straightforward, not a melodrama filled with plot-twists. Skaters should have to earn their spot, on the day. I'm not even a fan of petitioning to the team because of injury.

I like how US Track does it. The trials are what matter, end of story. If you finish in the Top 3 in your event, but don't have the A Standard, then you have until the date the team must be submitted to earn it. Otherwise the spot goes to the highest finisher with the standard.

In this example, Vincent would be going. Had he not earned the standard in Bavaria, then Jason would go. And the chips can fall where they may. But no athlete should feel like he's been politicked out of his opportunity, and the public should not be concerned about our national federation screwing with the natural order of things.

I agree with you, fellow dinosaur, about the "one comp" rule. Been following track almost as long as skating, and I appreciate how if you win Marathon trials, you're in. Even if you haven't won a meet all year.

Here is what I don't understand: Vincent would *not* be going under the one comp rule. Because he did not have world minimums. And nowhere have I seen that USFS holds open the selection for *senior* Worlds the hope that a skater will get World minimums at a later comp.

Why bend the rules that way? (and I don't care if the rules were enacted this year or if Vincent got sick at his one senior comp. These are the rules and this is a *sport* and all competitors skate to the same rules).

Maybe the rules should be changed for next year. But that's not this year?

 

[SelfOM]

Why is Junior Worlds Best for Vincent. Did you ask him? Shouldn't he get to decide what's best for him.? I bet if he given a choice- He would pick worlds.

And Nathan being at Worlds could mean the difference of Worlds gold this year or not. He also maybe could have medaled at last year's worlds.

If Nathan was at worlds and won a medal last year, we might not be even having this conversation becuase we would have 3 spots . Not sure if he would of beat Boyang, but a 4th, 5th, 6th still would of been enough for 3 spots.

edit - Actually Nathan losing to Adam would of gotton us 3 spots as well.

 

[bekalc]

So you are saying not going to Worlds was a good thing? Because what you are describing sure sounds like a good thing to me. Good for him for working hard and earning it.

And you think he wouldn't have worked on these things/done things if he had gone to worlds?

 

[bekalc]

I agree with you, fellow dinosaur, about the "one comp" rule. Been following track almost as long as skating, and I appreciate how if you win Marathon trials, you're in. Even if you haven't won a comp all year.

Here is what I don't understand: Vincent would *not* be going under the one comp rule. Because he did not have world minimums. And no where have I seen that USFS holds open the selection for senior Worlds the hope that a skater will get World minimums at a later comp.

Why bend the rules that way? (and I don't care if the rules were enacted this year or if Vincent got sick at his one senior comp. These are the rules and this is a *sport* and all competitors skate to the same rules).

Maybe the rules should be changed for next year. But that's not this year?

There's no reason USFSA couldn't have given him the opportunity to get the minimums at Bavarian. Just like Vincent did. They named him as an alternate on that basis, no reason they couldn't have named him to the team on that basis.

 

[el henry]

There's no reason USFSA couldn't have given him the opportunity to get the minimums at Bavarian. Just like Vincent did. They named him as an alternate on that basis, no reason they couldn't have named him to the team on that basis.

I'm not saying they couldn't have, I'm saying that they never ever (for seniors) have. So why make an exception here, if one is a believer in the "one comp" rule.

I don't think I'm going to convince anyone who holds deep beliefs that Vincent should go. And vice versa won't happen either. So it will be left to next year to see who goes to Olys. Just imagine the thread then.

 

[bekalc]

I'm not saying they couldn't have, I'm saying that they never ever (for seniors) have. So why make an exception here, if one is a believer in the "one comp" rule.

I don't think I'm going to convince anyone who holds deep beliefs that Vincent should go. And vice versa won't happen either. So it will be left to next year to see who goes to Olys. Just imagine the thread then.

When Cohen won 2nd at US Nationals, the selection committee named her to the team on the condition she medaled at JR Worlds qualified. So there IS precedent.

Second, as mentioned its not that Zhou hasn't shown ability to get the minimums. He just got injured at his Senior comp.

I believe in the idea of a selection committee. But I don't think selecting Brown-is necessarily a smart move. You have to give younger skaters opportunities when they earn them. Of course Brown is going to have higher PCS internationally than a skater just coming out of Juniors. Just like Nagasu had them over Edmonds. Lots of Nagasu fans screamed and questioned it. But at the end of the year once Edmonds got to Seniors she ended up with way higher SB. And the next year out performed Nagasu too.
So the selection committee was right to go with Polina.


But Zhou was doing technical content at Nationals that men are going to need if they are to be competitive on the World state and Jason hasn't shown that ability. I wanted to wait see if Zhou could get credit for those jumps internationally and see how Jason's quadless performance did. Before making such a choice.

A selection committee makes sense, but it would have been outright stupidness to name Brown over Chen to the world team. Zhou is not as skifull as Chen so its more questionable.

 

[TontoK]

I agree with you, fellow dinosaur, about the "one comp" rule. Been following track almost as long as skating, and I appreciate how if you win Marathon trials, you're in. Even if you haven't won a meet all year.

Here is what I don't understand: Vincent would *not* be going under the one comp rule. Because he did not have world minimums. And nowhere have I seen that USFS holds open the selection for *senior* Worlds the hope that a skater will get World minimums at a later comp.

Why bend the rules that way? (and I don't care if the rules were enacted this year or if Vincent got sick at his one senior comp. These are the rules and this is a *sport* and all competitors skate to the same rules).

Maybe the rules should be changed for next year. But that's not this year?

I'm forced to agree with you on that point. The rules for this season are what they are. I don't like them, but I am forced to accept them.

