2016-2017 State of U.S. Men Figure Skating

[karne]

As a Jason fan, I am struck that in 2016, he petitioned for an assignment to the World team. And ....

On the day that the 2016 Worlds assignments were made and announced, Jason had not yet returned to training.
So on the day of the assignments, Jason was by no means ready to compete at Worlds.
Many Jason fans were disappointed (understatement ) that his petition was denied.
They had hoped that USFS would go ahead and give Jason the assignment to 2016 Worlds -- with the understanding that he then would move forward with a training plan to be ready by the time of the competition itself.

Ironic that some of these Jason fans are insistent that it would have been untenable for USFS to go ahead and give Vincent an assignment to 2017 Senior Worlds -- with the understanding that he would need to earn the Senior Worlds minimums.
I am not aware of any published USFS rule requiring Senior Worlds minimums to already be in hand before an assignment to Senior Worlds.

I was not one who thought he should have got the petition granted - as soon as I heard he wasn't even back on the ice yet, I knew it wouldn't be granted and nor should it be.

I am vehement that this, this year, was the correct decision. I will remain so. No-one is going to shame me out of it by whatever means they try. Jason is the best choice. End of story.

Okay he was sixth. That was with mistakes from a lot of guys above him. He would have been fourth at Euros-that is with poor skates with a lot of guys above him too. It is NOT a good sign.

*snort* This is getting ridiculous. Do you really think we're going to get to Worlds and every single skater is going to skate perfectly clean? Of course they won't! Being able to take advantage of that situation is NOT a weakness it is STRENGTH.

I realize folks think I am being a Jason hater but I am really not.

Sure you're not. :sarcasm:

 

[geige]

I was not one who thought he should have got the petition granted - as soon as I heard he wasn't even back on the ice yet, I knew it wouldn't be granted and nor should it be.

I am vehement that this, this year, was the correct decision. I will remain so. No-one is going to shame me out of it by whatever means they try. Jason is the best choice. End of story.



*snort* This is getting ridiculous. Do you really think we're going to get to Worlds and every single skater is going to skate perfectly clean? Of course they won't! Being able to take advantage of that situation is NOT a weakness it is STRENGTH.



Sure you're not. :sarcasm:

Oh, the double standards.

 

[ice coverage]

Thanks for clarifying, I think I remember hearing about it. Sounds like he should be healed up for worlds.
And yes, 6th in the world is pretty damn good since also coming back from being away for a whole season. Good for Jason. Again, nothing against him, I can just be clueless at times.

If Jason succeeds in placing sixth at Worlds, he will make a lot of people very happy . Fingers crossed.

So far, we know only that he has placed sixth at Four Continents.

And BTW, Jason was not away for a whole season (neither in 2015-16 nor in 2016-17).

---

I was not one who thought he should have got the petition granted - as soon as I heard he wasn't even back on the ice yet, I knew it wouldn't be granted and nor should it be. ...

Glad to know it.

 

[Mrs. P]

Okay he was sixth. That was with mistakes from a lot of guys above him. He would have been fourth at Euros-that is with poor skates with a lot of guys above him too. It is NOT a good sign.

Sure if a bunch of guys skate really really poorly he may make top ten but he needs others to make mistakes lots of them. And he cannot make any mistakes.

I realize folks think I am being a Jason hater but I am really not.

And again, I'm not going to call you a Jason hater, cause I don't think you are -- and even if you were -- I don't really care one way or another. And calling you names would only invalidate my points further. So let's just establish, that at least to me, you're not a Jason hater and that's not on the table for this discussion, OK?

Your concerns are valid, your lack-of-confidence in Jason's ability is also understandable. However, if you take into account of the scores from Euros and 4CC. Jason is 9th. If you want to throw in Denis Ten's score from Universade than he's 10th. 10+1 = 11 Two spots to spare.

Worse case scenario is that that a whole bunch of skaters, including those who have been inconsistent -- Han Yan, Keiji Tanaka, Michel Brezina, for a few -- this season, are all going to show up at Worlds, HIT EVERY SINGLE PLANNED ELEMENT and that Jason bombs his skates and ends up in 15th place.

Best case scenario -- I'd say 6th...this would mean beating those he beat at 4CC plus Ten, Koylada and Kovtun. This assumes Jason is healthy can land everything and all that. I've crunched the numbers, it's not impossible.

I believe statistically, it's not unreasonable for Jason to end up somewhere in the middle and help Nathan get those three spots.

Again, we'll see.

 

[TontoK]

Re Team Torgashev:
I am another who has high hopes for him :yay:. Also for Krasnozhon :yay:.

I think we should start a charter club and declare ourselves founding members, so we can be condescending and rude to those who are late catching the Torgeshev train.

All joking aside, he's only 15 but really doesn't look like it. Already has some good jumps, plus I like his style on the ice. Power and deep edges. I really think he'll be something special.