I still like the US Track and Field example I provided in my original post. "Vincent, you have earned the spot contingent on your earning the standard by roster-submission-date. Otherwise, the spot goes to Jason."

I just don't think the concept is that difficult. Right now, this is the perception: A bunch of USFSA hacks, most of whom never skated a competitive stroke in their lives, are in a closed room, absent any public scrutiny or accountability, selecting the team on the basis of personal preference or internal politics.

Now, maybe that's not fair. I'm certain they are doing their best to make the right choice for the federation. But there is no guarantee that their strategy is any better than my option of letting the chips fall where they may... and letting the competitive results stand means no one feels cheated.

 

[bekalc]

I'm forced to agree with you on that point. The rules for this season are what they are. I don't like them, but I am forced to accept them.

I still like the US Track and Field example I provided in my original post. "Vincent, you have earned the spot contingent on your earning the standard by roster-submission-date. Otherwise, the spot goes to Jason."

I just don't think the concept is that difficult. Right now, this is the perception: A bunch of USFSA hacks, most of whom never skated a competitive stroke in their lives, are in a closed room, absent any public scrutiny or accountability, selecting the team on the basis of personal preference or internal politics.

Now, maybe that's not fair. I'm certain they are doing their best to make the right choice for the federation. But there is no guarantee that their strategy is any better than my option of letting the chips fall where they may... and letting the competitive results stand means no one feels cheated.

Track and Field though isn't a judged sport.

 

[TontoK]

Track and Field though isn't a judged sport.

Never claimed it was. But the selection process is very straightforward.

And, I think it is the same method done by US Diving, which IS a judged sport.

Gymnastics, however, is selected by committee, but there's a very good reason for that. Namely, US Gym is MOST concerned about the Team medal, and need an appropriate mix of high scorers on individual apparatus.

 

[Jammers]

Vincent landed only one clean quad today. You think he will get the score he got in Bavaria if he did that at Worlds? He will get killed on PCS too.

 

[Mrs. P]

Of course Brown is going to have higher PCS internationally than a skater just coming out of Juniors.

Jason doesn't only have higher PCS than Vincent -- he has the highest among all the U.S. men and among the highest internationally. (He was 5th in PCS at 4CC)

His lowest PCS this season was 82.70, and that's with him completely bombing technically.

Even accounting for Nathan's rise in PCS at 4CC and GPF, Jason's average PCS is still the highest at 86.39 and then Nathan is second with 82.31. Jason also has the highest season's best PCS among the U.S. men (90.02).

From a PCS situation, it's a bit apples and oranges from the Mirai vs. Polina scenario in 2014.

 

[ice coverage]

Honestly it's not going to kill Vincent's career if he has to wait another year to go to Worlds. And Vincent has a chance to get more ranking points and an automatic GP berth by having a higher placement at Jr. Worlds. And I feel that junior worlds had a much higher profile than it did in Michelle or Tara's day. ...

I agree, but next year I don't want to hear, "How can USFSA possibly send Vincent to the Olympics? He hasn't even been tested at any major events!"

Based on USFS history, I think it is safe to assume that in the Olympic selection criteria, 2017 Worlds results will be given greater weight than 2017 Junior Worlds results.

The USFS decision not to give Vincent the 2017 Worlds spot means that he will be missing out on the opportunity to add 2017 Worlds results to his case for an Olympic spot.

And as we all know, the list of U.S. men competing for Olympic spots is long, and the battle will be intense, esp. if (heaven forfend) the U.S. has only two spots.

I am not lobbying for USFS to change its decision re 2017 Worlds. Just pointing out an additional consequence of the decision -- on another level from Tonto's comment.
I agree that it will not be fair for fans next year to hold it against Vincent that he does not have Worlds experience.
But more important, I hope that the USFS committee that selects the Olympic team will not hold it against Vincent that he does not have Worlds results.

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... I'm saying that they never ever (for seniors) have. ...

You keep stubbornly repeating this irrelevant comment.
So I will keep stubbornly repeating the explanation as to why it "never ever" has happened before. It is a NEW RULE THIS YEAR that scores from Junior comps do not count toward Senior TES minimums.

EXAMPLE:

If this season's new rule had been in effect in 2013-14, Polina would not have had the TES minimums for Sochi.

After she placed second at 2014 Nats, USFS would have had to scramble to send Polina to a senior international before Sochi.​

---

Anyway, congratulations to Vincent for winning the Bavarian Open and getting the Senior Worlds TES minimums .
Good luck to Vincent, Alex, and Andrew at Junior Worlds :yay:.

And congratulations to Nathan for winning Four Continents.
Good luck to Nathan and Jason at Worlds :yay:.

 

[bekalc]

Jason doesn't only have higher PCS than Vincent -- he has the highest among all the U.S. men and among the highest internationally. (He was 5th in PCS at 4CC)

His lowest PCS this season was 82.70, and that's with him completely bombing technically.

Even accounting for Nathan's rise in PCS at 4CC and GPF, Jason's average PCS is still the highest at 86.39 and then Nathan is second with 82.31. Jason also has the highest season's best PCS among the U.S. men (90.02).

From a PCS situation, it's a bit apples and oranges from the Mirai vs. Polina scenario in 2014.

Well when they competed at the same competition Nathan ended up with higher PCS than Jason. And Nathan's increase in PCS (quickly) is an example of how the more new skaters go out there and do well the more their PCS rise. I expect Brown to end up with way higher PCS than Zhou if both were to end up at Worlds.

But I also think even with mistakes Zhou will have higher TES. And I fear Jason could be creamed on TES by the rest of the field.