 

[el henry]

I just went back into the Jason fan thread, Posts 5600 and up, regarding Jason's denied petition to Worlds and saw absolutely no outrage. Certainly not from me. Or any of the other regulars.

Sticking to my guns, and the World Minimums argument regarding Vincent, cause I'm stubborn that way, but no irony here.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Jason has five weeks to Worlds. He is far from optimal condition right now, but he still managed to place well here considering. Jason isn't always perfect but he does not melt down nor does he give up on a performance. He's an underrated competitor and can provide solid scores for a top ten placement even with mistakes.

 

[ice coverage]

I just went back into the Jason fan thread, Posts 5600 and up, regarding Jason's denied petition to Worlds and saw absolutely no outrage. Certainly not from me. Or any of the other regulars.

Sticking to my guns, and the World Minimums argument regarding Vincent, cause I'm stubborn that way, but no irony here ...

I did not use the word "outrage." I have glanced back at the Jason thread, and I see allusions to the "bad decision," etc. Not from karne or you, so I concede that my irony radar should have gone off only on a more general level. Apologies.

(Perhaps Kori's comments at TCC have skewed my memory somewhat .)

Anyway, I have no problem with anyone's opinion (along with the USFS decision) that Jason was the right choice for the World team -- but I will stubbornly disagree that the Senior Worlds minimums should have played a part in the USFS decision. And I don't think they did.

 

[Jammers]

I don't normally follow the Junior Circuit at all, but I am going to watch the men's event this year. I especially want to see Andrew Torgeshev, who I think might be the next big deal on the technical side. I was so impressed him at US Nats. I cannot imagine what he might look like a year down the road.

Torgashev could end up as a better allround skater then Nathan if he keeps improving. His skating skills are much better then Nathan's at the same age and he already is a good performer too. Now whether he can do multiple different quads like Nathan is still a question mark but at 15 he's at that age where male skaters can make huge leaps in their skating over just months.

 

[bekalc]

And again, I'm not going to call you a Jason hater, cause I don't think you are -- and even if you were -- I don't really care one way or another. And calling you names would only invalidate my points further. So let's just establish, that at least to me, you're not a Jason hater and that's not on the table for this discussion, OK?

Your concerns are valid, your lack-of-confidence in Jason's ability is also understandable. However, if you take into account of the scores from Euros and 4CC. Jason is 9th. If you want to throw in Denis Ten's score from Universade than he's 10th. 10+1 = 11 Two spots to spare.

Worse case scenario is that that a whole bunch of skaters, including those who have been inconsistent -- Han Yan, Keiji Tanaka, Michel Brezina, for a few -- this season, are all going to show up at Worlds, HIT EVERY SINGLE PLANNED ELEMENT and that Jason bombs his skates and ends up in 15th place.

Best case scenario -- I'd say 6th...this would mean beating those he beat at 4CC plus Ten, Koylada and Kovtun. This assumes Jason is healthy can land everything and all that. I've crunched the numbers, it's not impossible.

I believe statistically, it's not unreasonable for Jason to end up somewhere in the middle and help Nathan get those three spots.

Again, we'll see.

I never said I thought Jason couldn't end up in the top 10. I think he certainly could. But I don't think its a guarantee. And I absolutely think sixth isn't happening this year. Chen wasn't there last year and Jason just finished 20 points behind the top 5 men at Four Continents and several made mistakes.

People mention the Season Best being eight and that was with a landed underrotated quad. Okay, but Jason's scores at Four Continents. Sixth isn't happening this year baring a disaster. Chen wasn't there. Jason finished 20 points behind the top 5 men here and they made major mistakes.

It's not that I don't believe Brown. I think he will probably compete well (but not perfect). I think he's a gorgeous skater. I just think he's very limited right now. I would question the idea of any skater mastering an element that they have been saying they would master for year magically mastering it.

It's not a personal thing. I don't think Rippon's ever going to master the quad lutz.

Also I have to point out politicking. I have no doubt Jason/Adam some of those PCS were policing. There's some automatic PCS points that come from being the number one guy of a major federation. Also the USFSA had a pretty consistent message. The quads aren't the be end and end all.

But guess what know. If they want to win and they want to win OGM next year. USFSA has to argue. It's a sport. And sure Fernandez, Chan, Uno, Hanyu are more pleasing to watch skaters, But look at Chen's quads."

IF I am another federation official. I would say. Okay I concede your point. But shouldn't then the PCS for my skater over here who is attempting quads be closer to Jason Brown's PCS scores. I mean after all if the quads matter, Brown's not doing any"

I don't know how USFSA makes both arguments. And at the end of the day Olympic Gold more important than three men's spots.


For me its also just I am fine with team selections but I think Nationals should only be bypassed in obvious cases. I don't think the Zhou vs Brown case is obvious at all. And I think there's benefits to getting Zhou out there learning how to master that content in high level competition. That's what a lot of federations due. They get their young talent out there early. Sotnikova/Tukt didn't earn the spots their first time at Worlds. But one became an Olympic champ, the other World.

 

[FlattFan]

Were you not paying attention at Nationals?

Jason is being sent to Worlds because he is already healing and will be at 100% for Worlds. And he is still the best pure skater the US has, still scores huge, and will never let you down in the competition arena. He's reliable and solid, and you can always count on him to skate well.

He finished sixth, people. Sixth. That's a great result with everything considered. There's no reason he won't be in the top 10 at Worlds.

Who said he will be 100% at Worlds? Even the best doctor can't guarantee this. Typical head in the sand response.
Sixth but 20 points lower than 5th. And he robbed Vincent's spot.

 

[Sai Bon]

Who said he will be 100% at Worlds? Even the best doctor can't guarantee this. Typical head in the sand response.
Sixth but 20 points lower than 5th. And he robbed Vincent's spot.

All you need is Nathan = 1st and Jason = 12th or Nathan = 2nd and Jason = 11th, right? He doesn't have to be in the top 10...

 

[FlattFan]

All you need is Nathan = 1st and Jason = 12th or Nathan = 2nd and Jason = 11th, right? He doesn't have to be in the top 10...

Again, not about that. Vincent would like to participate at World. U never know about injury or whatever coming up so he deserves this chance today.

 

[Jaana]

Jason doesn't only have higher PCS than Vincent -- he has the highest among all the U.S. men and among the highest internationally. (He was 5th in PCS at 4CC)

Actually, it seems to me the highest PCS among all current US men has Chen, if we are not counting Brown´s inflated score from Skate America plus this is an international competition where they both were:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/fc2017/SEG002.HTM

Anyway, the PCS score seems to rise if a skater gets real international results (the reputation grows) and now after 4CC Chen´s will have an extra boost at Worlds, I´d believe.

I think that Zhou should have been sent to Helsinki (they should have waited for the results from Bavaria), because international experience is very important for a young skater to start competing at seniors. Next year we have the Olympics and there he would need this experience and reputation.

 

[TMC]

Actually, it seems to me the highest PCS among all current US men has Chen, if we are not counting Brown´s inflated score from Skate America plus this is an international competition where they both were:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/fc2017/SEG002.HTM

Anyway, the PCS score seems to rise if a skater gets real international results (the reputation grows) and now after 4CC Chen´s will have an extra boost at Worlds, I´d believe.

I think that Zhou should have been sent to Helsinki (they should have waited for the results from Bavaria), because international experience is very important for a young skater to start competing at seniors. Next year we have the Olympics and there he would need this experience and reputation.

Yes, Nathan also has more GP medals if you don't count Jason's two silvers and two bronzes. Nathan also has one more Nationals gold, if you don't count Jason's gold from 2015. Interestingly enough, Nathan and Jason have the same amount of Jr Worlds medals - both bronzes - if you don't count Jason's Jr Worlds silver from 2013.

Please.

 

[Jaana]

Yes, Nathan also has more GP medals if you don't count Jason's two silvers and two bronzes. Nathan also has one more Nationals gold, if you don't count Jason's gold from 2015. Interestingly enough, Nathan and Jason have the same amount of Jr Worlds medals - both bronzes - if you don't count Jason's Jr Worlds silver from 2013.

Please.

LOL, but Brown has not won any gold medal from a major competition like 4CC, has he? Or even made the GPF ever? Chen did it at his first senior season and got a silver medal...

 

[TMC]

LOL, but Brown has not won any gold medal from a major competition like 4CC, has he? Or even made the GPF ever? Chen did it at his first senior season and got a silver medal...

That's not the point. The point is that you can't cherry pick results just to suit your agenda.

 

[Jaana]

That's not the point. The point is that you can't cherry pick results just to suit your agenda.

That was just the result from SA, which is notorious in promoting US skaters and secondly Chen was not there. I thought a better example would be something international where they both were in this season = 4CC.

And this IS true: Brown has never been in GPF where Chen won a silver medal in his first senior year...

 

[TMC]

That was just the result from SA, which is notorious in promoting US skaters and secondly Chen was not there. I thought a better example would be something international where they both were in this season = 4CC.

And this IS true: Brown has never been in GPF where Chen won a silver medal in his first senior year...

Then why not just say that instead? It just doesn't come across very credible when you dismiss results randomly. There's no need for that, Nathan has already achieved great things compared to Jason. You don't need to dismiss Jason's achievements to promote Nathan's.

 

[Jaana]

Then why not just say that instead? It just doesn't come across very credible when you dismiss results randomly. There's no need for that, Nathan has already achieved great things compared to Jason. You don't need to dismiss Jason's achievements to promote Nathan's.

My first posting was kind of response to a posting by Mrs P, where she promotes Brown´s achievements and selects areas where she can do it (as far as I have understood).